The Running Form Thread

After over a year and a half, wouldn't you think I would have built up this fat pad? Lee, I can also confirm from my time in Afghanistan that I saw a lot of the locals walking with a forefoot-midfoot strike mostly, but again this is a very very rocky region (kind of looks like God took a plow and churned all the rocks to the surface), so my experience may be skewed.
Yah, I'm thinking more sand and hard-pacted dirt. I don't recall rocky barefoot walking. Maybe they were avoiding land mines? But to the point: perhaps you're just anomalous? In any case, remember, remember, the fourth of November. I hope you root for us tonight!
 
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Abide, I haven't had any change in weight much since high school. But weight loss can help reduce impact. You can also reduce impact by running more efficiently. Less up and down movement, pelvic rotation, feet landing closer to underneath your hips.

Also, if you want I can share with you some foods that speed up the healing process.

Sure I am always interested in food ideas, maybe we should start another thread for it though.
 
I'm sorry Damian, this will seem like a cop-out, but I really can't spend any more time here today. I've been promising myself not to get involved in these discussions for some time. I did read an excellent description of how the lean changes as we accelerate and decelerate to overcome inertia and to brake, respectively, but I don't know exactly where it is. I became pretty lazy about bookmarking and organizing stuff over this past summer. But it's out there. Magness is probably the best place to start. And I apologize for my curt tone. I didn't sleep very well, and I awoke to some knee pain after stupidly doing lateral abduction and adduction stuff yesterday while rehabbing a minor knee tweak.

Actually, if you don't mind me taking advantage of your experience as coach and runner, would you recommend complete rest or is it OK to begin running again once the pain has diminished to mere soreness? I mysteriously tweaked my knee three weeks ago less than a mile into a six-mile run. I could barely walk the next day, but the doc said my x-rays looked fine, and I was able to walk without a limp within 5 days or so. I began running short distances last week, after a two-week break, and am usually fine the next day, but the spot on the lower inside of the left knee is still a bit painful to the touch. I'm wondering if I should wait until there's no more tactile pain whatsoever, or if it's OK to run short distances as long as the post-run soreness goes away by the next day. The reason I'm in such a hurry to get back to running is that it's the only way I manage to sleep well. My strength training doesn't do that for me. And if anyone besides Damian has some thoughts on this, I'd also appreciate hearing those too.
I don't care about you being curt. I enjoy learning.

I do believe some movement (especially efficient movement) is beneficial for healing injuries. I am not a doctor or a PT but here is what I recommend. Running is probably fine if you keep it very short. Lots of littles I like to say. I'd rather you run 5 days a week for 5 minutes then 2 days a week for an hour. The key is listening to your body honestly. Also, walking is probably the most healing of movements. I'd recommend this over running but it sounds like you really want to run.

Also, let me share with you (and others) some foods which speed up the healing process. Natural anti-inflammatories include flax oil, turmeric, wheatgrass, chia seeds. I highly recommend a product from Hammer Nutrition called 'Tissue Rejuvenator'. It also contains glucosamine, MSM and enzymes to speed up the healing process. Another good product is Zyflamend by New Chapter.

Have you tried cold/hot soaks? Yoga? Please let me know if you have any questions.
 
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Sure I am always interested in food ideas, maybe we should start another thread for it though.
Please see my above comments.

Also: http://wholisticrunning.com/2012/02/14/foods-for-increased-health-healing-energy-and-performance/

Remember, I am not a PT or a nutritionist. These are things that have helped me stay injury free for a long time, recover very fast and have high energy. Also, I am sponsored by Hammer Nutrition. I really believe in some of their products, especially 'Tissue Rejuvenator'.

Check out my blog about yoga too!
 
Regarding the injury, Lee: where exactly is the pain?

Regarding weight loss: I agree with Damian (which deviates from my earlier thoughts on the matter), lower body weight = less impact. And I agree with the form advice... form can reduce impact.

Regarding the appropriate amount of lean: I don't know if there's a way to objectively determine appropriate angles because it's going to fluctuate based on pace and individual physiology. I'd say the purpose is to maximize vertical versus horizontal movement... sort of like throwing a football a certain distance. If you throw it straight up, it doesn't go anywhere. If you throw it perfectly parallel to the ground, it doesn't go far (due to gravity ;)). You have to throw it at an angle based on the distance you want to throw.

Likewise, the faster you're running, the flatter the trajectory, the greater the lean. It's not a perfect analogy... but it sort of explains the idea.
 
I don't care about you being curt. I enjoy learning.

I do believe some movement (especially efficient movement) is beneficial for healing injuries. I am not a doctor or a PT but here is what I recommend. Running is probably fine if you keep it very short. Lots of littles I like to say. I'd rather you run 5 days a week for 5 minutes then 2 days a week for an hour. The key is listening to your body honestly. Also, walking is probably the most healing of movements. I'd recommend this over running but it sounds like you really want to run.

Also, let me share with you (and others) some foods which speed up the healing process. Natural anti-inflammatories include flax oil, turmeric, wheatgrass, chia seeds. I highly recommend a product from Hammer Nutrition called 'Tissue Rejuvenator'. It also contains glucosamine, MSM and enzymes to speed up the healing process. Another good product is Zyflamend by New Chapter.

Have you tried cold/hot soaks? Yoga? Please let me know if you have any questions.
Thanks Damian. I've been icing the knee 4-6 times a day, and putting on Penetrex and Tropicin. My sense too is that the rehab is at a stage where a little running can do it some good, as well as walking. I've been walking to pick up my kids from day care and kindergarten during this rehab process instead of taking the car, since my running is so limited. Maybe I'll go out for an hour each day and slowly increase the running to walking ratio until I'm back running an hour every other day, and just walking on alternative days. On my last run two days ago I ran 1.7 miles at about 9mm pace, and felt OK. I was a little sore for an hour or two afterwards, but by the next day the joint just felt a little stiff; no ache or soreness. But today I feel pain, not just soreness, so I'll rest it until it returns to sore or stiff and then try again. I think I need to avoid all lateral stress on the joint for a good while yet. In any case, thanks for taking the time to respond. That was most helpful, I'll be looking into some of the products you've recommended.
 
Thanks Damian. I've been icing the knee 4-6 times a day, and putting on Penetrex and Tropicin. My sense too is that the rehab is at a stage where a little running can do it some good, as well as walking. I've been walking to pick my kids from day care and kindergarten during this rehab process instead of taking the car, since my running is so limited. Maybe I'll go out for an hour each day and slowly increase the running to walking ratio until I'm back running an hour every other day, and just walking on alternative days. On my last run two days ago I ran 1.7 miles at about 9mm pace, and felt OK. I was a little sore for an hour or two afterwards, but by the next day the joint just felt a little stiff; no ache or soreness. But today I feel pain, not just soreness, so I'll rest it until it returns to sore or stiff and then try again. I think I need to avoid all lateral stress on the joint for a good while yet. In any case, thanks for taking the time to respond. That was most helpful, I'll be looking in to some of the products you've recommended.
You are very welcome. Penetrex and Tropicin are great. I also recommend Traumeel. My opinion is that variety is good. Some of the ingredients in those products (turmeric, boswellia etc) are in Tissue Rejuvenator. It's good to take them orally as well for systemic inflammation. Keep listening to your body and the key is not to push it too fast. Patience! Listen.

Then, we need to work on your technique so it doesn't happen again especially posture and core engagement. Maybe some core exercises to help stabilize the knee.
 
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You are very welcome. Penetrex and Tropicin are great. I also recommend Traumeel. My opinion is that variety is good. Some of the ingredients in those products (turmeric, boswellia etc) are in Tissue Rejuvenator. It's good to take them orally as well for systemic inflammation. Keep listening to your body and the key is not to push it too fast. Patience! Listen.

Then, we need to work on your technique so it doesn't happen again especially posture and core engagement. Maybe some core exercises to help stabilize the knee.
To give a little background: I've been getting back into shape for about a year and a half now. I started more than two years ago, but was interrupted a lot the first nine months or so by our second pregnancy. I had been in good to excellent shape for most of my life.

I do weights one day and run the other, and have recently been pushing the lower back stuff. Three days before the tweak, on a Monday, I pushed the bent-over rows (using a t-bar) a bit, so that might have something to do with it, but then the next day I ran 7 miles at a decent pace (for me), without any problem. So I'm doubtful the weights had anything to do with it. The next day, Wednesday, I think I did chest and arms strength training, so my legs weren't stressed at all, and then the next day, Thursday, I began my run a bit faster than I had planned, but at a pace that felt natural, and then, on a step like any other, I felt a sharp pain in my knee. I didn't land awkwardly or make a cut or anything. I was running on smooth, flat asphalt. So I turned around and walked 100-200 yards and then as it felt better, ran slowly back to my car (I was running around a lake). The next day I could barely walk but was lucky to get in to see a sports medicine guy right away. He said my knees looked fine. In fact he said I have the bones of a man 20 years younger. No aging or degeneration was evident in the x-ray at all. So it's a bit of mystery. It's getting better, so I'm not too worried about it, but I would like to make sure it doesn't happen again. My proposed solution right now is to cut down on the distance and work on running at faster paces, something like 8mm pace, and then build back up from there. But I won't worry about pace at all until I can comfortably run three miles without any post-run soreness.
 
I injured my knee in practically the same spot in more or less the same way this last January. Like yours, i have no idea what was actually injured. I had a hard time walking, it would occasionally hurt without movement, and running was out of the question. It caused me to miss Rocky Raccoon and DNF at mile 5 of a 50k.

The good news: it healed with rest. It took about two months to get back to 100%, but I could run on it well before. I agree with Damian, some active recovery probably won't hurt. I iced it regularly, too.
 
I injured my knee in practically the same spot in more or less the same way this last January. Like yours, i have no idea what was actually injured. I had a hard time walking, it would occasionally hurt without movement, and running was out of the question. It caused me to miss Rocky Raccoon and DNF at mile 5 of a 50k.

The good news: it healed with rest. It took about two months to get back to 100%, but I could run on it well before. I agree with Damian, some active recovery probably won't hurt. I iced it regularly, too.
Thanks for taking the time to reply Jason. It's especially reassuring knowing that something out-of-the-blue can even happen to a well-oiled, high mileage guy like you. I guess I'll stop worrying about it, be a bit more vigilante about warming up and massaging afterwards, and just continue with the icing and mild active recovery I initiated last week. My sense is that it will be OK in about two more weeks, but I won't push it too much for another 2-4 weeks after that. Pretty much the timeline you followed, although of course the mileage will be completely different. I'll try to stay around 3-4 miles max until it's felt good for a while, and just 1-2 miles while there's still some soreness. My goal is to get to 6-8 miles twice a week, and then 10-12 miles on the weekend--about 25 mpw seems about right for me. And I guess I'll avoid squats and any lateral-type leg stuff for at least two months. Thanks again Damian and Jason. I was considering complete rest for a few weeks but your feedback has helped me stay the course, as a politician might say.
 
You are very welcome. Penetrex and Tropicin are great. I also recommend Traumeel. My opinion is that variety is good. Some of the ingredients in those products (turmeric, boswellia etc) are in Tissue Rejuvenator. It's good to take them orally as well for systemic inflammation. Keep listening to your body and the key is not to push it too fast. Patience! Listen.

Then, we need to work on your technique so it doesn't happen again especially posture and core engagement. Maybe some core exercises to help stabilize the knee.
I've looked into core stuff a bit, and I'm a bit skeptical that these are any better than traditional strength training and ab work, but I've worked in a few things I've liked, and if you have any running-specific exercises in mind, I'd appreciate hearing about them. I've enclosed an attachment of my latest running & strength training routine (revamped as recently as yesterday, so nothing's set in stone!). Some of it is in shorthand so I can get it all on one page.
 

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I've looked into core stuff a bit, and I'm a bit skeptical that these are any better than traditional strength training and ab work, but I've working a few things I've liked, and if you have any running-specific exercises in mind, I'd appreciate hearing about them. I've enclosed an attachment of my latest running & strength training routine (revamped as recently as yesterday, so nothing's set in stone!). Some of it is in shorthand so I can get it all on one page.
That is a good start for sure. Remembering that I am biased, I recommend looking into Bikram Yoga and Chi Running. Bikram Yoga is amazing for healing and overall health.

As a Chi Running instructor and not seeing your technique, posture, etc. I would say this. Working on your posture and/or core engagement when you run will help to stabilize the hips and knee hopefully preventing future knee injuries and correcting imbalances, weaknesses and alignment. You can check out the book. Specifically, I'd recommend focusing on 'zippering' up the lower abs. Jason probably has some great ideas as well.

You can also email me a video of you running (no rush!) and I can analyze it and suggest stuff. I wonder what your cadence, posture, biomechanics look like.
 
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I'm always a little skeptical about the need to build core strength, but I've found running technical trails and a slosh tube to be excellent core workouts.
Jason, I'm actually not really a fan of core work either. If you run 'correctly', you are working your core. Do you agree and teach others to 'engage the core' when they run? It's obviously a big part of Chi Running. I coached with Ray Zahab this Summer and he was the opposite. He says to strengthen the core in the gym and it will engage while running. He said to focus on it while running is silly. I disagreed with him of course.

By the way, I'll read your book one of these days.
 
That is a good start for sure. Remembering that I am biased, I recommend looking into Bikram Yoga and Chi Running. Bikram Yoga is amazing for healing and overall health.

As a Chi Running instructor and not seeing your technique, posture, etc. I would say this. Working on your posture and/or core engagement when you run will help to stabilize the hips and knee hopefully preventing future knee injuries and correcting imbalances, weaknesses and alignment. You can check out the book. Specifically, I'd recommend focusing on 'zippering' up the lower abs. Jason probably has some great ideas as well.

You can also email me a video of you running (no rush!) and I can analyze it and suggest stuff. I wonder what your cadence, posture, biomechanics look like.
I've heard good things about Yoga, but I've got a full plate right now so I'm sticking with what I know.
If you could recommend a Chi Running site that discuss or demonstrates what "engaging the core" looks like, I'd appreciate it.
I've been meaning to shoot some video, but I'll have to wait until I'm healed and running normally. I'm pretty sure my form is OK for a recreational/fitness runner. A few casual observers have said so. I'm somewhat athletic and have been pretty active most of my life, and I feel like I can identify good /bad form in other runners. Would be nice to get some objectivity on it though. Thanks for the offer! Will get back to you.
 
I don't mention the core. I have people do a stretch to get good posture, but that's it. It's based on the idea of avoiding teaching something that will take care of itself. If someone runs with terrible posture or their torso is flopping all over the place, I may intervene.

There's also an issue of conservation.... don't contract muscles that don't have to be contracted.

Oh, and Bikram yoga = awesome heat acclimation training.