POSE Running anyone??

Discussion in 'Barefoot & Minimalist Running' started by SaraLord, Mar 3, 2011.

  1. SaraLord

    SaraLord Administrator
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    I know I floated a POSE question out here a while back but the issue rises again. My local running club had our monthly meeting last night and the guest speaker was the only POSE coach in NM. He was a nice fellow and wore VFF. After a brief outline of POSE and why it works, I asked him a question, prefaced with ID'ing myself as a BF runner, about stride length and if this was part of this method. I was curious as a short stride is for me, one of the elemental points of BF running after a mid-foot strike.

    He kind of poo poo'd (is that even spelled right?) barefoot running and said you could do pose in any running shoe as long as it didn't have a wide heel (keep in mind he does ultra's in VFF's). A short stride was, according to him, one result of using the POSE method, but it wasn't emphasized. He talked more about the falling forward/gravity elements and made a point several times to let us know that BF running wasn't that great, but POSE was. He also specifically said that in POSE, you land on your forefoot - I'm pretty sure I didn't misunderstand this point).

    Given my hideous shin splints of late (which means I need to change something) I was really looking forward to what he had to say (before he said it).

    Thoughts anyone?
     

  2. Abide

    Abide Barefooters
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    If you really like to

    If you really like to over-analyze your running I would recommend it :)

    For example he talks about the lean (notice though that the angle to run a 4 minute mile is 5 degrees, not much of a lean if you ask me)

    http://www.posetech.com/training/archives/000146.html

    Are you getting shin splints running barefoot?
     
  3. SaraLord

    SaraLord Administrator
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    Nah, I was in huaraches,

    Nah, I was in huaraches, which have served me so well to this point. I'm hiding them in the closet for now and am back to basics. Barefoot only, which means I have to reacquaint my feet with pavement and tiny bits of gravel after the winter.

    Given that I over-analyze everything else, it would be nice to just run and hope that going without my beloved huaraches will allow my feet and the rest of me to work it out.

    The shin splint was pretty rough, just walking at the endof the day really hurt and it came on three days after my last run, which was over two weeks ago. It feels fine now - we'll see.

    advice and admonishments are welcome.

    Thanks Abide
     

  4. Abide

    Abide Barefooters
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    Typically shin splints are

    Typically shin splints are caused by landing to far in front of your center of mass. Just for sh!ts and giggles here is what Dr. R says. Which I think is very valid.

    http://www.posetech.com/training/archives/000371.html

    I think going barefoot will help a lot as well as maintaining an upright posture.

    Jimmy probably has a lot more advice than me though.
     
  5. Piggyback RidePlease

    Piggyback RidePlease Barefooters
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    I read a lot of the POSE

    I read a lot of the POSE stuff and tried it a few years ago. I think that they miss out some of the critical things to do with proper running that are really emphasised on the how-to barefoot guide. If I'd just gone barefoot I would not have picked up yet another easy to avoid (in hind sight) injury.

    I think that POSE has mostly re-packaged what are really barefoot running techniques as a "special fab' new technique" and flogged it to people. Sadly I was one of those they flogged it to for a while :stare:

    At least I know better now :smile:
     
  6. SaraLord

    SaraLord Administrator
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    Thanks - the Dude Abides

    Thanks - the Dude Abides
     

  7. Paleo

    Paleo Barefooters
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    I, too, tried POSE a few

    I, too, tried POSE a few years ago. I did it in my usual way: When I get excited about something, I do enough research for a Ph.D. dissertation about it.

    I came to the conclusion that POSE is generally right, but only because he "discovered" what happens naturally when you run barefoot or minimalist shoes.

    Eventually, I found the clubbiness--we've swallowed the truth, and DR. Romanov is our savior--annoying. (I mean no one offense, but I don't go for the true believer thing.) I think you witnessed a bit of this when the Speaker poo-pooed barefoot running. The constant use of the Dr. title is also annoying in an American context (he is not a medical doctor).

    His claims about gravity also drove me bats. Romanov writes in many places that you are actually getting energy out of the Fall. He really seems to believe that you are getting something for free. But, physics doesn't allow a free ride. Any energy "gained" in the fall, has to be given back by the runner somewhere, otherwise the fall continues until you are kissing asphalt.

    Also, the Fall & center of gravity business are overblown--because they are nothing special. You have to stay over your center gravity, otherwise you fall over. Once you start landing on your forefoot, you will land automatically quite close to the optimal point--as long as you are not overstriding or pushing off. It is true that heal landing puts you way behind the CoG, and that is a problem. But, if you emphasize things like short stride, quick steps, forefoot landing etc., you don't have to think about something as abstract as Centery of Gravity.

    But...,

    I did a lot of his exercises and they helped my running. Furthermore, one of his suggestion's turned out to be gold: barefoot running as a way to improve your POSE form. That's what got me started--even if only intermittantly. After I came back to running (following a TMTS injury), I thought, well let's go barefoot all the way, so that I can be sure that my feet and lower legs get real strong.

    And even now, when I don't feel quite "on", I will return to some of his ideas like concentrating on the "pull" or running really compactly. His exercises are quite good for building "barefoot" compatible muscle memory.

    Furthermore, the perception of Falling is the same as "leading with your hips" which is commonly recommended as part of BFR. The straight torso and bending of the knees, the "Pose", are likewise characteristics of good BF form.

    But, you don't have to buy his book or the CD-Rom. Unless they have changed it, the website has lots of articles and videos that give you everything you need. (But, you have to read about 25 articles to put all of the elements together.)

    As to your shin splints:

    I would recommend backing off on your mileage a bit. Go ahead and try some of the POSE excercises, especially the things about pulling the leg up. I would also look at whether you are not putting tension into your forefoot when landing. Are you maybe landing too much up on the toes and not letting the heal hit the ground? Another thought? Are you curling your toes up too much?

    Best of luck with it.

    Cheers

    Paleo
     
  8. SaraLord

    SaraLord Administrator
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    Thanks Paleo,I will scrounge

    Thanks Paleo,

    I will scrounge through the POSE website for tips and exercises. Your perspective clicked for me. I don't drink kool-aid, literally or figuratively, so the mindset wouldn't work very well.

    On shin splints - I agree, mileage will be cut back, tomorrow will be my first day out in 2+ weeks. Barefoot only (the rattlesnakes aren't out yet -so no worries there). It could be landing tension, but my toes are spread like a spider monkey - that is actually one of my favorite things about running now, relaxed happy toes.

    I appreciate the pointers and think I'm in good shape to start over.

    Any opinions on a gravel bucket?
     

  9. Paleo

    Paleo Barefooters
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    No, never tried the gravel

    No, never tried the gravel bucket thing. Sorry, no experience there.

    Hope your shins heal up soon.

    Cheers

    Paleo
     
  10. Abide

    Abide Barefooters
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    The gravel bucket ok

    The gravel bucket ok depending on the surface you will be running on. Just don't beat up your feet too much and then have a bad run.
     
  11. DNEchris

    DNEchris Barefooters
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    I think running is more of an

    I think running is more of an art than a science and Pose requires too much analysis. Just my twopenn'orth!
     
  12. JosephTree

    JosephTree Barefooters
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    Um...to digress: What

    Um...to digress: What conceivable difference could huaraches make compared to BF when it comes to stepping on rattlesnakes. Besides, if you're looking to avoid nasty rocks, glass, syringes (in select locales, perhaps) etc, wouldn't you similarly go to some lengths to avoid a bloody snake in your path? I imagine I could adjust my stride length up to about 10 feet to accomodate one of those critters.
     
  13. stomper

    stomper Guest

    POSE is similar to chi

    POSE is similar to chi running in that it's a brand, with a guru, and there is one "correct" way to do it. They teach similar things but with different emphases -- one might even say market segments. POSE seems to be directed at a more analytical, athletic (competitive?) kind of person, whereas chi running is for, uh, those who can be gulled by the "mysteries" of the orient?

    I don't mean to be facetious, as I would probably fall in the latter group, and did indeed learn much from chi running (especially Dryer's excellent book). I think such gurus do know a lot; they do have a lot to teach. But the idea that their secret formula is ideal for everyone is a bit radical, and involves all sorts of assumptions. That's what annoys me about POSE and the like.

    Hmm, I guess you could really say something like that about any religion. Or at least, I could. :)

    Let us know what fixes your shin splints!
     
  14. Neil_D

    Neil_D Chapter Presidents
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    I think the Pose Method book

    I think the Pose Method book was one of the best running books I have read, ok so if formalises barefoot running but don't forget that book has been around a long time before any barefoot running books or even the 'movement' started.

    I think it is great that Romanov actually saw the problem and set about writing how to run correctly whether with shoes or without.

    Some people have called the book over-verbose but I don't find that the case. I have read the book twice and picked up on things that I didn't understand the first time. The pull of the hamstring as soon as you are aware of the foot contacting the ground, the forward lean letting gravity pull you forward.

    I believe that much of the techniques that the book teaches have been tested and make running more efficient and lower the heartrate over any given distance.

    I still practice the drills at least once a fortnight, it sharpens my running and gets for form back into shape if I ever get sloppy.

    As I have said before just because barefoot running is natural does not mean that it comes naturally to everyone.

    Abide posted in another thread asking about how many aspiring barefoot runners had given up due to injuries etc, well, if I had not read the Pose book I may have been one of them.

    I don't begrudge Romanov earning $20 for a book that has probably helped many people run in a less injurious fashion.



    Neil
     
  15. stomper

    stomper Guest

    Neil, it's interesting to

    Neil, it's interesting to compare your last comment to mine. They can both be true simultaneously. Instruction from a real guru (and I mean that in the good way, as in a person who is studied and wise and a leader) did help you a lot.

    It's just the message, more often voiced by acolytes than the gurus themselves, that this is the best way, the only way, etc. that is annoying, and I think ultimately counterproductive.
     
  16. Second Wind

    Second Wind Barefooters
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    I'm going to go with Stomper

    I'm going to go with Stomper - I don't think Pose is bad, but I think (as with Everything) you have to take the good out, and leave the bad. Find what works, and find what makes sense, but don't follow it all hook-line-and-sinker just because "expert A" said so. I found there to be some good information in Pose, and some good info in Chi, and some good info in _ _ _ _, etc.

    I think the best form (most natural form) is kind of a hybrid of all those ideas. But here's the secret: if you pull out the best of each of those things, analyze them, put them on a spreadsheet and focus everypart of your body to following this new formula, what you will find is that it matches how you would Naturally run if you just kicked off your shoes, thought of Nothing, and ran.

    I like the "pull" method that is presented in pose, and the idea that we all agree with of keeping your feet directly underneath you, etc. But the act of pulling your foot all the way up to a 90 degree underneath you (to me) is crazy. It's wasted energy, wasted efficiency, and provides no gains. ie, take the good, leave the bad (what doesn't make sense).
     
  17. dodgy

    dodgy Barefooters
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    Second Wind wrote:I like the



    If Pose did say that it would indeed be crazy....
     
  18. Barefoot TJ

    Barefoot TJ Administrator
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    That sounds difficult to me

    That sounds difficult to me too. I don't have the energy to run like a bunny rabbit.
     
  19. mokaman

    mokaman Chapter Presidents
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    On the Pose website a few

    On the Pose website a few years ago they were against barefoot running ...now they are neutral as far I can tell.
     
  20. dodgy

    dodgy Barefooters
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