No eating before or during running?

During prolonged exercise,

During prolonged exercise, muscle and liver glycogen stores are depleted (the amount of glycogen stores you have in your body depends on your diet...carb rich diet will result in higher levels of stored muscle glycogen).

Depletion of glycogen and carbs (blood glucose) will result in a decreased rate of glycolosis (anaerobic pathway of producing energy) which in turn decreases the production rates of pyruvic acid/pyruvate (biproduct of glycolosis).

If pyruvate isn't available in the muscle, the availability of Kreb's cycle intermediates (oxaloacetate, malate etc) is reduced and the ATP production through Kreb's (aerobic metabolism..prolonged submaximal exercise) is slowed and less energy is available to the muscle.

Fats, in the form of fatty acids can be used in energy production. However, fat metabolism can ONLY occur through Krebs cycle. When the Krebs is slowed (reduced Krebs intermediates) so is the rate at which fat is metabolized.

Consuming carbs during exercise promotes the preservation of the liver stores of glycogen (converted to glucose thus providing blood glucose). It takes roughly 1hr (and this varies from individual) for muscle glycogen to be depleted (muscle glycogen = main source of carbohydrates for energy for the first hour). In addition, when blood glucose and liver glycogen stores are depleted, the body experiences hypoglycemia which inhibits central nervous system activation.

Another consideration is intensity level, if you are performing/training at higher intensity levels (as one may during a race) there is a shift from fats as fuels to carbohydrates. Fats are primarily used during low intensity exercise. If you try to pick up the pace during a prolonged exercise without the use of exergonic fuel/carbs you may hit your wall because there will be little blood glucose, muscle or liver glycogen left to fuel the higher intensity exercise.

Lastly, depending on where and when you are training environment will have an effect on your performance. It's likely that you are sweating and need to replace sodium lost through sweat. Sodium loss can lead to fatigue as well.

My guess is that you may not have the right fuel souce for you. Most recommendations say to consume 30-60g of carbs per hour of exercise, 1-5g/kg body weight 1-4hrs before exercise



Lots to consider. Try honey mixed with molasses and salt about an hour in. Seems to work well for me :)
 
I know that's the

I know that's the conventional wisdom Zum. I'm just wondering if it's kind of B.S.

By the way, I took another run without consuming any calories beforehand. This time a 12-mile single-track trail run (took about 2.5 hours because I stopped to gawk a lot). Felt like crap for the first three miles, then by mile four I felt great. Kept feeling better each mile and picked up the pace for the last three miles. I was doing a 7 min/mile on single-track for the last mile.

Just seems like if what you said above is correct Zum, I would have been hypoglycemic for the last 1.5 hours of my run, and I certainly wouldn't have enough energy to pick up the pace during the latter portion of the run.

Especially since going over to paleo/primal, I've been suspect of the need to consume carbs before or during exercies. I'm eating a fraction of the carbs I used to, and if anything I have more energy. Just seems like the conventional wisdom is a bit off.
 
possible your body has gone

possible your body has gone through some fitness adaptations over the last year too in conjuction with your paleo diet?

there aren't a whole lot of studies suggesting that low carbs are a way to train, here's one you could look into

abstract: Skeletal muscle responds to endurance exercise via increased transcription of metabolic and stress-related

genes ultimately to yield increased steady-state levels of specific proteins. These changes in transcriptional

activity are highly dependent on the mode, duration, intensity and frequency of the contractile stimulus. One

of the major challenges for exercise physiologists over the coming decades is to identify the exercise ‘signal(s)’

that are responsible for initiating the adaptive response and the precise signal transduction pathways which

mediate the adaptive processes. In this regard, it is now becoming apparent that cellular energy status may

have an important role to play in this process. For example, many stress-and metabolic-related genes are

enhanced when the exercise is commenced under reduced pre-exercise muscle glycogen levels and attenuated

when glucose is ingested during exercise. Taken together, such findings suggest that training under conditions

of reduced carbohydrate availability from both endogenous and exogenous sources may provide an enhanced

stimulus for inducing beneficial adaptations of skeletal muscle. This hypothesis is in marked contrast to the

widely held belief that intense training periods should be supported by a high carbohydrate diet in order to

maintain training intensity and replenish energy stores for future training sessions. This paper will outline

the current thinking regarding the potential for carbohydrate availability to modulate the adaptations typically

observed following periods of endurance training. Relevant data from the literature and our own laboratory

is presented with a view to providing some potential advantages and disadvantages of training with reduced

carbohydrate availability for both athletes and coaches.

cited:

Drust, Barry, and James P. Morton. "PROMOTING ENDURANCE TRAINING ADAPTATIONS WITH NUTRITIONAL INTERVENTIONS: THE POTENTIAL BENEFITS OF 'LOW CARBOHYDRATE' TRAINING." Kinesiology 41.1 (2009): 19-24. SPORTDiscus with Full Text. EBSCO. Web. 18 Apr. 2011.
 
Yesterday I did my first long

Yesterday I did my first long bike ride followed with 3 mile run, 2.5 hours total with no food. This is working better than I expected...I'm not sure how far i can go like this but i'm willing to find out.
 
I'm not sure how many carbs

I'm not sure how many carbs I'm eating. I don't log what I eat. But I only eat at night, and I eat a primarily paleo diet. So I'm assuming my carb intake is much less than the typical diet. I don't eat anything before running.

mokamen, are you participating in my sick and twisted little experiment also?
 
Yes I am SayPay! I'm just

Yes I am SayPay! I'm just getting to longer workouts...I still plan on racing with some food but want to use Paleo friendly carbs.
 
Sweet! For those interested,

Sweet!

For those interested, here's an article about intermittent fasting (IF) and its health benefits.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/health-benefits-of-intermittent-fasting/

IF is becoming a big deal with the paleo/primal folks as it is talked about more frequently over at Mark's Daily Apple. I've been on and off an IF diet for at least the last decade. I'm just more and more skeptical of the claim that we need to be constantly feeding our bodies every couple hours to adequately function. I think it's actually the opposite. We have enough fuel within us to operate at a high level of energy and alertness.
 
I'm a bonafide grazer.

I'm a bonafide grazer. Granted I have never gone paleo, I've noticed I react poorly to intermittent fasting. What works best for me is to pretty much eat 2 decent size breakfasts and then eat fruit and vegetables all day long and then eat a big dinner. My energy levels are much more stable that way.

I am starting to believe that different things are better for different people. You obviously do well eating once a day, so I think trying different things out is probably the best thing.
 
I eat before, during, and

I eat before, during, and after runs. When I started running marathons and ultra's, the toughest thing to train myself to do was to eat while running. It took a while to figure out what I could tolerate, especially at a faster pace. Now, I can eat nearly anything during a run. The only thing that gives me trouble before a run is a big cheeseburger. I don't carbo load before a race. Instead, the night before a race, I eat a giant, traditional breakfast...ham and cheese omlette, bacon, sausage, whole wheat toast, and a homemade waffle...or two. Get up the next morning, have a bowl of kashi cereal, whatever fresh fruit happens to be in the fridge, and start nursing a 20 ounce mountain dew voltage while I drive to the race.

I like a post fasting runs to lose weight. It works great. I can get up and run before breakfast, usually 4 miles or so at a mild pace...around an 8:15 m/m right now. Doing that, along with my regular evening run, I can usually drop 3-5 pounds in a week, even with increasing my calories to compensate for the extra work.

I'm almost 40, 6 feet tall, 165 pounds in marathon trim, 172 on average, and according to my yearly physical and blood work last month, as healthy as I was when I was 18.

When people ask me why I run so much, I just tell them its cause I love to eat anything I want and not feel guilty.
 
SayPay, I don't do real long

SayPay, I don't do real long runs right now (max 10 miles) and I never ran more than 17 on a single run and only 20-35 miles per week so you can take this with a grain of salt if you want. Personally, I find that it's good for me to train while IF'ing (although I do eat more carbs than I used to because it was hurting my training to eat as low as I was going - I did 25-30g carbs per day fora very long time). BUT, on race day anything goes - Gatorade, sports beans, etc. will really help my performance. I think the trick is to train to adaption, and then give the body all the juice it can handle on race day and the body will respond really well to it and kick it into high gear. If you have an unsettled stomach, this can backfire, but my iron stomach can handle sports beans washed down with Gatorade and it really helps me maintain a solid race pace. Now, my solid race pace is anywhere from 10-11.5mm so, again, take with a grain of salt, but it's been helpful for me. I think Cordain is the one who keyed me into this way of training and racing and it got me from a 2:47 half marathon to at 2:29 half marathon. Again, not stunning speed, but it was a big improvement for me.
 
Yeah, we'll see what I do for

Yeah, we'll see what I do for races. I'm tempted to do the whole carbo load thing and see if it makes me perform better. On the other hand, I'm worried that it will just cause an insulin spike like it always does and make me crash early.
 
as a dietitian I am taught to

as a dietitian I am taught to not encourage what you are doing, but I also know and see many examples of each individual's body and needs being different. I will just say, good luck. I am going to a seminar on endurance athletics and nutrition next month and will share here what I find out.. as it is NOT my specialty- I work with some private practice clients with medical nutrition issues and at the paying job do hospital nutrition (even athletes who are hospitalized need different things then they might at home.)
 
As a dietician, do you agree

As a dietician, do you agree with nutrition as it's currently taught. I have never met a dietician who remotely seemed to have any common sense about nutrition - would be interested to hear the perspective of a barefoot dietician, who's already rejected common wisdom about something else. Hospital nutrition is horrendous IMO. I've spoken with Type II diabetics who were pushed practically 100% carb meals while in the hospital trying to get their blood sugar under control. They had to bring in their own food.
 
Well as I understand it, most

Well as I understand it, most dieticians wouldn't recommend the paleo diet either...which is the cornerstone of my diet. They would recommend a "balanced" diet which includes whole grains...which I think are the worst thing your body can ingest besides high fructose corn syrup.

My personal opinion is that nobody knows jack doo doo about nutrition, and if it works for you...do it.

By the way...I wrote a blog post for Vanessa Runs today about this very subject.

http://vanessaruns.com/2011/04/21/how-i-lost-weight-on-the-paleo-diet/
 
saypay45 wrote:Well as I

saypay45 said:
Well as I understand it, most dieticians wouldn't recommend the paleo diet either...which is the cornerstone of my diet. They would recommend a "balanced" diet which includes whole grains...which I think are the worst thing your body can ingest besides high fructose corn syrup. My personal opinion is that nobody knows jack doo doo about nutrition, and if it works for you...do it. By the way...I wrote a blog post for Vanessa Runs today about this very subject.http://vanessaruns.com/2011/04/21/how-i-lost-weight-on-the-paleo-diet/
I'm mostly paleo these days. My exception to Paleo is dairy.

Back in my pre-paleo days when I was a really big carb eater, I would get back from a Sunday long run and be famished. The first thing I did when I got in the house was find some kind of quick carb source to subdue the shaky feeling I got. I'm sure I was probably in some kind of low blood sugar state after long runs.

These days, if I eat anything before a Sunday run, it will be strictly fat and protein, and a lot of times nothing at all. I now find that I have plenty of energy during a run, and I no longer feel hungry or weak during or after the run. I think my body has learned to burn fat. Even quite thin people have enough fat to run 100's or 1,000's of miles without a problem.

I'm convinced the people pushing carb loading are the same people pushing heavily cushioned shoes.
 
My experience has been to

My experience has been to avoid eating for at least 1 to 2 hours before I run; if I run too soon after eating, I can feel the contents of my stomach sloshing, which feels gross and unsettling. I don't have this issue when hiking at a quick pace even with a heavy pack on my back. My wife can go running sooner than I after eating, so I imagine this can vary quite a bit from person to person.
 
hospital nutrition is NOT an

hospital nutrition is NOT an easy field... and there is controversy. What I do know is some things about nutrition are right, some are wrong. As a dietitian, I keep up on research as much as I can and if its is valid and evidence based, try to incorporate it into my practice- both private practice and hospital practice.

As to the pushing carbs on diabetics thing: most dietitians work on the you need to eat regularly and balance your carbs premise. Since most diabetics choose a larger amount of carbs at home when carb counting that is what the default diets go to in the hospital. We can change the menu patterns to be more protein/fat, less carbs if health appropriate (renal disease and protein restrictions often occur simultaneously with diabetes, and so does heart disease with fat restrictions) and the patient asks/tells us that is how they eat at home. I still encourage getting at least the 120 grams of carbs per day that are needed for brain health based on studies OF DIABETICS. Getting less than that makes patients more succeptible to ketoacidosis, which one does NOT want to have happen as it can kill the patient.

At work my biggest concern is not the type of food a patient eats, but getting them to eat enough food in many instances. I have several patients not eating enough to sustain life orally at the moment- which is leading to looking at alternate nutrition paths or placing them in hospice as failure to thrive.

With private practice diabetic patients I ask them to describe their preferred eating methods and then work out a meal plan accordingly. If this means removing a carb here and adding one there to balance them, I do. The premise behind carb counting is to have the same # of carbs per meal and some sort of snacks as well. I have a patient who does 2 carbs per meal and 1 per snack which is 8 carbs or 120 grams of carbohydrate. I do not suggest less than that.

I do NOT think that grains are evil. I think that grains need to be taken appropriately. I do think that to many overprocessed grains can be evil and I think that too much bran (whole grains contain the bran or outter shell of the grain) is bad.

I also think that each individual has different needs and if you have found something that works for you, more power to you. I know when I go to a higher fat/higher protein, lower carb diet I have issues, my body can only handle so much fat and so much protein... though when I am running I can increase the amount of protein without issues, if I do it when I'm not, I have problems. I still need fruits and vegetables and some grains to feel good and healthy.

That is me. My husband does better with less grain, more protein.. and can handle a bit more fat than I can.

We are all unique.
 
I cannot disagree more with

I cannot disagree more with your stance on carbs, Khyricat, especially for diabetics. Meals and snacks for someone whose blood sugar spikes and crashes after every intake of food? No thanks. (I am not diabetic, was told I would never develop it, but hubby struggles with his and is technically prediabetic). 120 g of carbs that needs to be topped up with insulin constantly is criminal, IMO. I don't care what diabetics eat at home - in the hospital they should be getting nourishing, healing food. Fat restricting is bullshit, especially if you are talking about brain function.
 
with long acting insulin and

with long acting insulin and many type 2 diabetics who use other meds that are not insulin carb counting is needed. By eating smaller amounts more frequently they don't experience the spikes and lows you are mentioning. You are right- people who need short acting insulin and are brittle diabetics are a different picture, but the body still needs carbs, fat and protein. And restricting fat is NOT limiting it to small amounts, but preventing people from eating a ton of butter and other fats and not eating other nutrients. More importantly- in a diabetic diet at a hospital it is FORCING them to INCLUDE fat in their choices. I do believe that fat is needed for brain and body function, but not in the quantities many americans eat it and that limiting it in patients who have medical conditions it makes worse is part of controlling those conditions.

I also believe that MORE autistic people should be on a GFCF diet than are (gluten and dairy (casein) free), but the research to prove/disprove that is still ongoing and not published yet.

Amie
 

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