No eating before or during running?

[Abide]

My question is what diet

My question is what diet composition is best for training? I can gain a lot of strength/speed when I increase my carb intake to 500g a day without changing my protein or fat intake. If I raise my protein intake I have less energy and don't see a benefit. If I increase my fat intake and keep carbs lower I get fat... It seems that 60-20-20 works pretty well for me.

Here is an article about the breakdown of carbs. It is an ineresting read.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/how-many-carbohydrates-do-you-need.html

 

[Shacky]

that was a good read Abide.

that was a good read Abide. I've read Lyle's book on the Ketogenic Diet before.

 

[khyricat]

Abide-I don't know him at

Abide-

I don't know him at all, and I don't agree with all he states there, but I do agree with some of it. The article inspired me to write something on my own business blog though (along with parts of this discussion).

http://www.eating4living.com/content/carbohydrates-necessity-or-evil

I am not going to rewrite it all here. I did note some points that I remember from my own much longer distance than I am running now days and working with a real coach (like individual total caloric needs are very similar, but timing for when to intake those calories and what type of calories seems to vary a lot on individual).



Shacky-

A meal like that would make many people feel that gassy and burpy even without the run, and running slows DOWN many peoples digestive tracts, so it would have prolonged the effect and made it worse for you. I am sorry to see you had to deal with it though.

Amie

 

[NakedSoleNate]

Just curious...as i already

Just curious...as i already stated, I don't like to eat before physical activity...even before a long run...in short or meduim runs (up to 13 miles) I'm usually very hungry later....but after long runs, I'm not hungry at all, I don't want to eat anything...until about mid-late afternoon the NEXT day, and then I'm hungry again. Anyone else experience this? Of course, I make my self eat a little, and make sure I hydrate....but I have no appetite until more than 24 hours after.

 

[mykroberts]

I am in no way an expert on

I am in no way an expert on this, and I am basically just making this up but I will offer a possible explanation. Therapeutic fasting (detoxification etc) aims to "shut down" the digestive system. The digestive system monopolizes a lot of your bodies resources - it takes a lot of energy to keep that machine plugging away. By fasting and switching to your fat reserves, your body is free to focus on other items like lingering injuries etc. People often experience pain/swelling/heat in old injuries, sickness from released toxins, and sometimes even get high from previous indulgences.



Maybe your long runs kind of do the reverse. A long run may produce enough sustained stress on your body that it chooses to throw your digestive system and appetite into neutral. This way it can conserve energy as a response to yoru current physical stress.

 

[NakedSoleNate]

cool.  and it makes sense...I

cool. and it makes sense...I do have a sensitive gut...in the past during times of stress, my appetite is the first to go.

 

[Barefoot Joe]

mykroberts wrote:I am in no

I am in no way an expert on this, and I am basically just making this up but I will offer a possible explanation. Therapeutic fasting (detoxification etc) aims to "shut down" the digestive system. The digestive system monopolizes a lot of your bodies resources - it takes a lot of energy to keep that machine plugging away. By fasting and switching to your fat reserves, your body is free to focus on other items like lingering injuries etc. People often experience pain/swelling/heat in old injuries, sickness from released toxins, and sometimes even get high from previous indulgences.

I had experienced this phenomena at the end of last summer, as I was fasting for the start of Ramadan.

The first day: After waking up at 6 AM and going to work in the Galt flea market with my Dad and two younger brothers, we unloaded our van, worked the crowd until 2 or 3 PM, and then packed up the boxes and loaded the van back up. During all this time we did not eat or drink a single thing. After coming home at 4 PM, we all collapsed. I started visualizing things and my body got so hot at one point that my eyes were bloodshot yet my body was shivering?? My left shoulder that I had surgery on years ago kep twitching like crazy. Finally, we got up when the sun was starting to come down at 8 and broke our fast at 8:30. I felt soo sick as I was eating that I had to go to the bathroom and threw up everything I ate. I felt so much better afterwards and I ate and passed out...woke up the next day as if I was Reborn.

Turend out that this happened only to me and not my other family members because it was my first time fasting in years. So I'm planning on doing it more often this Ramadan (one month long).

 

[jschwab]

I don't get what you are

I don't get what you are saying about ketosis and ketoacidosis at all in your blog post, Khyricat. I was in ketosis for 9 months straight (had trouble eating) with each of my kids and never had any MD say that that was any kind of issue at all or I was at risk of deveoping diabetes, let alone falling into diabetic coma. If ketosis was so dangerous, how could they use a ketogenic diet to treat epilepsy and other disorders? Low carb dieters ala Atkins can remain in ketosis for decades. The only thing that keeps my husband's blood sugar under control is remaining on a ketogenic diet. He's skinny, he exercises, but if he goes over about 20g carbs a day, he gets reactive hypoglycemia. He hasn't been able to shake his elevated A1C, but it hasn't gotten worse, and it would be alot worse if he kept to your 140g a day (he was zoned out in a sugar high constantly when he ate like that). It makes me so mad that he blew out his pancreas eating high carbhis whole life when all his body told him to eat was fat and protein, following doctor's advice and mainstream nutritional advice. He became prediabetic in his 30's on a diet of brown rice, tofu and broccoli. I don't want to lose my husband early because of misinformation - it's very personal for me. I have dear friends struggling to control their blood sugar with Type II diabetes with RD's and MD's telling them it's OK to eat cake. For me, that is just negligence.

 

[khyricat]

Jschwab:As I said everyone

Jschwab:

As I said everyone is different, but there are a number of reported medical cases of issues with long term pure ketosis. I have seen some in the hospital I work in. I have also seen patients who did fine on super low carb diets like your husband, and others who had a LOT of issues due to it.

One reason why RD's will tell a patient its ok to eat cake (not preferred by a long shot) is that I'd rather see a client eat a small piece of cake on occasion as a treat than not follow ANY diet and wind up with the long term issues of uncontrolled blood sugar. Unfortunately part of my job is not to just tell them to follow the ideal diet, but to find one that will work for them and WILL be followed. I gave up yesterday with a 400 pound patient who has heart disease, diabetes and is on the verge of losing a limb, along with having severe peripheral neuropathy already. She absolutely refused to consider changing what she was eating unless I could substitute another acceptable to HER food item in. Considering the quantity of fat and kcal she was eating, and that nothing I offered as a substitute was acceptable, I gave up after awhile and walked away. This was a hospitalized patient who was hospitalized due to heart issues and yet consistantly ordered a ton of butter and sour cream and potatoes each day along with cream based soups and ice cream. The only thing she was willing to actively control was her sodium intake.

She is an example of an extreme, but its rare for me to get a patient willing to completely remake their diet. I don't like the idea of 20 grams of carbs as its so low on the healthy vegetables too. If it works for him, go for it. I'd love to know more. I have never seen a patient who truly was able to stick to that type of diet for any length of time, or who had beneficial results. I have patients thrive with no fruits and grains, but it's rare to have them willing to, and most of them still do a lot more carbs than you mention- dairy products have carbs, even things like rice and soy milk. So do beans, which are a great low fat source of protein. I find most patients do better with low glycemic index foods then high, but that doesn't mean all will willingly make the change. I also find a lot of people who claim to lead super low carb diets when quizzed on their diets have more carbs involved then they realize.

I'd love to see REAL research done on a super low carb diet like you describe, but even Atkins never actually did any controllable research studies that way. he didn't stick to his own diet for long. I have personally seen a # of people who tried atkins and similar diets go through the personality shift mentioned- normally a result of brain chemistry changes that reverts once they start eating normally again.

 

[jschwab]

Kyricat, there is so much in

Kyricat, there is so much in your post that I just don't understand and don't agree with. Even my most mainstream nurse and NP friends (and my own docs) do not believe anymore that you can handle heart disease through restricting fat, saturated or otherwise. If you are asking a 400 pound diabetic person with heart disease to restrict fat along with their cake, there is no chance in hell they will ever follow. They will never achieve satiety on a low fat diet.

Why do you think Atkins didn't follow his own diet? As for studies, almost every day headlines scream that the latest research shows a low carb diet works well. Atkins didn't conduct studies because he was a practitioner, not a researcher. Most low carb diet studies restrict fat as welll as carbs or allow too many carbs to be ketogenic, so they are not helpful.

I mean, you have a body, right? Last night i ate a very ripe plantain before going to bed and I woke up hungry. That never happens eating low carb foods. It's so clear to me how excess sugar leads to overweight, blood sugar crashes, problems with satiety. But if you are not willing to give people what their bodies need (esp. fat), they will always be hungry for the sugar.

 

[saypay45]

I seem to have stumbled upon

I seem to have stumbled upon the expert on intermittent fasting (IF) and training a few days ago. Here's his website

www.leangains.com

His diet centers around IF for a period of 14 hours, followed by three small meals over the course of about 8-10 hours. And of course, he always recommends training in a fasted state. Pretty interesting stuff. He seems to know his stuff. I especially like the "10 myths about IF" where he explains how he thinks we got so fixated on the concept of eating every few hours as being the healthiest thing to do.

 

[jschwab]

C.P., it's easy to even go

C.P., it's easy to even go much farther than that. I do best on a 23/1 fast, some people do 20/4 or 18/6. I basically don't eat for 23 hours and then eat a big meal over the course of an hour. It sounds like a starvation diet but I have actually gained weight eating this way (if I eat alot of carbs). The key to making it work, especially when training hard, is to eat enough at that one meal. Recently, I have not been as vigilant about really eating enough during this meal. Right now, about every third day I will eat at night, too (works out to a meal at noon, then around 9pm). It still works, but if I do keep to a solid 23/1 fast, it's magic - more energy, better body composition, better training sessions. etc. Eating every few hours puts so much stress on the body - it never gets a break.

 

[Matt]

saypay45 wrote:I seem to have

I seem to have stumbled upon the expert on intermittent fasting (IF) and training a few days ago. Here's his website www.leangains.com His diet centers around IF for a period of 14 hours, followed by three small meals over the course of about 8-10 hours. And of course, he always recommends training in a fasted state. Pretty interesting stuff. He seems to know his stuff. I especially like the "10 myths about IF" where he explains how he thinks we got so fixated on the concept of eating every few hours as being the healthiest thing to do.

He definitely demonstrates that Fasting doesn't mean withering away. Supposedly, Herschel Walker is only eats one meal a day, and even nearing the age of 50, he's still quite ripped.

SP, have you checked out any of Art DeVany's stuff? The guy is well respected in the Paleo community. He's in his 70's, but is probably healthier than 99% of people half his age.

 

[Matt]

jschwab wrote:C.P., it's easy

C.P., it's easy to even go much farther than that. I do best on a 23/1 fast, some people do 20/4 or 18/6. I basically don't eat for 23 hours and then eat a big meal over the course of an hour. It sounds like a starvation diet but I have actually gained weight eating this way (if I eat alot of carbs). The key to making it work, especially when training hard, is to eat enough at that one meal. Recently, I have not been as vigilant about really eating enough during this meal. Right now, about every third day I will eat at night, too (works out to a meal at noon, then around 9pm). It still works, but if I do keep to a solid 23/1 fast, it's magic - more energy, better body composition, better training sessions. etc. Eating every few hours puts so much stress on the body - it never gets a break.

It sounds like you've found the right mix for you. I think IF isn't for everyone, though. I've heard that for some people it's a little too stressful and results in too much cortisol, which unfortunately tells the body to start storing fat.

My own experience is that ketosis is a great state to be in.

 

[jschwab]

Yeah, definitely not for

Yeah, definitely not for everybody. And I have a feeling if I ran alot more than I do, I would not be able to manage it, either. But it's interesting to look at how people can really thrive on regular fasting - awhile ago Running Times prolfiled a Masters champion who eats just like I do (but runs low mileage for an elite). For me, eating constantly has the cortisol effect - just constant stress.

I don't know how much fasting is utilized therapeutically but our doctor even told us when my husband mentioned doing a similar fast to mine to control his blood sugar that she actually tells her diabetic patients who cannot get their blood sugar under control to do a 4 day fast. That kind of shocked me, but she said it's the fastest way to get levels down. Of course, nobody does it .

 

[Abide]

NakedSoleNate wrote:Just

Just curious...as i already stated, I don't like to eat before physical activity...even before a long run...in short or meduim runs (up to 13 miles) I'm usually very hungry later....but after long runs, I'm not hungry at all, I don't want to eat anything...until about mid-late afternoon the NEXT day, and then I'm hungry again. Anyone else experience this? Of course, I make my self eat a little, and make sure I hydrate....but I have no appetite until more than 24 hours after

Yeah me too, if I run less than 10 miles I will be starving right after anything more and it is the exact same as you. I literally have to force myself to eat.

 

[Abide]

jschwab wrote:I mean, you

I mean, you have a body, right? Last night i ate a very ripe plantain before going to bed and I woke up hungry. That never happens eating low carb foods. It's so clear to me how excess sugar leads to overweight, blood sugar crashes, problems with satiety. But if you are not willing to give people what their bodies need (esp. fat), they will always be hungry for the sugar.

Janine aren't you supposed to be hungry after you haven't eaten in 8 hours? I cannot control my hunger, I'm curious how you all do when you IF? I will literally be sitting at work starving and dreaming about food after 4-5 hours of not eating. I can go from 8pm to 10am with some success but come 10 am I am so hungry I literally eat more than if I just spaced it out some.

 

[Matt]

jschwab wrote:Yeah,

Yeah, definitely not for everybody. And I have a feeling if I ran alot more than I do, I would not be able to manage it, either. But it's interesting to look at how people can really thrive on regular fasting - awhile ago Running Times prolfiled a Masters champion who eats just like I do (but runs low mileage for an elite). For me, eating constantly has the cortisol effect - just constant stress.I don't know how much fasting is utilized therapeutically but our doctor even told us when my husband mentioned doing a similar fast to mine to control his blood sugar that she actually tells her diabetic patients who cannot get their blood sugar under control to do a 4 day fast. That kind of shocked me, but she said it's the fastest way to get levels down. Of course, nobody does it .

I think I have a similar reaction to IF as you do. I find that once by the afternoon, I'm get quite a buzz from fasting.

I'm pretty sure that my blood sugar was a little out of control back when I was eating a high carb diet.

And if you buy into evolution, I'm sure that Paleo humans went long periods between meals at times. And if you are on a hunt and haven't eaten for a day or two, the ideal state to be in is alert, with good energy -- pretty much how most people are when they fast.

 

[khyricat]

Janine-I never tell patients

Janine-

I never tell patients NO FAT.. I actually encourage patients who are on low fat or weightloss diets (and diabetics as well) to try to get fat, protein and carbs into each meal and snack for satiety. I do work with patients on improving the TYPES of fats they eat or reducing the amounts when I sit in a room and hear them mention eating fried everything or other very high fat diets that don't have much nutritional value. The patient I mentioned in my post last night was ordering butter, sour cream (multiples of each), cream based soup, and ice cream with lunch and dinner. She was also diabetic and ordering potato, roll, meat/veggie burger, and occasionally a side salad or broccoli. Her meals were fairly consistant though she did vary the piece of meat and form of the potato from one meal to the next and some meals came with a burger bun and some a roll. I was trying to convince her to eat less fat and fewer carbs. Not none of either. Just to expand her menu options a bit to things that might work better and help her with some of her health issues. As a side note- the patient in question weighed in at approximately 350 pounds and was out of breath moving from bed to chair. She refused to walk to the bathroom in her room.

A healthy diet for a non diabetic person should consist of 20-30% fat, 30-40% protein and the balance carbs, preferablyu healthy carbs. Mind you that is caloric percentages and fat is 9kcal/gram, protein and carbs are closer to 4.

Amie

 

[jschwab]

Abide wrote:jschwab wrote:I

I mean, you have a body, right? Last night i ate a very ripe plantain before going to bed and I woke up hungry. That never happens eating low carb foods. It's so clear to me how excess sugar leads to overweight, blood sugar crashes, problems with satiety. But if you are not willing to give people what their bodies need (esp. fat), they will always be hungry for the sugar.

Janine aren't you supposed to be hungry after you haven't eaten in 8 hours? I cannot control my hunger, I'm curious how you all do when you IF? I will literally be sitting at work starving and dreaming about food after 4-5 hours of not eating. I can go from 8pm to 10am with some success but come 10 am I am so hungry I literally eat more than if I just spaced it out some.

You have to adjust to it. It takes a couple of weeks to adjust and those weeks can be tough, but it's like running. Once you have done it, your body has memory and you can pick it up anytime without it being too dififcult. It's great for convenience. If you are at a party where there is only junk food, once you are used to fasting, you just. don't. eat. It's awesome to have that ability when there is no acceptable food. A common method people use to adjust is to delay an hour each day until they work up to doing the fast they want. The thing that seemed to trip me up most in the beginning is remembering to eat enough food. You have to be really intentional about how much you eat or else you will get too hungry. So if you eat lunch and dinner and you just want to eat lunch you HAVE to eat the equivalent at lunch of what you would have eaten separated out over both meals. When I mess up eating this way, it's because I have not eaten enough during my one meal. I am not hungry at all in the 23 hours I am not eating. It sounds crazy but that's how it's been for me (unless I slack and don't eat enough or get in the habit of snacking before bed). It's really good because it means I can train right after work (around 7pm) instead of desperately scarfing down anything I can get my hands on before training.