The Running Form Thread

To think running over a certain distance is 'stressful' and weakens the body is silly.
Well, according to practicing scientists, it's physiological fact (that's where recovery, nutrition, quality over quantity, age adjustments, etc., come in--Ryan Hall, for example, is running faster now by training faster and less, allowing more time for recovery). But science left this otherwise delightful discussion a few pages ago, no? Have you met Barefoot & Agile? You two seem like you would have a lot in common . . .

I must say, it's becoming a bit disappointing to have ordered your recommended pills now that your anti-science bias is coming through more clearly :( . Oh well. Just in case there's something to the Hammer capsules, how often do you recommend taking them?
 
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Every human is born to run. Sounds cliche I know. Of course, some are faster than others, who cares. But if we run 'correctly, it is very healing. To think running over a certain distance is 'stressful' and weakens the body is silly. Of course there are 'stressors'. But the benefits far outweigh the costs. Again, if done 'correctly'.

I think this is an important discussion. Yes, the way many Americans traditionally run is possibly harmful. Poor technique, poor state of mind and 'over training' is harmful. But if we run in a way which is more joyful, relaxed, fun and playful versus running to lose weight, train or to work out. Then running is incredibly healing physically, mentally and spiritually.
Damian, one thing I would like to point out is that Lee does run, it's the distance that he's saying he might not be built for. I may agree that we humans are born to run, but I firmly believe that there are different types of runners, ie the long distance runner, the mid distance, and then the super fast sprinters. I believe each of those types of runners had very specific roles way back in early human history and helped human survival. Just a theory on my part though.
 
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Damian, one thing I would like to point out is that Lee does run, it's the distance that he's saying he might not be built for. I may agree that we humans are born to run, but I firmly believe that there are different types of runners, ie the long distance runner, the mid distance, and then the super fast sprinters. I believe each of those types of runners had very specific roles way back in early human history and helped human survival. Just a theory on my part though.
Right. Running is high impact, so if you weigh less, you should be able to run more, because the overall wear and tear will be less. But there is also physiological stress in addition to biomechanical stress. That's why the trend now for elite distance runners is to lower their volume and focus more on the quality of the training runs. Some of the Kenyans, for example, run a lot less than the traditional 100-120 mpw, but 35-40% of their training is done at close to race pace. OK, I'm not elite, I'm middle-aged, and I weigh 15-20 pounds more than I should, even when you account for the fact that I'm a lot stronger than those young, speedy, skinny guys. So it seems quite obvious that my expectations for how far or much I can run before I overstress my animal should be less. No one said anything about not running.
 
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I don't mean to sound bias, I am just very passionate about what I do. I trust my own reality over science any day. I also like to think outside the box and get others to do the same. It is beneficial to question what we have been told, whether it is running or life in general.

We are told running is high impact. Is this really true?
We are told we should lose weight to be healthier or run 'better'. Is this true?

My beliefs from my own life experiences is that we each have the ability to create our own future and reality. If you believe you cannot run long distances because it is harmful, well then it will be. I believe on the other hand that we can shape our world. If your dream is to be able to run ultras, it takes a ton of effort and practice but you can do it. Have you ever been to an ultra? Every time I am amazed by the people there. 70 year men and woman running 100 miles. Very 'over weight' runners finishing and beating 'skinny' guys. Moms kicking butt. It is incredibly inspiring and gets you to think that maybe there is more to us then we believe possible.

True, losing weight may make running 'easier' and help reduce injuries. But so can practicing technique. If weight truly is an issue, maybe this needs to be addressed first. Lets see what we can do about that.

And, 'Tissue Rejuvenator' works for many people and is scientifically proven to be beneficial. If you have a current injury, I recommend taking 4-8 a day. I recommend taking on a empty stomach but this is not essential. The enzymes will help speed up the healing process. For maintenace, I recommend 2 a day. Let me know after a couple days if you are feeling any different.
 
I don't mean to sound bias, I am just very passionate about what I do.
That's always the way to go in life.
I trust my own reality over science any day.
Not much basis for dialogue here if you're unwilling to engage in intersubjective reality.
We are told running is high impact. Is this really true?
Yes, more than one's body weight on each step even at sluggish paces.
We are told we should lose weight to be healthier or run 'better'. Is this true?
Elite runners tend to be skinny guys and girls in the prime of life, they run better.
My beliefs from my own life experiences is that we each have the ability to create our own future and reality. If you believe you cannot run long distances because it is harmful, well then it will be. I believe on the other hand that we can shape our world. If your dream is to be able to run ultras, it takes a ton of effort and practice but you can do it. Have you ever been to an ultra? Every time I am amazed by the people there. 70 year men and woman running 100 miles. Very 'over weight' runners finishing and beating 'skinny' guys. Moms kicking butt. It is incredibly inspiring and gets you to think that maybe there is more to us then we believe possible.
You're missing the point completely.
True, losing weight may make running 'easier' and help reduce injuries. But so can practicing technique. If weight truly is an issue, maybe this needs to be addressed first. Lets see what we can do about that.
Once again, your lack of reading comprehension is taking all the fun out of this :( .
And, 'Tissue Rejuvenator' works for many people and is scientifically proven to be beneficial. If you have a current injury, I recommend taking 4-8 a day. I recommend taking on a empty stomach but this is not essential. The enzymes will help speed up the healing process. For maintenace, I recommend 2 a day. Let me know after a couple days if you are feeling any different.
Thanks for the rec. It should be arriving soon.
 
Bare Lee,
I'm just asking you to think outside of the box. High impact is a relative, subjective term. You cannot quantify the word 'high' so therefore, in my opinion, running is not high impact. If I believed running was high impact, I would get injured. It's all state of mind. Get it? We cannot escape reality ( of course running produces impact), but to call it high impact or stressful is not beneficial to anyone.

Elite runners are fit and in shape. Skinny is subjective. Go to an ultra, many of the top runners are kinda beefy. You are correct, we cannot escape the reality that running produces force on our bodies. But we can reduce this force by running more efficiently.

By confining yourself to a box (science), the ability to grow, adapt and learn is reduced. The #1 reason I am a 'good' runner who has been injury free for 8 years is this. I believe it is possible. It is the reality I created. If you need science for 'proof', then read scientific journals and talk to scientists. I'm a waste of your time.
 
High impact is a relative, subjective term.

Right, running is high impact relative to swimming or cycling, for example. That is all I'm saying. I'm not speaking in subjective terms like, Ouch, this hurts, it's high impact!

Elite runners are fit and in shape. Skinny is subjective.
Sorry, 'skinny' was a bad choice of words. I meant it in an admiring sense, but it could easily be taken as a put-down, I agree.
Go to an ultra, many of the top runners are kinda beefy. You are correct, we cannot escape the reality that running produces force on our bodies. But we can reduce this force by running more efficiently.
Agreed. Note we were talking, or at least I was talking, about long-term fitness goals and various training protocols' sustainability, not one-off events like an ultra. Abide and I were suggesting that high weekly mileages or regular high-mileage runs may not be advisable for certain kinds of runners. That is all.

Just for the record, I cycled from the North Cape in Norway to the Cape of Good Hope in South Africa and back again, although I flew over the Sahara and parts of Central Africa, about 24,000 miles total. I've also done other stuff like that, so I have some familiarity with adventure. Hopefully that background info will allow us to cut to the chase in any future interactions.

By confining yourself to a box (science), the ability to grow, adapt and learn is reduced.
You have a very limited idea of what science is, and seem to subscribe to a rationalist / irrationalist dichotomy. I prefer a more holistic approach to life, learning, and art.
The #1 reason I am a 'good' runner who has been injury free for 8 years is this. I believe it is possible. It is the reality I created.
I thought Chi-running is what helped you out of the injury rut, and it claims to be scientific, no?
If you need science for 'proof', then read scientific journals and talk to scientists. I'm a waste of your time.
Yes, quite possibly. I certainly do feel a bit trapped by having gotten into this exchange. Please excuse me if I butt out for the time being, but thanks for the rec and the endorsement of active recovery. I do value your experience. I just have to find a good way of commenting in BRS forums without feeling responsible for responding to all the ensuing comments. So much of it ends up with people talking past each other because they have fundamentally different assumptions. With Abide on the other hand, I've picked up some useful ideas because we seem to have a similar outlook, so it's time well-spent.
 
As an observer, i like this exchange between Damian and Lee. On one hand, I understand exactly what Damian is saying; his experiences are very similar to my own. On the other hand, I get Lee's perspective. The scientific method (NOT always the results of scientific inquiry) is the lens through which I see the world.

Maybe I've spent far too long fraternizing with hippie barefoot runners, but I seem to unconsciously reframe everything most things Damian says into dialogue that makes sense to my skeptical, science brain.
 
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Thanks Jason for putting the conversation into perspective. I agree with you. Both of us have some good points, Lee probably has more.

Lee, I think we agree more than you imagine. I'm just trying to get folks to think differently and maybe play a little devils advocate. I myself rely and need science and proof to believe something works. Then once I believe, it really works for me. Chi Running is what works for me. It has allowed me to do the things I love in life. And the fact I believe that it works for me, deepens the benefits even greater.

As a coach and runner, I think many runners run and train too much. I myself run 2-4 days a week when I want to. The idea that runners need to run farther, faster and more often is not very beneficial. It's all about how much enjoyment we get from running and how much we learn and grow from doing it. For performance and maximum health benefits, it probably is wise to run 2-5 days a week, maybe 50 mpw max. But I don't believe that running ultras, high mileage, barefoot or speed workouts is harmful. It 'stresses' our body for sure. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.

Bottom line: Lets just get out and run!
 
Sorry, I don't get Jason and Damian's points (in these last two comments). I (and Abide) started out making a simple suggestion, then Damian introduced all these extraneous points, I tried to get it back to the original point, and then we all end up agreeing with each other. A complete waste of time in my opinion, but I'm glad everyone seems to agree with each other in the end.

Yes, it's truly about doing what we enjoy, so long as some kind of base level of fitness and health are attained and sustained. I guess whenever someone mentions science or studies or research, the image of a fuddy duddy in a lab coat immediately comes to mind for some people. I don't enjoy simplistic dichotomies at all, like dry scientist versus fun-loving hippie, and become annoyed when I try to manage these conversations away from them. For me, there's an art and science to everything we do, and there's no need to choose one side or the other. But oftentimes, if someone says A, another feels compelled to say not A; B, without even bothering to listen to the point of A. Just a complete waste of time.

At first, I began participating in these forums, last spring or so, because all this was new to me--I had been a 'just run' sort of runner--and I wanted know what I thought of some of the seemingly absurd notions bouncing around in barefoot circles, like running slow to run fast (Maf method), maintaining an exact cadence no matter what the pace, using gravity to go forward, actively lifting one's feet, and so on. I've lumped these together as the rules-based approaches. I've since learned that few if anyone in elite running circles entertain these notions, nor does current research support them, which comes as a relief. But, as Jason has noted, some of them may be useful as coaching cues, or as remedies to over-training, or a way to help newbie runners ease into things, and so on. Fair enough.

In contrast, I've found what may be called the 'just run' approach, or perhaps we could call it 'natural running' except that phrase has also been adopted for a more narrow description of non-heel-striking running. In this approach, there is perhaps less conscious manipulation according to a rigid set of percepts, one tries to adhere more to the natural capabilities of the human body, and one draws more on empirical observation and established science than idea-driven methods and novel interpretations of scientific principles. I'm happy a like-minded runner like Abide also enjoys sites like Magness's and Kanute's and their endorsement of this more naturalistic approach. I like talking to and learning from those kinds of people about running and fitness stuff. Frankly, Damian seems to have trouble staying on topic, doesn't respond to actual questions where his experience might be of some use, and has poor reading comprehension. So I don't really enjoy the exchanges. Yah, I get the part about overcoming challenges, living your dreams, testing the limits, creating your own reality, etc., and have done a fair amount of that sort of thing in the past myself, but that wasn't the point of the body-type question. Maybe in a different context, like shooting the shit over beer, it would be more fun. I know this is an internet forum and we write our responses hastily, often when we should be doing something else, but if the conversations about technique or training get too flabby I stop enjoying them and lose interest.

Anyway, after six months of looking into this stuff, I know more or less all I need to know now. I will continue to enjoy conversations in which details and refinements are discussed, like body type with respect to running protocols, or the relative merits of engaging the 'core', and methods for doing so, so long as they stay relatively focused, but I think I will do my best to avoid any discussion of the meta issues involved in the rules-based approaches from now on.

Mostly, I'm thinking about my run later today, hoping my knee continues to feel good as I try to up the mileage slightly to 3-4 miles or so. Because I need to run, and these baby runs just aren't doing it for me. My sense is that I'm another 2-3 weeks out before I can begin to push it a bit. Both Jason and Damian's endorsement of active recovery has been very useful to me, and hopefully Damian's pills will further the process along, so for that, I'm grateful to have participated in this conversation.
 
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I've also been intrigued by the idea of 'engaging the core' while running, as my main form manipulation these days is to try to sink my hips down just a bit. Unfortunately my knee-tweak has me running very short distances so I'm not able to experiment as much as I would like.

What do you mean sinking the hips? Like forcing a posterior pelvic tilt?

Also how do you engage the core yet relax at the same time?

Edit: I'm not directly asking you Lee but everyone, it seems like the two are contradictory.
 
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What do you mean sinking the hips? Like forcing a posterior pelvic tilt?

Also how do you engage the core yet relax at the same time?

Edit: I'm not directly asking you Lee but everyone, it seems like the two are contradictory.
I think it's the same as consciously bending one's knees, as is often recommended, it's just that for me it seems to work better if I think of it in terms of hips. I'm not consciously trying to tilt the pelvis, just lower my COM a hair. It feels a bit smoother and more stable, but I have no idea if it's actually resulting in any benefit. It's just my sense of it. I believe my overall posture is already pretty good, and I know my foot landing is fine, so it's really about the only thing I'm trying to work on right now, mostly as a way to take a little bit of the pressure off the knees, just in case this had something to do with my recent knee-tweak, but also because it just feels right, and worth experimenting with. But I'm also running at a slow pace right now, so it might not be a concern once I can get back in the 8-9mm pace range again. I always feel plodding when I run above 10mm pace.

As for engaging the core, I haven't tried it yet. I mentioned it in reference to, and as an example of, a question I threw Damian's way that could've been productively engaged, but never was. I would still like to know what is meant by it, but since Jason has said he doesn't think it matters much, I'm not going to pursue it independently. It's a bit lazy, but I tend to find Jason a reliable filter for most of this stuff. He has vastly more experience and brings a similar mind-set to the issues involved. But if someone wants to respond, I'd be interested in hearing about it. I'm always open to new ideas, although my overwrought response just above may give the opposite impression.
 
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Lee, no worries.
Glad to hear you are playing around with your technique. Wish I was there in person to hear and see what you are trying. It's hard to visualize this way, or maybe it's my poor reading and comprehension skills ;) I think 'sinking the hips' is overall a good thing. In Chi Running, we teach a grounding stance which is probably what you are doing. But we focus more on 'soft knees' versus sinking the hips. Not to say this is better.

This is what I recommend trying:

For posture:
1. Think long spine. This can help open up the lungs.
2. Zipper up the lower abs from the pelvic floor to the belly button. You can also think of gently sucking in your belly button. The lower the better. Think 30% engagement. I also teach a floor exercise where you lay on your back with your knees bent. You'll most likely have a natural bend in your lower (lumbar) spine. Gently press the lower back in the floor. We are looking for your lower ab muscles to do the work, NOT the glutes. It is those muscles we want to use and engage slightly when we run. They help stabilize the hips and knees.

Once you have those muscles engaged, think soft knees or 'sink the hips'. The engagement needs to happen as well as the relaxation to protect the knees. If you just 'sink the hips', and relax and not engage, instability may occur. We need a balance of the two.

Let me know how that goes.
 
You know I have questioned the whole bending the knees advice. I have always thought that excessive (meaning anything more than normal) bending would lead to greater energy expediture via greater muscular contraction and should be avoided. I also think that it may have a slowing effect on cadence as the energy from tendon recoil gets dampened. I have nothing to back up my observations only my experience. But logically if you allow your COM to drop down further you have to lift it back up before your next footfall. This seems like it would end up causing your cadence to drop as you need your foot on the ground longer to actively push your COM back up a greater distance.
 
You know I have questioned the whole bending the knees advice. I have always thought that excessive (meaning anything more than normal) bending would lead to greater energy expediture via greater muscular contraction and should be avoided. I also think that it may have a slowing effect on cadence as the energy from tendon recoil gets dampened. I have nothing to back up my observations only my experience. But logically if you allow your COM to drop down further you have to lift it back up before your next footfall. This seems like it would end up causing your cadence to drop as you need your foot on the ground longer to actively push your COM back up a greater distance.
Abide, I totally agree! But it seems to be working for Lee, maybe. When I do it, it requires my quads to do much more work and they get fatigued quicker. I think it puts more strain on my knees as well. Instead, I engage my 'core' and this absorbs the impact. Instead of a sinking feeling or thoughts when I run, I like to think of lifting. I don't like my energy 'sinking'. I am more likely to get tired. Personally, I don't think of 'sinking the hips' or even softening the knees. I think of posture.
 
For posture:
1. Think long spine. This can help open up the lungs.
2. Zipper up the lower abs from the pelvic floor to the belly button. You can also think of gently sucking in your belly button. The lower the better. Think 30% engagement. I also teach a floor exercise where you lay on your back with your knees bent. You'll most likely have a natural bend in your lower (lumbar) spine. Gently press the lower back in the floor. We are looking for your lower ab muscles to do the work, NOT the glutes. It is those muscles we want to use and engage slightly when we run. They help stabilize the hips and knees.

When I run I belive I have a pretty defined anterior tilted pelvis do you mean that I should be actively trying to tilt it more neutral?
 
Abide, I totally agree! But it seems to be working for Lee, maybe. When I do it, it requires my quads to do much more work and they get fatigued quicker. I think it puts more strain on my knees as well. Instead, I engage my 'core' and this absorbs the impact. Instead of a sinking feeling or thoughts when I run, I like to think of lifting. I don't like my energy 'sinking'. I am more likely to get tired. Personally, I don't think of 'sinking the hips' or even softening the knees. I think of posture.

Yeah two of the cues that I have found really useful are running tall and a quick turnover. I am still tinkering with which muscle I should pull with but I kind of like switching as Jason has recommended before. It feels fast and easy to pull with the hamstrings, but I feel much more powerful when using the quads.
 
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When I run I belive I have a pretty defined anterior tilted pelvis do you mean that I should be actively trying to tilt it more neutral?
Yes. Chi Running we teach a neutral, level pelvis. Unfortunately, many people go too far and go posterior.

The keys are to level the pelvis and NOT use your glutes. It has to come from the lower abs (transverse abdominus). Then, the hardest thing is to practice it while running. You'll notice you will run lighter. Remember, more isn't better. You are shooting for 30% engagement but engaging it the entire run. Takes practice.

I use to have pretty bad anterior pelvic tilt. Correcting it with this exercise, patience and practice is possibly the #1 CR exercise that has helped my knees. It's that important, to me at least. It is now habit for me to have a neutral pelvis. It took a while though.
 
Yeah two of the cues that I have found really useful are running tall and a quick turnover. I am still tinkering with which muscle I should pull with but I kind of like switching as Jason has recommended before. It feels fast and easy to pull with the hamstrings, but I feel much more powerful when using the quads.
Not the glutes? I'm interested in what you find. Currently, I don't teach or believe actively/conciously pulling with any muscles is beneficial. This may change though...
 
Not the glutes? I'm interested in what you find. Currently, I don't teach or believe actively/conciously pulling with any muscles is beneficial. This may change though...

Sorry I should have clarified generically by hamstrings I mean more of a posterior chain pull vs. a quad dominated anterior chain pull. I have been tinkering with both specifically with up/down hill running. It works best for me to use the A pull when running uphill and the posterior chain gets a little break and ends up working more during the push off/up phase but less on the lifting motion. That could be why it feels more powerful. Running downhill I prefer to use a P pull as it seems a bit faster since I don't have to lift my foot as high going down.

This kind of works the same on flat too specifically when sprinting.