Don't shorten your stride!

[Bare Lee]

Thanks again for the comments and suggestions Phil, SevenShips, B&A, Lawrence, and everyone else, whether directed towards me, others, or put out there as general info. I don't know if I always agree with the single-variable approach, but in this case, yes, as I've said above, I'm going to start with the knee drive, and then possibly look into the idea of extension. When I look at Lawrence and B&A run, they look pretty similar to Dr. Mark (although the Pose technique does seem to differ with respect to the 'lean'), and I'm with BarefootGburg on the idea of using mental imagery as inspiration and guide. That semi-mindless approach can work too I think. It'll be fun to have 7ships have a look in a few weeks too. And maybe when I start to up the speed a bit I'll set up a video cam and do a little gait analysis on my own. Maybe even post it for feedback. Anyway, it's been a great discussion. I've come around to the idea that thinking about technique is a good idea, but also aware of the fact that I may already be doing things just fine by feel. To paraphrase a certain barefoot (or was it minimalist?) Greek, "an unexamined gait is not worth running."

 

[Lawrence Smith]

I like this quote from Aldo Leopold in his In A Sand County Almanac (1949): “I once knew an educated lady, banded by Phi Beta Kappa, who told me that she had never heard or seen the geese that twice a year proclaim the revolving seasons to her well-insulated roof. Is education possibly a process of trading awareness for things of less worth?”

Which means, to me, that awareness of what we are doing is often hidden behind the information of thought. Have fun, Lee, and don`t over-think it!

 

[Bare Lee]

Thanks Lawrence, I was just looking at your site! I really like your explanations and writing style in general. It's the kind of no-nonsense, simple style I try to use in my own (linguistic anthropological) writing. You've kind of sold me on the importance of extension. I'll try it later today on my run, although today is my 'hills' day so it's not the best format.
OK, today I really have to do more of my own work. These email notifications are deadly.

 

[Lawrence Smith]

Finally some written advice I can relate to, wish I wrote this first. I never understood why people stress high cadence and short stride with barefoot running, it's not needed.

http://www.alexandertechnique-running.com/?p=193

I was working on my site, and messed up the permalinks. Here is the link to "Should I shorten my stride":

http://www.alexandertechnique-running.com/?page_id=395

 

[barefootandagile]

I was working on my site, and messed up the permalinks. Here is the link to "Should I shorten my stride":

http://www.alexandertechnique-running.com/?page_id=395

Hi, I have also been reading your blog site. I always enjoy reading others opinions, thoughts and experience. I have a number of disagreements that maybe we can chat about in the future.

 

[Lawrence Smith]

Hi, I have also been reading your blog site. I always enjoy reading others opinions, thoughts and experience. I have a number of disagreements that maybe we can chat about in the future.

I'm always ready to discuss, baretootdandagile. However, I will admit that over 20 years of teaching the Alexander Technique to athletes, dancers, musicians and street-cleaners has given me some pretty strong opinions on posture. So the core idea I present is that running does itself if one can eliminate the the things that adversely affect resting posture. Therefore, I am never looking for how to run, but I am looking at what happens when natural runners run, and looking to avoid things that interfere with basic reflexes.

 

[Barefoot_AK]

I'm always ready to discuss, baretootdandagile. However, I will admit that over 20 years of teaching the Alexander Technique to athletes, dancers, musicians and street-cleaners has given me some pretty strong opinions on posture. So the core idea I present is that running does itself if one can eliminate the the things that adversely affect resting posture. Therefore, I am never looking for how to run, but I am looking at what happens when natural runners run, and looking to avoid things that interfere with basic reflexes.

When you used the word reflex are you using it as it should be in the scientific definition of the term or when you say basic reflex are you just using it as a word to describe a common motor movement? If you mean to discuss true reflexes that are basic I am curious what you mean by this and what "reflexes" you are referring to. There is only a very limited amount of actual reflexes that we as humans possess and a large majority of them disappear with natural human development and aging.

 

[Lawrence Smith]

I'm writing mostly on stretch reflexes and how muscles react to stretch. Specifically, the interosseus reflex of the postive suppportive response, that keeps us upright. And the very important vestibulo-nuchal and tonic neck reflexes, which are essential for movement. I am interested in how non-interference with the neck reflexes allows the stretch reflexes to integrate the biarticular muscles of the legs in running, allowing us to transfer the work of the glutes through to the toes.

Further, there are early reflexes, like the Moro Reflex, which are believed to disappear in infancy, but which seem to me to continue to appear in less evident ways, such as the kind of shoulder tension that people get when stressed. Which seems to come from grasping reflexes very similar to the Moro Reflex. Of course, this is the work of the Alexander Technique -- to avoid interference with the head-neck sensory motor system to allow better coordination in movement.

 

[Last Place Jason]

Ummm... you guys are REALLY over-thinking this. As far as figuring out good form, there's a few things that seem fairly standard (shorter, faster strides, midfoot landing, blah, blah, blah). Each of the methods discussed in this thread (Ken Bob's stuff, Mark's stuff, Pose, Chi, etc.) all get to that same basic point... it's just a matter of finding the method that is best suited to your learning style. All are good; all will work for some people.

As far as generic "shorten your stride" advice- that really pertains to brand-new barefoot runners coming from a raised heel shod lifestyle. They have a tendency to overstride, and shortening the stride or increasing cadence helps eliminate that. There is a definite point of diminishing returns where stride length can become too short. As such, it can't be used as a general recommendation (just like "bend your knees" or "lean forward a little more").

If you're looking for the "best" method, it's an individual journey. You'll never find a consensus among a group because each of us got to where we are via different methods. My advice- think less and drink more beer.

 

[Last Place Jason]

Also, don't be too hard on the folks that make money teaching people to run better. Some of us have dedicated our lives to it and strive to make a difference. Most of us live pretty sparse lifestyles... ask to see Ken Bob's apartment some day. Remember, we have kids to feed, too.

 

[Lawrence Smith]

Ummm... you guys are REALLY over-thinking this. As far as figuring out good form, there's a few things that seem fairly standard (shorter, faster strides, midfoot landing, blah, blah, blah). Each of the methods discussed in this thread (Ken Bob's stuff, Mark's stuff, Pose, Chi, etc.) all get to that same basic point... it's just a matter of finding the method that is best suited to your learning style. All are good; all will work for some people.

As far as generic "shorten your stride" advice- that really pertains to brand-new barefoot runners coming from a raised heel shod lifestyle. They have a tendency to overstride, and shortening the stride or increasing cadence helps eliminate that. There is a definite point of diminishing returns where stride length can become too short. As such, it can't be used as a general recommendation (just like "bend your knees" or "lean forward a little more").

If you're looking for the "best" method, it's an individual journey. You'll never find a consensus among a group because each of us got to where we are via different methods. My advice- think less and drink more beer.

Learning about how something can work is helpful in understanding what not to do. Alexander stated "Sometimes when you don't do the wrong thing, the right thing does itself." This is certainly true of posture and running, which any 5 year-old can do better than almost all of us.

So, don't try too hard and... drink more beer

 

[Barefoot_AK]

I'm writing mostly on stretch reflexes and how muscles react to stretch. Specifically, the interosseus reflex of the postive suppportive response, that keeps us upright. And the very important vestibulo-nuchal and tonic neck reflexes, which are essential for movement. I am interested in how non-interference with the neck reflexes allows the stretch reflexes to integrate the biarticular muscles of the legs in running, allowing us to transfer the work of the glutes through to the toes.

Further, there are early reflexes, like the Moro Reflex, which are believed to disappear in infancy, but which seem to me to continue to appear in less evident ways, such as the kind of shoulder tension that people get when stressed. Which seems to come from grasping reflexes very similar to the Moro Reflex. Of course, this is the work of the Alexander Technique -- to avoid interference with the head-neck sensory motor system to allow better coordination in movement.

Can you help me out here? When I think of the tonic neck reflex I think of the symmetric and asymmetric tonic reflexes that I was taught about in my Motor Development and Motor Learning/Control courses. These reflexes much like the Moro reflex disappear after infancy unless there is some sort of nervous system pathology. Could you link me to somewhere that I can get educated on this?

 

[BarefootGburg]

I looked at your blog site, and I was struck by the pictures a-top your site. In those pictures, at least, you seem to be looking down more than ahead. I tend to try to hold my head high, like I was, oh, I don't know, scanning the savannah (I do tend to use imagery when I run). I don't strain to hold it high, but I do avoid bending my neck, looking down, except when I'm picking my footfalls carefully, on strewn ground.

What do you think?

I'm writing mostly on stretch reflexes and how muscles react to stretch. Specifically, the interosseus reflex of the postive suppportive response, that keeps us upright. And the very important vestibulo-nuchal and tonic neck reflexes, which are essential for movement. I am interested in how non-interference with the neck reflexes allows the stretch reflexes to integrate the biarticular muscles of the legs in running, allowing us to transfer the work of the glutes through to the toes.

Further, there are early reflexes, like the Moro Reflex, which are believed to disappear in infancy, but which seem to me to continue to appear in less evident ways, such as the kind of shoulder tension that people get when stressed. Which seems to come from grasping reflexes very similar to the Moro Reflex. Of course, this is the work of the Alexander Technique -- to avoid interference with the head-neck sensory motor system to allow better coordination in movement.

 

[Lawrence Smith]

I looked at your blog site, and I was struck by the pictures a-top your site. In those pictures, at least, you seem to be looking down more than ahead. I tend to try to hold my head high, like I was, oh, I don't know, scanning the savannah (I do tend to use imagery when I run). I don't strain to hold it high, but I do avoid bending my neck, looking down, except when I'm picking my footfalls carefully, on strewn ground.

What do you think?

I'm looking down for sure, but only because there was glass on the track that day and I was barefoot. Not a very good model. I'm making some videos that will be less quirky, I hope.

 

[barefootandagile]

I'm looking down for sure, but only because there was glass on the track that day and I was barefoot. Not a very good model. I'm making some videos that will be less quirky, I hope.

You read my mind. Looking forward to seeing you run

 

[BarefootGburg]

Good to know. It ran sort of counter to your emphasis on posture, or so it seemed to me.

I'm looking down for sure, but only because there was glass on the track that day and I was barefoot. Not a very good model. I'm making some videos that will be less quirky, I hope.

 

[Lawrence Smith]

Can you help me out here? When I think of the tonic neck reflex I think of the symmetric and asymmetric tonic reflexes that I was taught about in my Motor Development and Motor Learning/Control courses. These reflexes much like the Moro reflex disappear after infancy unless there is some sort of nervous system pathology. Could you link me to somewhere that I can get educated on this?

Barefoot AK, you probably know more than I do about reflexes. The neck reflexes I am referring to are more accurately called "Magnus and De Kleijn reflexes". Simply, they are the reflexes in mammals which cause the body to follow the head. Eye movement directly effects sub-occiptal muscles. All that I wish to point out is how there are many things that the body does without having to learn them (postural responses), and often the best approach to a problem is not to do something new, but to look at what we are already doing that might be causing a problem -- and stop doing those things. So, if we don't interfere with postural reflexes, we should have no problem running. I'm reacting to 40 years of listening to people tell me how to run. Now I am convinced that running does itself if we can remove bad habits that mess up posture.

The Head-neck Sensory Motor System, editor Alain Berthoz, is one of the most complete sources for understanding how the body prepares for movement in the head-neck region, and, thus, any undo tension in the neck adversely affects balance and all aspects of postural adaptation. Which brings us to the Alexander Technique, a method with a hundred year history of helping people become more efficient and adaptable by freeing their necks (at least that is where the work begins).

 

[7ships]

Also, don't be too hard on the folks that make money teaching people to run better. Some of us have dedicated our lives to it and strive to make a difference. Most of us live pretty sparse lifestyles... ask to see Ken Bob's apartment some day. Remember, we have kids to feed, too.

Oh sure, this coming from the guy living in a luxy trailer down by the river

 

[7ships]

I'm looking down for sure, but only because there was glass on the track that day and I was barefoot. Not a very good model. I'm making some videos that will be less quirky, I hope.

This actually brings up one of the reasons I like to wear minimalist shoes on many runs. Sometimes I want to spend more time looking around me and less focused on the ground. It bothers my neck after a while too.

 

[Lawrence Smith]

This actually brings up one of the reasons I like to wear minimalist shoes on many runs. Sometimes I want to spend more time looking around me and less focused on the ground. It bothers my neck after a while too.

Me, too. I tend to use a closer focus when running barefoot, because even small pebbles are to be avoided. (I live in Montreal, and run in shoes all winter, except for occasional indoor track running, so my feet are pretty tender in the Spring.) Running in my Merrell Trail Gloves, I can have a more open gaze, and will tend to unconsciously avoid larger stones, etc. I don't enjoy the having to be careful when running on dirt paths barefoot. Interestingly (at least to those who think running barefoot is nuts), I like running on cement and asphalt barefoot, as it is very easy to see significant stones.