U
I like using my watch and internal metronome(brain) to count out the cadence and feel it.
I like using my watch and internal metronome(brain) to count out the cadence and feel it.
Don't shorten your stride!
- Thread starter Barefoot Gentile
- Start date
NickW
Guest
I'm in this boat too. I've been doing a lot of Dr Marks exercises lately and really working on form myself. I find the same thing where when trying to run like him feels so much smoother and more, something (not sure how to explain it), I get going way to fast and I won't say I get winded but I do get breathing a bit harder.
Going faster certainly taxes our cardio/aerobic system as well as our muscle more than going slower. Tough to say whether or not you were winded more from the faster running than you can handle or if you were breathing harder do to less efficiency of running technique. Could be a little of both but my prefered way of analyzing the situation would be via video of ttechnique at certain paces and evaluation of training over time to see if your body is adapting in all of the physical areas needed to sustain training paces you desire.
Nickw,
Btw, I am not an advocate of driving with the knees. By all means experiment with it and do it if you feel it is helpful.
Btw, I am not an advocate of driving with the knees. By all means experiment with it and do it if you feel it is helpful.
NickW
Guest
barefootandagile, it's the speed that is getting me. I get going considerably faster than normal. It's amazing how much better it feels though. It reminds me of back when I used to be decently fast. I remember the feeling of running fast anyhow is what I mean when running like Dr Mark. Oh and I am not driving my knee, I was wondering where you came up with that so I re-read my post and quote and saw Bare Lee says he is. I'm trying to run using Dr Marks advice and find myself running much faster but I feel smoother and more efficient.
Lee:
There's lots of good info here. For me, as a long-time long-strider and heel-striker, I had 20+ years of muscle memory that some set-cadence music helped me tremendously with in reprogramming my cadence to be much quicker. The other biggest help for me was having an already-converted BFR watch me run and make suggestions as we went along together. Great feedback really helped me dial in what still works for me.
As far as kicking up the cadence rate once per month, I'd be very careful of that one until you are very solid on your foot tone/strength after several months of lots of barefoot living and running to give the connecting tissues and fine motor-control muscles in your feet plenty of time to recover from years of atrophy before doing anything so potentially rash as sprinting barefoot. And I'm not sure that once-weekly interval runs would really help pick up your cadence on distance runs, as they are a different exercise. Training your muscles to do something repetitive generally requires deliberately doing that thing repetitively enough and often enough to burn it into muscle memory. Intervals are great to do, don't get me wrong, but I don't think they'll be your answer to effectively trying out a faster cadence.
There's lots of good info here. For me, as a long-time long-strider and heel-striker, I had 20+ years of muscle memory that some set-cadence music helped me tremendously with in reprogramming my cadence to be much quicker. The other biggest help for me was having an already-converted BFR watch me run and make suggestions as we went along together. Great feedback really helped me dial in what still works for me.
As far as kicking up the cadence rate once per month, I'd be very careful of that one until you are very solid on your foot tone/strength after several months of lots of barefoot living and running to give the connecting tissues and fine motor-control muscles in your feet plenty of time to recover from years of atrophy before doing anything so potentially rash as sprinting barefoot. And I'm not sure that once-weekly interval runs would really help pick up your cadence on distance runs, as they are a different exercise. Training your muscles to do something repetitive generally requires deliberately doing that thing repetitively enough and often enough to burn it into muscle memory. Intervals are great to do, don't get me wrong, but I don't think they'll be your answer to effectively trying out a faster cadence.
Several yrs back now about 8 as I was working at retooling and refining my running technique heavily. I would go on daily runs and cound 1,2,3,4.....over and over for the entire run. Of course I would lose focus here and there but any time I found my mind wonder I went right back to 1,2,3,4 counting of my cadence(footstrikes). Over days and weeks of doing this regularly it helped get me to where I am now. Which is very good at keeping a constant cadence and a wide range of speeds.
NickW
Guest
Nick,
I have watched both vids before. You said you don't use the active knee drive advice but Dr. Mark does think that is what one should do when running faster/sprinting. I personally don't believe that one should ever actively drive the knee. There are other elements of his drill recommendations that I don't agree with. Not trying to bash Dr. mark as I think he sounds like a very well intended thoughtful and careing relatively accomplished runner.
I have watched both vids before. You said you don't use the active knee drive advice but Dr. Mark does think that is what one should do when running faster/sprinting. I personally don't believe that one should ever actively drive the knee. There are other elements of his drill recommendations that I don't agree with. Not trying to bash Dr. mark as I think he sounds like a very well intended thoughtful and careing relatively accomplished runner.
Thanks for the feedback Phil, Nick, and Bareandagile. I'll try to address your comments and suggestions in aggregate for the most part.
I've been in superb aerobic condition before, while traveling through Africa, the Middle East and Europe on bicycle for two years, so I now know almost immediately when I'm getting out of the aerobic zone and building up lactic acid (if I remember my college biology correctly). That's basically what I mean by getting winded. It's a pace I can't sustain for very long. A friend gave me his old HR monitor last fall, and it simply confirmed what I already knew. According to the Mayo Clinic Max Heart Rate formula (which is higher than the Maf method) I consistently run and row in the proper aerobic range without thinking about it. The minute I exert beyond it, I know.
I'm also dubious about whether I'm ready to up the speed much at this point. Last November I jumped from five to ten miles and got a tiny stress fracture in my left foot. It didn't hurt too much, but it's only been since the beginning of March that it's been feeling completely fine again. So I'm building up more slowly this time. I stayed in the 2-3 mile range over the winter, more or less 3x a week, and then beginning in March, when all residual aching disappeared, began working my way up again. Yesterday I tried seven miles, but I started to feel it a bit in my metatarsals, and so ended up walking the last two miles in order not to risk re-injury. Today my feet feel fine, so I think I'll stay in the five-mile range for at least another few weeks. It's frustrating, but at my age (50), I'm beginning to learn patience. I'm almost a year into this latest chapter of the BFR experiment, although I have run barefoot before, in the late 80s, and have run shod before, for about two years at the turn of this century. During this last period I ran five miles 3x a week without any problems. Plus, I've been a barefooter by preference for most of my adult life, so I feel like my feet are in reasonable condition, but obviously they weren't ready for 10 miles back in November. It hasn't helped that I started out about 40-50 pounds overweight. I've already lost 25 pounds, and continue to lose about 2-3 pounds a month now that I've reestablished a good exercise regimen. And a lighter load will only help with the running. The virtuous cycle has been established.
I also used to be pretty fast, did well in the 400 and 800 the one year I went out for track, and played safety in football, so as Nick says, it would be great to feel my legs running with speed again. But I know sprinting puts even more stress on the foot, so I'm going to hold off on that until I can consistently run seven to ten miles in the seven-to-eight-minute-mile range.
Thanks Phil for your advice on interval training. Contemplating different running routines is new to me. Before I just ran a certain distance at whatever pace felt good and that was it. I did recently start doing hills a few weeks ago, and that feels pretty good, so I've been wondering about interval training too. It would be great to get some wind-sprints in once in a while too, but that's a ways off.
I appreciate B&A's advice for gait analysis, and luckily Johnny will be helping me out with that in a few weeks.
As for the knee-drive tip, it's at the 2:00 minute mark on Dr. Mark's video. Of course, it's just one aspect of his total analysis of good running technique, but it's the only one I've tried, and everything else seems to fall into place when I do that. Granted this is just my own naive, proprioceptive impression--only a veteran runner would be able to judge if I'm really doing it right. But it definitely feels good.
Thanks again fellas.
I've been in superb aerobic condition before, while traveling through Africa, the Middle East and Europe on bicycle for two years, so I now know almost immediately when I'm getting out of the aerobic zone and building up lactic acid (if I remember my college biology correctly). That's basically what I mean by getting winded. It's a pace I can't sustain for very long. A friend gave me his old HR monitor last fall, and it simply confirmed what I already knew. According to the Mayo Clinic Max Heart Rate formula (which is higher than the Maf method) I consistently run and row in the proper aerobic range without thinking about it. The minute I exert beyond it, I know.
I'm also dubious about whether I'm ready to up the speed much at this point. Last November I jumped from five to ten miles and got a tiny stress fracture in my left foot. It didn't hurt too much, but it's only been since the beginning of March that it's been feeling completely fine again. So I'm building up more slowly this time. I stayed in the 2-3 mile range over the winter, more or less 3x a week, and then beginning in March, when all residual aching disappeared, began working my way up again. Yesterday I tried seven miles, but I started to feel it a bit in my metatarsals, and so ended up walking the last two miles in order not to risk re-injury. Today my feet feel fine, so I think I'll stay in the five-mile range for at least another few weeks. It's frustrating, but at my age (50), I'm beginning to learn patience. I'm almost a year into this latest chapter of the BFR experiment, although I have run barefoot before, in the late 80s, and have run shod before, for about two years at the turn of this century. During this last period I ran five miles 3x a week without any problems. Plus, I've been a barefooter by preference for most of my adult life, so I feel like my feet are in reasonable condition, but obviously they weren't ready for 10 miles back in November. It hasn't helped that I started out about 40-50 pounds overweight. I've already lost 25 pounds, and continue to lose about 2-3 pounds a month now that I've reestablished a good exercise regimen. And a lighter load will only help with the running. The virtuous cycle has been established.
I also used to be pretty fast, did well in the 400 and 800 the one year I went out for track, and played safety in football, so as Nick says, it would be great to feel my legs running with speed again. But I know sprinting puts even more stress on the foot, so I'm going to hold off on that until I can consistently run seven to ten miles in the seven-to-eight-minute-mile range.
Thanks Phil for your advice on interval training. Contemplating different running routines is new to me. Before I just ran a certain distance at whatever pace felt good and that was it. I did recently start doing hills a few weeks ago, and that feels pretty good, so I've been wondering about interval training too. It would be great to get some wind-sprints in once in a while too, but that's a ways off.
I appreciate B&A's advice for gait analysis, and luckily Johnny will be helping me out with that in a few weeks.
As for the knee-drive tip, it's at the 2:00 minute mark on Dr. Mark's video. Of course, it's just one aspect of his total analysis of good running technique, but it's the only one I've tried, and everything else seems to fall into place when I do that. Granted this is just my own naive, proprioceptive impression--only a veteran runner would be able to judge if I'm really doing it right. But it definitely feels good.
Thanks again fellas.
Spent so much time writing that last comment that a few more comments rolled in in the meantime . . .
Bare lee,
Nice to hear your back ground info. Our perception of our running can indeed be a very tricky and deceptive thing. Because of that reality it is very important/imperative that we fine tune and build a very accurate perception of what we are doing and maintaining throughout our running. That is why I think it is necessity to keep form a priority as we run to the appropriate levels.
Nice to hear your back ground info. Our perception of our running can indeed be a very tricky and deceptive thing. Because of that reality it is very important/imperative that we fine tune and build a very accurate perception of what we are doing and maintaining throughout our running. That is why I think it is necessity to keep form a priority as we run to the appropriate levels.
Thanks B&A, I think I started out agnostic about good form at the beginning of this thread, but you and others are winning me over to the importance of proper technique. As I've said above, I've seen it work in other athletic areas, so it makes sense that it would be important to running too, and obviously the pros shave off valuable time with improved technique. I still find it funny or ironic, however, that there is so much diversity of opinion as to what proper technique is in running. The fact that you disagree with Dr. Mark for example.
Bare lee,
The reason for the difference is our perception. We each have the ability to think and draw our on conclusions which is great but we can be either right or wrong. There is no manual that has th absolute answers. Forces each of us to think for ourselves or be left a victum.
The reason for the difference is our perception. We each have the ability to think and draw our on conclusions which is great but we can be either right or wrong. There is no manual that has th absolute answers. Forces each of us to think for ourselves or be left a victum.
Bare lee,
Btw, I don't disagree with everything that he says or believes. I think it is great that he is sharing info that he is passionate about that has a positive effect for everyone regardless of whether everything he says and does is correct/proper as NATURE intends it.
Btw, I don't disagree with everything that he says or believes. I think it is great that he is sharing info that he is passionate about that has a positive effect for everyone regardless of whether everything he says and does is correct/proper as NATURE intends it.
So are you advocating the experiment and see what works approach? Or do you think there is a definite range of techniques that are right, and others that are definitely wrong?
Thru both thought and experimentation I have discover what I believe to be proper and improper and I practice accordingly. I would certainly advocate that same approach. You could also find a coach to help assist you in that process that would speed up the process and possible risk of injury that is present with trial and error approach only
NickW
Guest
B&A, I think Dr Mark talks more about using the bodies natural elasticity to drive the knee forward instead of using the muscle to drive the knee forward. In the second video I listed he goes into great detail about this and opening the hips more. I do agree with the idea that we have to try different approaches to find what works for the individual because everyone is different. For me, I really like Dr Marks ideas and they seem to be really agreeing with my body and helping heal my heels. Someone else, like you, may not like his ideas or agree with them. That's ok, everyone is allowed there own opinion on what works for them. I've had a lot of injuries and have tried numerous running styles. For me, this seems to be working and feels much smoother.
Indeed experience rules in my opinion. As one is working his her way thru the experimentation process there is bound to be some things that seem appropriate now but won't be as one becomes more enlightened in the future.
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