The Running Form Thread

#141
damianstoy said:
Bare Lee, you cannot ignore gravity. You can only cooperate with it. Just let gravity do the work...
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I will resist it to my grave. I want to fly like an eagle, let my spirit carry me. Besides, if I let gravity do all the work, I won't get a work out.

On a more serious note: I ordered Hammer's histological fountain of youth from Amazon this morning. It was a bit cheaper than direct, and will be here by Tuesday. As they are one of your sponsors, let me know if there is a way I can let them know that you were the one who recommended it (after trying the product of course.) It was actually Abide's second rec that won me over, but I don't think his coffee and ball-scratching sponsors need to know.
 
#142
Fine, keep flying and I'll keep falling. Keep me posted on the fountain of youth. I see how it is, you don't trust me but you trust Abide. I wouldn't trust me either. No worries about letting Hammer know I recommended it to you. Hopefully it works for you and you can tell others. You can pay me later (I charge $50 every time you read one of my posts).
 
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#143
damianstoy said:
Fine, keep flying and I'll keep falling. Keep me posted on the fountain of youth. I see how it is, you don't trust me but you trust Abide. I wouldn't trust me either. No worries about letting Hammer know I recommended it to you. Hopefully it works for you and you can tell others. You can pay me later (I charge $50 every time you read one of my posts).
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Your being a botanist and serious runner certainly helped open up my mind to the possibility, but a second, disinterested rec from a like-minded BFRer like Abide sealed the deal. It was both you guys. At almost 27 dollars, I couldn't risk pissing my money away on quackery. But two self-selected positive reports counts as a statistically significant sample size and endorsement of medical efficacy when one is as anxious to get back to running as I am . . .

I guess continuing to entertain a looney tunes version of physics will have to count as payment for the time being then . . . ;)
 
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#144
Bare Lee said:
Your being a botanist and serious runner certainly helped open up my mind to the possibility, but a second, disinterested rec from a like-minded BFRer like Abide sealed the deal. It was both you guys. At almost 27 dollars, I couldn't risk pissing my money away on quackery. But two self-selected positive reports counts as a statistically significant sample size and endorsement of medical efficacy when one is as anxious to get back to running as I am . . .

I guess continuing to entertain a looney tunes version of physics will have to count as payment for the time being then . . . ;)
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Hey, did I ever tell you? I'm a pretty good Chi Running instructor. You could send me a video of you running. I'll get you leaning and using gravity in no time...
 
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#145
Bare Lee said:
Your being a botanist and serious runner certainly helped open up my mind to the possibility, but a second, disinterested rec from a like-minded BFRer like Abide sealed the deal. It was both you guys. At almost 27 dollars, I couldn't risk pissing my money away on quackery. But two self-selected positive reports counts as a statistically significant sample size and endorsement of medical efficacy when one is as anxious to get back to running as I am . . .

I guess continuing to entertain a looney tunes version of physics will have to count as payment for the time being then . . . ;)
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By the way, you can click on any Hammer Nutrition logo on my site and get 15% off your first order of Hammer products. Hope this isn't a shameless plug but I don't get anything for it. I just really believe in the benefits of Tissue Rejuvenator.
 
#146
damianstoy said:
By the way, you can click on any Hammer Nutrition logo on my site and get 15% off your first order of Hammer products. Hope this isn't a shameless plug but I don't get anything for it. I just really believe in the benefits of Tissue Rejuvenator.
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Opps. I ordered on Amazon cuz it's easy and 'free' shipping with my Prime account. So how often do you pop the pill? While I'm nursing this tweak I suppose it will be every day, but then afterwards, assuming I will fully heal, how often would you recommend?
 
#147
damianstoy said:
Hey, did I ever tell you? I'm a pretty good Chi Running instructor. You could send me a video of you running. I'll get you leaning and using gravity in no time...
Click to expand...
That probably won't work then. Our Pose friend B&A wants to do the same thing, but I've resisted his advances as well. I used to be a decent athlete, so I'm pretty sure my form is OK, although I realize the fact that I've recently tweaked my knee will delegitimize that claim for many. But I'm pretty sure it was a result of not warming up properly after sitting in the car with my knee bent for a while. It was also the first chilly day of the season, which may have something to do with it. In any case, I'm thinking it was a one-off sort of thing, since I'd been running a fair amount beforehand without any knee problems, and the doc said my knee looked like that of a man 20 years younger in the x-rays. Not all injuries are a result of poor technique or overuse in other words.

Of course, if this becomes a recurring problem I will reconsider.

Nonetheless, I do look forward to future interactions with you here at BRS. Glad to see you participating. I still don't consider myself to be a 'runner'--I'm more a guy who runs--but I would like to get there within the next year.

One question: most serious runners are ectomorphs like you. I have more of a mesomorhic body--kind of like a NFL safetry--so I'm thinking I probably shouldn't run more than 10-15 miles max per run. Would you agree, or doesn't body type make any difference?
 
#149
Bare Lee said:
One question: most serious runners are ectomorphs like you. I have more of a mesomorhic body--kind of like a NFL safetry--so I'm thinking I probably shouldn't run more than 10-15 miles max per run. Would you agree, or doesn't body type make any difference?
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You know what he is going to say :)

I do have a hypothesis that injuries would decrease with a lower body weight as distances increase.

Same here on the body type. That is a good distance range for me too for long runs, anything more than that and it definitely takes a greater toll. Plus I don't want to die at 50 with a hardened heart.
 
#153
dutchie53 said:
Don't tell Lee, but I bought the CHI running book today. Damianstoy comments left me curious enough to educate myself before commenting in this post. ;)
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Ha! I'm basically with Jason on this stuff. Different methods may work well as coaching cues for different individuals. It's just that the explanations don't always add up in scientific terms. In other words, I'm not willing to overturn Newtonian physics, but if thinking about gravity 'doing the work for you' leads to better form, I'm all for it. I'll be interested in hearing what your impressions of Chi-running are. I've also been intrigued by the idea of 'engaging the core' while running, as my main form manipulation these days is to try to sink my hips down just a bit. Unfortunately my knee-tweak has me running very short distances so I'm not able to experiment as much as I would like.
 
#154
Abide said:
You know what he is going to say :)

I do have a hypothesis that injuries would decrease with a lower body weight as distances increase.

Same here on the body type. That is a good distance range for me too for long runs, anything more than that and it definitely takes a greater toll. Plus I don't want to die at 50 with a hardened heart.
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Yah, since my knee-tweak, I've stopped losing weight, but my goal is get down from my current 210 to about 190. Once I'm there, I may think about adding distance, but right now it makes sense to put a cap on distance at about 7-8 miles, which is where I was a month ago. Once I'm 190, I'd like to get up to about 10-12 miles on my longest weekly run. When I lived in Chicago I used to run with an English housemate who had a classic runner's ectomorphic build. He would run with me for five miles, and then run another five miles at a much faster pace. He enjoyed our conversations so he put up with my slower pace for the first part of his run. In the gym, he could barely bench press much past the bar. Although I envied his effortless running, I would never sacrifice upper body strength to get there. I used to tease him that I was getting a much better workout running because I was hauling an extra 50 pounds. I'll try to read that article later today.
 
#155
Clarification on the gravity thing: I'm not saying gravity doesn't affect running, only that it can't be used to propel you forward. The energy needed to recover from the falling has to be greater than the energy saved from falling in the first place. If it weren't, perpetual motion would be possible. ;)

Regarding body type: I think body type can affect performance, but I'm not sure it's a limiting factor... especially for distance running. I'm not exactly a waif, more like an NFL safety about five or six years after retirement. I do fairly well at distances. In fact, my best hundos have been around 185-195 (versus 170). And I regularly get passed by dudes (and ladies) significantly bigger than me.
 
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#156
Abide said:
Anyway I'd wonder if we could get a generic collection of a few people looking at running performance based on body type, weight and frame size and see what kind of trends there may be.

Something like this but with running.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/whats-my-genetic-muscular-potential.html
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That article makes a lot of sense. I know I don't have a large enough frame to be a real heavy lifter. It's just not going to happen, but his numbers make sense. At 6'1" I know I could still be stronger and about 20 pounds lighter if I continue to improve and can also get rid of the last vestiges of my belly and some skin fat. That would put me near his 190 lbs figure for a six-footer. And then referring back to your BW numbers on the other thread, that would put my max bench at 285 for 1.5 BW and my max dead lift at 380 for 2 BW. That seems about right. That or a somewhat less appears to be my natural limit with a fairly recreational approach to strength-training (3-4 hours per week).

As for running, it's interesting how quickly elite body types change between the sprinters and the one-milers, but then between the one-milers and the marathoners there doesn't seem to be that much difference. One year in HS I went out for track, mostly because I got tired of playing right field and batting ninth in baseball. The coach thought my natural events were the 220, 440, and the 880, and the long jump. I didn't have the power and explosiveness to be a true sprinter, but I also wasn't built for the distance events.

As for not dying of a hardened heart, Coach Dean (another good running site by the way: http://coachdeanhebert.wordpress.com/) has said that studies have shown that any run over nine miles starts to overstress the body and weaken the immune system. For somewhat stockier guys like us, that is a good excuse not to worry too much about high mileage. My goal is to get up in the 25-30 mpw range, with a max distance of 10-15 miles on my weekly LSD run, and maintain, but if I only end up in the 20-25 mpw range, running at decent paces, I'll be satisfied. Anything about 20 mpw and I'm assured of low body fat and sound sleep . . .
 
#157
Last Place Jason said:
Clarification on the gravity thing: I'm not saying gravity doesn't affect running, only that it can't be used to propel you forward. The energy needed to recover from the falling has to be greater than the energy saved from falling in the first place. If it weren't, perpetual motion would be possible. ;)

Regarding body type: I think body type can affect performance, but I'm not sure it's a limiting factor... especially for distance running. I'm not exactly a waif, more like an NFL safety about five or six years after retirement. I do fairly well at distances. In fact, my best hundos have been around 185-195 (versus 170). And I regularly get passed by dudes (and ladies) significantly bigger than me.
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Right, it's good of you to clarify. Obviously, gravity affects everything we do, just as do the other fundamental interactions of nature (electromagnetism, and the nuclear strong force and weak force). In running we resist gravity, just as in strength training. It doesn't do any work for us.

And don't take this the wrong way, but I've always admired the fact that you run endurance events despite being a lot stockier than the Scott Jureks of the world. You look more like a power lifter than a runner to me :) .
 
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#158
Bare Lee said:
And don't take this the wrong way, but I've always admired the fact that you run endurance events despite being a lot stockier than the Scott Jureks of the world. You look more like a power lifter than a runner to me :) .
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I never take it the wrong way. I like food and beer more than I like running, hence the unbalanced caloric equation. I also like feeling strong, so I do a fair amount of weight training. I tried to develop the runner body once and it sucked. I don't like being a noodly-armed choir boy. I'd be a better runner if I lost weight, but I don't want to give up the ability to lift fairly heavy shit.
 
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#160
Bare Lee said:
As for not dying of a hardened heart, Coach Dean (another good running site by the way) has said that studies have shown that any run over nine miles starts to overstress the body and weaken the immune system. For somewhat stockier guys like us, that is a good excuse not to worry too much about high mileage. My goal is to get up in the 25-30 mpw range, with a max distance of 12-15 miles on my weekly LSD run, and maintain, but if I only end up in the 20-25 mpw range, running at decent paces, I'll be satisfied. Anything about 20 mpw and I'm assured of low body fat and sound sleep . . .
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Every human is born to run. Sounds cliche I know. Of course, some are faster than others, who cares. But if we run 'correctly, it is very healing. To think running over a certain distance is 'stressful' and weakens the body is silly. Of course there are 'stressors'. But the benefits far outweigh the costs. Again, if done 'correctly'.

I think this is an important discussion. Yes, the way many Americans traditionally run is possibly harmful. Poor technique, poor state of mind and 'over training' is harmful. But if we run in a way which is more joyful, relaxed, fun and playful versus running to lose weight, train or to work out. Then running is incredibly healing physically, mentally and spiritually.
 
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