Concurrent Strength Training & Running 2015: Eight-Week Workout Cycle IV

Discussion in 'Training Information/Training Regimens' started by Bare Lee, Jun 20, 2015.

  1. Sid

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    Still haven't unpacked the rack parts. I did take a look inside one box that was a bit crushed. Apparently, they double boxed some smaller boxes in one larger box, so all is good. The j hooks are solid, weighing about 10lbs each.

    Have a family get together this weekend, so probably won't get to it until next week. I suppose my lack of time reinforces my decision to get home equipment.
     
  2. Sid

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    Some people build a plywood lifting platform.
     
  3. Sid

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    The rumble roller is nice. I also like the Knobble. It's cheap enough that I can have one at work and at at home. I also like it because I don't have to roll around on the floor.
    :D
    http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005P0Q1TE
     
  4. Barefoot Dama

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    am gonna get me one of those-they look nice;) But, I like rolling around on the floor because it allows me to put a lot more pressure on the owies.
    I have this one it works wonderfully on the shins-I loves it!

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007IBWZC/ref=pd_luc_rh_sim_01_01_t_img_lh?ie=UTF8&psc=1
     

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  5. Abide

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    Hey Dama, yeah I do have a rumble roller and I use it and a PVC roller almost every day. I haven't sat on a lacrosse ball in a while, its probably a good idea for me to work the glutes and hips with it as you suggest.

    However I ran a race this weekend and I think I have the ITBS under control, knock on wood. So I am not sure what exactly is helping, since I am again throwing everything at it all at once? But there is progress so something is working.
     
  6. Abide

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    Yeah that's the complicated thing about progressions. It's difficult to know if starting low and building slow is the most effective method, but its definitely safer. Eventually you will build up to the point where things fall apart and sometimes I wonder when you get into this range if it is possibly better to do a wave approach. This would prevent you from lifting daily/weekly in the grey range? Which I guess is about 90%? I would assume this level is also dictated a lot by genetics and weight. I wonder if there would be a logical linear progression to a point and after that your progression changes from linear to a non-linear like.

    I don't know just thinking aloud. I just know grinding out at those levels can really affect things mentally and physically.

    Yeah I like SLDL's too, I just skip them now because you said I need to work my squat more. It's actually really good for flexibility too. Same here with the Prows, its funny how breathing can really make or break a lift.
    Funny I am now starting to look past Leadville and wonder what's next? It'll be nice to have a consistent lifting routine again I think and a lot less to think about.
    Alright keep us updated about the strider. I think most alibaba stuff is just direct from the same factory that makes the original parts but after the original production ceases. So who knows you may have OEM with a funny sticker on it. I bought a couple pairs of Bluetooth headphones from it a while back and they are my favorite headphones I have ever had.
     
  7. Bare Lee

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    Yah, Rippetoe recommends some kind of a weekly wave for intermediate lifting, but I guess it all depends on what one defines as intermediate. He says intermediate is when you stop making daily gains, so we're definitely intermediate, but I suspect I could still make decent small weekly gains just doing the same damn lifts for the same five reps per three sets every workout. I place my faith in the big barbell lifts and their targeting of the prime movers and maximal mass more than any set/rep scheme. Still, I'll continue with the 3 x 5/8/3 weekly wave, since I'm getting good results, but it would simplify things even further if I just did everything 3 x 5. In the end, I doubt it really matters. For my given (lean) weight and genetics, I'm perfectly happy to work up to my easy, intermediate limits. I think if you're patient and smart, there's no real risk of injury. It's only when you push beyond intermediate that you're forced to take some risks and push it. I also doubt a non-linear approach is really necessary for intermediates.

    All I really want is to see what a year of consistency with my current routine, or some minor modification of it, will yield. Unfortunately, if I go ahead with the knee surgery, I'll have to reset again, but hopefully the time off wouldn't be for more than a month or so. I'll see the third ortho in exactly two weeks from today. Now my left knee has been acting up a little too, so I'll ask him if it's worth doing an MRI on that one too. I've been thinking more about BA's theory that running consistency helps keeps the niggles away, which jibes with my experience, and some of the articles stating that running is actually good for the knees. The next guy I'm going to see is a nationally regarded "super doctor" so it will be interesting to get his take. It would really be great to be able to run at least a little bit.

    Yeah, tried the same breathing technique for the SLDLs on Friday, and it worked great. Maybe it's the way to go for all pulls? I'll try it on my pulldowns today too. For presses, it still makes sense to exhale on the concentric phase though, right? Or maybe it doesn't? Maybe it's good to maintain the abdominal pressure throughout the movement . . .

    Yah, squats seem to be good for just about everything. I'm glad I get to keep them for the time being. Funny how moving up a level or two in doctor has allowed me to keep them. Maybe moving up one more level in two weeks will add running back into the mix.

    Post-Leadville might take a little mental adjustment. I remember my last day of cycling in Egypt, thinking to myself that I would never be in that kind of shape again. You're in such great aerobic shape now, maybe you should just run marathons every weekend. Me, I'm getting a little excited about eventually working up to decent cycling distances again. The nice thing about cycling is you cover so much more ground than running. I could eventually cycle out to the St. Croix River and back before my family wakes up on weekends. That'd be a kick in the pants. They're doing a phenomenal job these days installing bike paths.

    I hope you're right about the Alibaba order. So far, they've been very communicative and professional. I kind of wimped out last week with the cycling, but I'm going to try to amp it up a bit more this week now that the soreness from the heavier SLDLs and Squats is dissipating.

    Congrats! Let us know when the write-up is ready.
     
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  8. Sid

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    ??!!

    Acta Physiol Scand. 1989 Jun;136(2):217-27.
    Ground reaction forces at different speeds of human walking and running.
    Nilsson J1, Thorstensson A.
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1748-1716.1989.tb08655.x/abstract
     
  9. Barefoot Dama

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  10. BroadArrow

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    ok, i need a mechanical word analog to "profit". "stress" obviously has a pretty precise and complicated meaning in the engineering sense and the common sense version is excessively murky. so yes, i agree that when you run, there is more force and stress going on. however, my experience is that the positions/motions/etc when walking are less able to handle those forces. kind of like profit = revenue - cost: if we look at only the revenue (in this faulty analogy, revenue would be the ability to handle the stress) or the costs (the raw "stress"), we can easily be mislead because what we really care about is the money we take home (or how much room for error there is when doing something). so, when i am walking, the slow speed (and rudiments of social conformity requiring one to not look utterly and totally ridiculous, merely totally so), i end up with very different leg positions which seem to not be so favorable for the joints. when carrying something heavy, for example, i want everything bent and then to take a bunch of teensy steps which allow for quick adjustment.

    i've been moving my worldly goods between houses and noticed that when i carry something big braced against my face and thigh, there is a "thump-thump-rest-thump-thump-rest" rhythm that develops when i would otherwise have expected a "thump-rest-thump-rest" kind of thing. obviously, part of it is that my leg is launching the object a little so it "flies" and comes back down, but even when i try to minimize that, i still end up with the double bounce thing. in the absence of high-speed videography, i'm going to claim that my femur is doing some weird rotation and translation that makes my thigh intersect with the object at two different points in the leg swing. of course, i haven't tried running with a coffee table or wardrobe box, but i'd like to believe that there would be only single thumps.

    anyways, this is all nearly-baseless speculation. let's all go back to school and become kinesiologists! :)
     
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  11. Sid

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    Physical Therapist Shows How To Walk Correctly



    Proper Way to Pick Up and Carry a Box



    Profit Plan
     
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  12. Abide

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    Thanks I put it up here https://thebarefootrunners.org/threads/la6000d-63k.18527/

    Lately (since I have become a fitbit-whore) I have been trying to get back to doing 12k steps again. And there is definitively a therapeutic factor in walking everyday similar to as you and BA say with running. So at the very least I would recommend doing a focused walk of 20-30 minutes once a day, preferably twice like a morning and evening walk. It's horribly boring but it makes me feel like gold, and eventually it becomes less boring. Or just put the headphones on and chill and bring some coffee.

    Yeah breathing is a tricky one, I usually exhale on the way up for the bench, I breathe only at the bottom of the press and hold for the rep, and the same for the squat and DL I breathe at the top and bottom and hold it for the lift. Most people say don't exhale for the concentric but it works for me on the bench and not on the press. Which kind of makes sense because you don't use the abdominals quite as much on the bench. The P rows I like to hold the brethe to keep it tight, but on the pull ups it doesn't matter as much. Something else I have been doing is tucking my chin doing the pull ups, It definitely adds some stabilization and emphasis in the back area when you aren't craning over the bar with your neck.

    That's really great to hear about Minnesota, how friendly the biking environment is definitely something we will consider when we move back. Its strange that Minnesota seems like it would be a terrible place to bike from a climate perspective half the year but they make it great and safe, and Arizona climate would be a great place to bike but its downright dangerous to do it there except for a couple of small paths.
     
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  13. Sid

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  14. Bare Lee

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    Just got my wife a fitbit for her birthday. I like walking, but everything close to home is pretty well-known to me, and therefore boring. When I was traveling I did a lot of urban hiking, walking from one end of Paris to the other, for example. My first day in a town or city was usually spent just walking around aimlessly, or seeking out the highest point or tower to get a good overview. Then in the following days I would do more targeted tourist-type things. With dogs, like Sid, it would be funner, but for the time being, I'm looking to sub running with longer distance options like cycling or street striding. If I lived nearer to some decent hiking trails, I would give walking greater consideration as an aerobic option. But I'm also sort of anti-Maf, and enjoy activities that get the heart rate up. There, I said it. I'm still taking it easy on the rowing, but once I feel confident that my knee is happy with it, I intend to make it more intense, maybe even do some HIIT training. I'm just not ready yet for the walk around the block geezer routine.

    The street strider came on Monday BTW. It is indeed a knock-off as Dutchie suspected. And the bolt hole where the front axle attaches to the frame wasn't machined properly, so it's too tight. My brother has a tap and die set and also a friend who can do pretty much anything mechanical or electrical, a kind of working class genius, so hopefully that will be fixed soon. The rest of the tricycle looks good and the parts are indeed top notch Shimano, so hopefully the thing will still work OK and be fun to ride. I never would've ordered it myself, but my brother impulsively ordered it the night I mentioned first it.

    Meanwhile, I'm getting the cycling going a bit more this week. For the same price as the faux street strider, I could've gotten a really nice used road bike. My mountain bike is great, but it would be nice to sample one of those really lightweight bikes for recreational purposes.

    I didn't really follow Sid's walking versus running analysis, or BA's elaborate analogy. This ortho--http://www.howardluksmd.com-- who has a lot of good info on meniscus issues, doesn't think walking is much better on the knees than running (http://www.howardluksmd.com/orthopedic-social-media/does-running-cause-knee-arthritis/), which seems absurd, but on my return walk-commute a few days ago, my left knee did feel a little something towards the end. It's still hard to accept that my knees are so brittle, but I saw the MRI, and the right knee is indeed pretty f^cked up.

    I think you're spot on with the breathing categories. I'll try to see how I do it this afternoon, but I think I do it exactly like you. I've also been pausing more with the squats, taking the eccentric phase a bit slower, pausing at the bottom, then coming up, exhaling at the top, and pausing a bit before the next rep. Just trying to make it as controlled and form-perfect as possible. Basically, the stretch reflex has been eliminated or close to eliminated.

    Yeah, it's ironic that Minnesota is so bike-friendly given the climate. With the new fat tires though, winter cycling is more manageable and you see a lot of folks out there year-round. It would be great if you settled here, needless to say. The schools are pretty good and everything is pretty well-run. Plus the Vikings have a good young rooster and a promising new coach.
     
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  15. Sid

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    Probably best to ignore the Internet analysis and wait to see your Superstar Doc.
     
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  16. BroadArrow

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    hmm... three and a half cents says that by the time you get in to see the super-doc that you will have reestablished a consistent run/walk and lifting pattern, lost 7 pounds, your knee will have forgotten its travails, and you will be tempted to cancel your appointment thus reinforcing the selection bias for that physician's experience. :) or you will be reduced to doing commando crawls to get from the bedroom to the bathroom. anyways, i have faith that your recovery will continue.
     
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  17. Bare Lee

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    When I was making my appointment, the assistant pointed him out to me down the hall. He had a nice sport coat on, and seemed to have a lot of vitality.

    In those article links, did they conclude anything other than that walking and running stimulate different forces? Can one say one is harder on the knees than the other, given an equal number of steps?

    Sid, you said you do Unsupported Seated Overhead Presses, right? Do you have any tricks for maintaining stability? I've tried different ways of bracing my legs against my rack posts, but it still feels awkward at times. I went back to Tall Kneeling Overhead Presses yesterday, but I'm a little worried about what that will do to my meniscus risk (http://www.jrheum.org/content/36/7/1512.abstract), even though everything felt fine. I might take up Abide's suggestion to try the Savickas Press next time around, if I can manage it.
     
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  18. Bare Lee

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    Ha, yah, at times it's hard to believe there's anything wrong, although I still feel a little something going on most times. Not soreness or instability, but just a little hint of something not being quite right in one or both of the knees. Still, you're right, everything's getting better. If there's no risk or drawbacks to treating it with surgery and/or stem cell therapy, and the promise that the knee will last even longer without requiring knee replacement, then I'll still probably go through with it. The down time might be as little as 1-2 weeks.

    Interesting what you said about selection bias though. Something to keep in mind. The one thing I've read that recommends most for surgery is that the popping or clicking sound I hear in my knee is either a meniscus flap or a loose bit of cartilage that may be wearing away at the articular cartilage. It would be best to have this removed, since it has no functional value and may be causing long term damage leading to arthritis and eventual knee replacement.

    It's interesting that runners, on a whole, have less chance of arthritis than non-runners. But I have yet to see any study suggesting that people like me, with a probable genetic predisposition to degenerative menisci, benefit from running. And I know that running has provoked crippling pain at times. Sometimes obvious correlations are correct.

    When do we get to see pics of your new set-up, btw?

    Did you know they've done tests on Kenyan woman and have found that carrying something on one's head is the most efficient way to load, in terms of gait? Next time you move a dresser down the block, or a coffee table, give it a try.
     
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  19. BroadArrow

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    selection bias + small sample size = patient who quickly begins to think that no-one knows anything but they still charge you an arm and a leg. :) i mean, when you start "conditioning" on all of your particular attributes, you end up with a potential population of like 50 people in the whole country. so it becomes very unlikely that someone chased all those people down and enrolled them in a prospective, double-blind, placebo-controlled, clinical trial focusing on the particular malady currently afflicting you (as opposed to the other one afflicting the other guy, or the one that will strike you next week).

    i can never seem to get pictures to work on here. i'm too stupid to be able to figure out or something. like, i can copy/paste them in and they show up in the editor, but disappear after posting. and i don't have a third-party site to link through, either. there's not much to see, but supposing someone enlightens me on the whole "technology" thing, i could demonstrate my poverty simplicity.

    carrying stuff on your head is, indeed very efficient. but, my understanding of those studies (relying on faulty memory here) is that you have to know how to do it and possibly even grow up doing so or have the right genetics. i thought when somebody tried to teach boys/men and white women, they either couldn't do it or didn't get the efficiency gains because they walked wrong. of course, it was probably like 4 people and a "highly motivated" anthropology master's student trying to get their thesis out the door. :) that or just my bad memory.

    but, the thought has crossed my mind in the past to practice running with something on my head to encourage me to run smoothly and efficiently and not flop around. i've run with rocks, sand, and stuff on my back or shoulders which smooths things out some, but on your head would also encourage a good head position. first, i need to get running (which will hopefully happen now that we officially have only one house).
     
  20. Bare Lee

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    Well, yes, but are all my particular attributes relevant? Can't one generalize over "active, middle-aged, degenerative meniscus tear with onset of osteoarthritis"? If in the majority of cases the prospect for osteoarthritis improves, and there are few risks involved, with intervention, then why not treat it, especially since the pain and running seemed to be so strongly correlated (like once stopping me dead in my tracks a mile into a run, and numerous other times when the knees have feel sore and/or painful while running). The sham versus real surgery study that everyone loves to quote was based on osteoarthritis, not meniscus tears that may provoke osteoarthritis, wasn't longitudinal, and was based on patients' perception of their condition, not any real objective evaluation. A certain percentage of the sham patients also went on to have real surgery later.

    It seems like a lot of people who have responded to my concerns confuse osteoarthritis, which affects the articular cartilage, with my degenerative tear, which affects the meniscus cartilage. If there is a meniscus tear, or flap, or loose bit of meniscus cartilage that is floating around and causing the clicking, and occasionally getting stuck and locking up the joint (as happened last fall), and may cause long-term damage to the articular cartilage, which may eventually necessitate knee replacement surgery, isn't it worth getting it fixed? Especially if the risks are minimal to nonexistent? I mean, even in the sham surgeries, they went ahead and stuck the arthroscopes in, so it can't be too risky. It's not like someone's digging around in my spine.

    Others have said to keep running, and just deal with the flare-ups. Well, the flare-ups are crippling and fairly unpredictable so it's impossible to know when to back down or ease up to avoid one.

    I think all that my return to consistent lifting has proven is that lifting doesn't seem to affect the meniscus issue as adversely, if at all, as running. Which is exactly what the second Orthopedist said. So I guess just give up running and forget about the surgery is an option, except that the flap or tear or loose bit, even if not painful, may continue to cause damage to the articular cartilage. The cartilage in that area of the knee joint is largely aneural (the pain is caused when the bone is irritated), so there's no way of knowing how much it's being damaged, but these orthopedists aren't complete fools either. I think some have overestimated the influence of doctors' greed, and underestimated their professional pride, need for status or prestige, and, dare I say it, desire to make injured knees better.

    I appreciate all advice and suggestions, but it would be best if they were directed towards the specific attributes of my case: degenerative meniscus tear, irritated by running to the point of crippling pain, also probably causing damage to the articular cartilage.

    Solution One: just deal with it. I've done this for three years now, and it seems to just be getting worse, the flare-ups more frequent and crippling. Although, as you've pointed out, the flare-ups seem to happen most when I'm not running consistently. This could just be coincidence, because I haven't been running consistently for the last 19-20 months now. Just the passage of time may be the cause of the worsening condition.

    Solution Two: try to fix it or at least minimize the damage. No real risk that I'm aware of, fairly short recovery time afterwards.

    Anyway, another 10 days until I get to see the sport-coated superdoc.

    Don't know what to say about the tech. I always upload JPEG or PDF files. Lately, however, Sid's videos haven't been coming through, but that's probably something to do with my browser (Firefox).

    Yeah, in that study, the men and nonlocal women probably weren't given sufficient time to learn the new skill, so hard to say if it's something we could learn later in life. Like most things, probably best learned as a child. Nice recall btw.

    Yah, maintaining a relatively level head and bending the knees a bit seem to lead to the same thing, a smoother gait.

    Good luck re-establishing your routine.
     
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