Concurrent Strength Training & Running 2015: Eight-Week Workout Cycle IV

i now retreat back behind sid's fortress of advice and await the results of the 10-day wait.

and thanks to your little prod, i have now figured out how to get pictures on here, so maybe i'll take a couple pictures to satiate your curiosity.

 

Ha, hey, didn't mean to sound antagonistic or testy. I just wanted to state my case clearly, to amplify the usefulness of the concerned comments. The various suggestions and counterarguments have really helped sharpen my thinking on this, and have helped guide me in my amateur internet searches. I think if it weren't for the clicking/popping/locking, I might also conclude that it's best just to leave it alone, but from what I've read, it is probably unhealthy to allow the joint to remain in this condition. The pain has largely dissipated because I am not running or walking much, but I don't think that indicates any kind of repair or recovery. Just means the damaged tissue, or rather, the neighboring bone tissue, hasn't been irritated as much lately, but the cartilage is still damaged and will continue to get worse over time. This has been the trend up until now, although there have been several variables at play, so it's hard to be sure exactly what is going on.

Still, it kind of gives me the heebie jeebies to think of them poking tubes into the interior of my knee joint. Recalls that scene in Papillon. And I don't like the idea of them removing a part of me, even if it's damaged and causing further damage. But it is outpatient surgery, and it's non-elective so I think insurance will cover most of it, and it's very low risk.

Anyway, any counterarguments more finely focused to the particulars of my case would be greatly appreciated. I still haven't made up my mind on this, and it would be great to have a maximal amount of background knowledge under my belt when I see the superdoc a week from Monday. It will help me make a final decision, whether or not he recommends the same treatment options that the second doc recommended.

Don't mean to be nosy, but I like seeing what others' home gym solutions are.

 

Post in Ask The Docs

 

My case is pretty similar to Ronnie B's: https://www.thebarefootrunners.org/threads/end-of-the-road.18473/

Three weeks later, still no response.

 

He asks specifically about stem cell therapy, which probably <10 people in the world could give an informed answer.

Yours appears to be a more general, "is it okay to continue running or walking?"

 

Right, but until Ronnie B gets any sort of response, I don't see the point in posting a variation on his theme. Seems like the docs aren't interested or are unable to address this sort of issue. My idea was to wait for a response, and then, based on that, delve more into the specifics of my case if they weren't addressed in the response to Ronnie's query. Because basically, we have the same problem: cartilage tear and some degree of osteoarthritis, with at least one overlapping solution proposed--stem cell therapy. I would expect any doc's response would refer, at least in passing, to surgery options as well. But just digging around the internet, I think I've become generally aware of what the medical options and opinions are. It's funny to think a month ago I didn't even know what meniscus cartilage was. In any case, at this point, I'm mostly interested in how people who are not doctors, and who have not followed surgery recommendations for the same issue, have progressed. I also appreciate folks like BA offering up his opinion or intuitions even though he doesn't have this issue, or Dutchie's suggestion, even though his damage was caused differently. And I appreciate your findings on walking versus running, even though it wasn't clear to me what the recommendation would be for me based on those findings. It's very useful to get these alternative perspectives! It's unfortunate the Ask Docs didn't respond. The ones TJ has gathered tend to think outside the box, so it would've been interesting to hear their take on this issue, no doubt. In any case, thanks for the suggestion.

 

Ronnie's question won't get a response, ever. It's far beyond the scope of Ask The Docs, and the expertise of those on the panel.
Yours should get a response, and if it doesn't, ask TJ to email the docs to take a look, like she's done for others in the past.

 

Are any of you getting the Street Strider ad every time you go on YouTube? I was and managed to get rid of it by going into setting and telling google to only show me untargeted ads!

 

Since getting the barbell, I found it challenging to lift the weight off the floor, above my head, then sit down with it. So, I was doing them standing up.

When I was sitting, my butt and feet formed a tripod, feet at about 45' to the body and somewhat close to the body.

I guess once I have the rack put together, I'll have to try it out both ways.

 

That looks nice!

I have this one, too. It's a torture device. A lot of people complain about how much it hurts in the reviews. Weenies!
I use it along my spine to loosen up places that the knobble can't reach. Yeah, it gets really intense!
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002C8LMAK

I'm finding that the deep tissue massage that I get every 3 weeks is nice, but no real permanent changes. I've signed up for a few sessions of Rolfing. We'll see how that goes!

 

http://grantland.com/features/kobe-bryant-dr-chris-renna-regenokine-knee-treatment/

Consider an influential 2002 trial that compared arthroscopic surgery for knee osteoathritis to a sham surgery, in which people were randomly assigned to have their knee cut open but without any additional treatment. (The surgeon who performed all the operations was the orthopedic specialist for an NBA team.) The data was clear: there was no measurable difference between those who received the real surgery and those who received the fake one. If anything, those in the treatment group actually appeared worse off than those in the placebo group. Nevertheless, surgeons continue to perform hundreds of thousands of arthroscopic procedures to treat this chronic knee condition.

Sorry I don't have much to add, PRP would probably be what I would try initially if I was in your shoes. Which someday soon I will probably be. I have the same issues in my genes with arthritis, mainly related to doing stupid shit often and not being able to say no.

 

http://knee1.com/forum/Meniscus_Injury_and_Repair

 

Thanks for the responses!

Still doubtful, but I'll give it a shot. Mis' well wait till I get the recommendations of the third doc though, for thoroughness. Are any of the BRS docs orthopedists? The Chiros tend to think of everything in terms of kinetic chains and muscle imbalances.

Here's an interesting exchange between a commentator and Dr. Mark (http://naturalrunningcenter.com/2013/05/06/video-the-principles-natural-running/):

I rarely have knee pain except for when I stop running for months and then start again then the joint feels sore for a few days. My question is am I doing serious damage to my knee by running with no cartilage that may affect me later? By the way I’m almost 56 years old.
Reply
MarkC
February 16, 2015 at 12:22 am
Randy if the cartilage is staying good and no pain then you are good. meniscus likes loading and if done biomechanically correct it will keep it robust and healthy. congrats on the IM finishes! Mark

This seems to jibe with my experience and BA's observations/intuitions. It's interesting that Dr. Mark says that the meniscus likes loading.

Most of those posts were about acute tears. Mine is degenerative. Some of the people had their condition worsen with repairs or meniscectomies where a large part of the cartilage was cut away. I don't think all orthopedists are created equal. It's probably like the Amazon customer reviews, where someone with a bad experience is much more likely to respond.

Again, there's a difference between arthroscopic surgery for osteoarthritis and for meniscus tears. The influential study comparing sham versus real arthroscopic surgery was for the former. My osteoarthritis, from what I've understood so far, has been caused by the degeneration of my meniscus cartilage, which has exposed the articular cartilage and caused it to wear away. Plus, arthroscopic surgery is kind of a blanket term. It describes a minimally invasive technique using tiny cameras and surgical tools. It doesn't tell you exactly what was done in each instance.

PRP or something similar sounds promising, but probably works best for younger athletes with acute injuries. I would be happy to give it a shot though, if that's what the third doc ends up recommending. Might be out-of-pocket though. Still worth it of course.

If you have the ceiling space, I'm not sure why you'd want to do them seated. I only do seated presses out of necessity, or out of embarrassment, since I could do them outside I guess. I also form a tripod, but with feet wider, bracing against the power rack, but I still have trouble getting stable.

 

Ask the superdoc about this. It wouldn't unimaginable that researchers develop a way to re/grow a replacement meniscus in 10 years. (I wouldn't know about the feasibility of this, but your superdoc might.) If so, then I personally would want the most conservative treatment now, so that I would be a good candidate if something better came along.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4496486/

After all, they're starting to grow organs in the lab.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegw...-lab-grown-organs-vaginas-noses-now-possible/

 

Rogue is selling used stuff from the Crossfit Games at a slight discount.
http://www.roguefitness.com/deals-closeout/closeout?cat3=dealscloseout_closeout_allgamesgear_id_9756

I pretty much have all I need/want at this point. I still take a peak at Miscellaneous Bars every once in a while, but I haven't seen any Ohio Power Bars in stock, since I got mine. There was one listed the week after I got mine, but that's no longer there.
http://www.roguefitness.com/miscellaneous-bars

 

Assembly of the power rack begins now!

 

Yah, I agree. That's part of the reason I'm willing to give up running immediately; to conserve the joint as much as possible. My understanding is that surgery would be to remove whatever is causing the popping/locking, which in turn may be damaging my articular cartilage.

In any case, thanks for the links! More food for thought and background information going into my appointment. The more questions I can ask the doc the better.

Good luck with the power rack!

 

Power rack assembled!
A few misadventures in the process. All good now.

 

so, here is my super-awesome setup that bare lee has just been dying to see. (as opposed to dyeing wherein he ends up looking like a swirl of orange and brown.)

first are the "real weights". those are socks over the business end of the racks. the racks, and especially the loading safety hooks, make a horrible rattling that contributes to waking up children so the socks cut down on that. i have my scratch-paper logs taped to the wall along with the newest innovation: a pencil on a string! i finally got around to gluing the foam mats to the chunks of dense sawdust/glue-board so i don't have to move as many items around getting ready for deadlift time (until the glue fails, of course).



and the machine that gets used for only one exercise.... hopefully my sweetie will make good use of it once we get our boxes unpacked. anyways, there was an existing pegboard on the wall, so i figured the handles could go on there instead of collecting dust on the floor.

 

Looks good!

I'll take a few snapshots of mine, when I get it all set up. I'm waiting on a few more things to arrive.