Optimal strength training for runners
- Thread starter Abide
- Start date
Thanks Sid. Actually, I've been lax about the overhead presses. I think the bench press is the main culprit, and from what I understand, overhead presses might alleviate things a bit if my diagnosis is correct and the problem is an overdeveloped anterior deltoid and tight pec muscles. The overhead press should develop the top and posterior deltoids more. But more importantly, putting more emphasis on the upper body pulls, like pulldowns and rows, should help rebalance things a bit. Sitting slouched in my chair all day also brings the shoulders too far forward for long periods of time. Something like a posture brace might help with that (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CMV3BXI/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1).
But the value of that video for me is that he's doing things with a neutral grip. I think that will be the second key, if impingement is part of the problem too.
Although my left shoulder soreness has diminished simply by backing off the bench press a bit and adopting a narrower grip, I think for the next few weeks I'm going to try to do everything with neutral or supine grip, nothing prone grip with a barbell.
If the soreness disappears completely, I'll then start adding in some of my old barbell lifts and see which ones aggravate and which are OK. I might end up doing something like limiting my barbell OH and Bench Presses to just once every three or four weeks, for my 1RMs, and then dumbbell presses the rest of the time. The main thing is break things down and then control for variables as I reintroduce them.
Thanks again Sid, but like I said, I don't think overhead pressing is the culprit. It's the barbell bench press, which is my most advanced lift, according to ExRx.net's strength standards. No biggie, I'll just do neutral grip dumbbell bench presses, and/or reduced weight with the barbell. It's not like I'm going to enter a powerlifting competition.
Finally did the front squat for the first time yesterday. Tried cross-armed grip and clean grip. The problem is my rack posts on my bench have exactly the same spacing as I need for the clean grip, so I had to put the bar a little to one side before de-racking it. I'm practicing the front squat and clean grip so I can get a better feel for the last phase of the power clean. I practiced the power clean with both dumbbells and barbell. The dumbbells felt awkward and the barbell didn't seem to aggravate my shoulder, so I guess I stick with the latter. Man, I love power cleans, but they really tire you out. It's a great way to finish up the lifting week, together with some more rowing, pulldowns, and arm work.
Yep, this.
Basically, now I have two Back days, one paired with Deadlifts (Mon) and one with Power Cleans (Fri), and one Chest & Shoulders day, paired with Squats (Wed). Or two Pull days bookending one weekly Push day.
I like that article's concept that a row weight should be equivalent to a bench press weight, although I wonder if that's exactly true in practice. In any case, my row is probably a good 20 percent weaker than my bench. Same with the Chin-up. So hopefully going at it twice a week for a while will bring those exercises up. It would be really cool to have relatively strong back.
Of course, I used to be able to bench about 10% more 10 years ago, with no problem, so this recent problem of soreness might simply be age. Still, there were times last year when I could lift for months at a time without any problem, so I'm hopeful that I can get this thing figured out.
I've also been stretching out my upper body more. I'm such a big advocate of stretching out the lower body, it's ironic how neglectful I have been of the upper body. This alone might be the cure, who knows?
Well, stretched out my shoulders and pecs real good yesterday, and today there's almost no soreness, so maybe I just need to stretch more! Still, I'll try to focus on my back a bit more in case there's an imbalance there, and will try to do the presses exclusively with neutral grip for a few weeks to see if that helps. I've added a five-day version to my routine, as a back-up in case I don't have enough time to do the full three-day workouts. The five-day workouts start with one of the three-day workout's primary bottom lifts (deadlift, squat, power clean) or one of the middle/top 'push' or 'pull' combos (bench/press, or rows/pulldowns), and then continue on to their respective secondary, tertiary, and quadrary lifts if there's time.
I understand that many people split up their workouts over the week. Does any one ever just have a rotating schedule of 3-4 groups of exercises? I understand that one might not want to schedule leg day to close to long run, but otherwise why not just rotate?
Sid those articles are hurting my head to read. However I have had the same issue here, bench press and dips bother my shoulders but I have never had any pain due to presses. I do pack my bench and pull ups a bit but I don't for the press and DL. I think that may be why a close grip works a little better as it does tighten that area up some?
That's kind of what I am doing now just rotating 2 workouts. Most people tend to organize by week not by excercise and with a running plan its sometimes easier for me to schedule it in with work/home life. It really doesn't matter though and you would probably get better rotation and consistency that way.
That's kind of what I am doing now just rotating 2 workouts. Most people tend to organize by week not by excercise and with a running plan its sometimes easier for me to schedule it in with work/home life. It really doesn't matter though and you would probably get better rotation and consistency that way.
Yah, there are 5-10 basic approaches it seems: full body; upper/lower body splits; ME/DE; set/rep cycles; Pus/Pull; body part; power/strength/hypertrophy alternations; Super-sets; you name it.
You just gotta find out which one works best for you. Like Abide says, it probably doesn't really matter, unless you have specific performance goals, like a strongman, powerlifting, or bodybuilding competition.
I always find myself thinking in terms of a weekly routine, alternating running with lifting, three times a week each, with one day of rest. For lifting, I try to get in all six force/direction pairings--Push Down/Out/Up, and Pull Up/In/Down--plus power cleans. On the big lifts I work up to a 1-2RM, then reduce by feel, on the smaller lifts I just do 2-4 straight sets. For running, I try to get in two 40-to-60-minute runs, and one 60-to-120-minute run. Ideally, the two shorter runs would be one tempo and one intervals/hills, but it rarely works out that way. I mostly run aerobic because I'm a lazy shit.
I've tried other ways of doing it, like lifting four days a week, or on a four-week cycle, or for running, doing 5K every day. But they never stick. Over the last year the daily run-commutes, in addition to the mezzo and macro runs, have been something of an innovation, as well as, more recently, basing each ST workout on a lower body lift, and realizing lifting boils down to six basic force/direction pairings.
The one thing about doing the same exercises every time is that you might not be giving yourself enough recovery time if you start to really push it. I wouldn't want to do heavy deadlifts or squats more than once a week, for example.
There seems to be some confusion about the term 'landmine.' Some use it to describe that pivot platform, others for an exercise. For me, I've thought of it as a specific exercise, involving a twisting motion:
I do it like he does it at the beginning of the video, from a waist-high starting position.
But looking into things a bit further, I guess it's called the Russian Twist:
Whatever the name, I consider this a top 'assistance' exercise, like the Overhead Squat, because it attacks an area--in this case the obliques--that the main lifts neglect. You can also really feel it in the lats and a bit in the outside of the deltoid. I do it right after my t-bar rows. A great 1-2 punch for the back.
I agree with Abide that Sid's vid is more like an incline press. I guess it could work for someone who's having issues with an OH press, but like Abide, for me the problem lies in my anterior deltoid and through my pectorals. It's some kind of tightness/soreness/inflammation, caused mostly by the bench press I think. Hopefully Abide's suggestion of a narrower grip will be the long-term solution. I've stopped doing upright rows.
Already getting psyched about my deadlifts later today . . .
Yeah I thought thats a russian twist. The land mine is a recent invention, it replaced the lower corner of a wall in the gym. Although I have to say the barbell does some decent damage to the wall, even brick walls. Maybe thats why they made them.
Did you see these articles. I love how some people can look at things and get the completely opposite idea from them.
http://www.t-nation.com/training/cardio-kills
http://www.athletesheart.org/2012/12/dont-stop-running-yet/
http://canute1.wordpress.com/2014/06/02/cortisol-and-the-stress-response/
http://www.runnersworld.com/health/too-much-running-myth-rises-again
And then I find it funny that everyone recommends HIIT but...
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/dec/15/fitness-tabata-high-intensity-regime
Oh well, do what makes your happy... or low intensity physical activity.
Did you see these articles. I love how some people can look at things and get the completely opposite idea from them.
http://www.t-nation.com/training/cardio-kills
http://www.athletesheart.org/2012/12/dont-stop-running-yet/
http://canute1.wordpress.com/2014/06/02/cortisol-and-the-stress-response/
http://www.runnersworld.com/health/too-much-running-myth-rises-again
And then I find it funny that everyone recommends HIIT but...
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/dec/15/fitness-tabata-high-intensity-regime
Oh well, do what makes your happy... or low intensity physical activity.
Yah, I was hesitant to invest in an overpriced pivot, but even after putting a brick between my bar and the wall, the sheet rock in my garage was getting damaged, so I bought a landmine. I guess I'll call that exercise "Russian Twists" then, since that was the original, pre-landmine name. Whether one does them with a landmine or just bar against wall is irrelevant.
All those health/fitness/nutrition articles make my head hurt. Unless you're willing to educate yourself on physiology and read the respective methodologies of those studies carefully (which Alex Hutchinson shows, can be downright stupid: http://www.runnersworld.com/health/too-much-running-myth-rises-again), it's hard to know who's telling the truth. All I know is that publications live by offering a never-ending series of contradictory facts that keep consumers coming back for more, searching for the truth. Same with all the exercise programs out there, and the endless articles in fitness mags or blogs, or joe-schmoe's exercise videos.
For me, it all comes back to going by feel. Last fall I ran half-marathonish distances before I was really in shape to do it. And I could tell my body didn't like it, and the last miles were often a slog. So in this case, running two hours or more was probably bad for me. And it took me a while to recover, although recovery time improved pretty well over the 3-4 months I was running this way. Still, I'm glad I did it, I'm glad to know I can do it, and I love the adventure and exploration of urban geography involved in a longer run . If I can build back up to those distances more slowly, and perhaps run them less frequently, which is my current intent, I have a hard time believing it's going to be bad for me. Just gotta use common sense and some somatic awareness about what lies within one's limits and current conditioning. I have no doubt that one can run marathons and ultramarathons comfortably, but so many people nowadays do them without being really fit for it, more as a test of their mettle and will, with a 'just finish' mentality. They probably do damage their bodies.
Like one of the commentators of the first article notes, you can do just about any form of exercise badly, or to excess. When I hear about lifters talking about all their injuries, I wonder what the hell they're doing. Don't they learn from their mistakes? It's like chronic running injuries. Speaking of lifting injuries, today my shoulder feels 100% fine, after a great deadlift/row/pulldown session yesterday. I got back up to 305, two one-rep sets, then 3x5x265. I was going to reduce to 225, but I could tell on my last set of 265 that my back was done for the day. It was fatigued, so I moved on to hip hinge swings, just 70 pounds, and did a bunch of reps of those. Just common sense, right? Pushing the deadlifts much more, even at reduced weight, probably would've increased my chance of injury.
Anyway, so I think stretching has helped the left shoulder a lot. The test will be tomorrow when I do my presses.
In general though, I think about one hour of moderate exercise per day is about right for most people. I just have a hard time believing that 30 minutes of walking every day is going to get it done, although walking and hiking are great, no doubt.
And I am going to try to do more sprinting, as suggested in one of those articles. Speedwork once a week, and then tempo pace another time, is probably the proper counterbalance to longer weekend aerobic runs for me. Kind of like starting off a lifting session with the heavy stuff, with longish rest intervals, then moving on to the lighter assistance exercises at higher reps and shorter rest intervals, to get the heart rate up and flush the muscles with blood. Just makes sense to vary intensity, duration, and frequency within and across workouts and fitness modalities.
Haha I never thought about publications in that manner but it seems to hold true. There is always something that works and has been done for a long time but tends to get drowned out by the flashy headlines and silly interpretations.
But after the race over the weekend I realize that running hard does take it's toll on your body. In a way I don't like. It sucks to not be able to lift because my calves are still aching. Should just be common sense. Well I'll go back on sabbatical from racing for a while.
30 minutes a day of easy jogging could technically be a 5k a day? Interesting how that works out.
Yeah good job deiciding to hold off on the extra back off sets. The money lift will be the 305 anyway, the rest are extra if you have the energy and time. I think sometimes it's hard to judge when to back off and in hindsight its probably better to err on the side of caution. Sid asked why DOMS are bad and I think its as simple as if it affects your next workout in a negative way you went too far.
But after the race over the weekend I realize that running hard does take it's toll on your body. In a way I don't like. It sucks to not be able to lift because my calves are still aching. Should just be common sense. Well I'll go back on sabbatical from racing for a while.
30 minutes a day of easy jogging could technically be a 5k a day? Interesting how that works out.
Yeah good job deiciding to hold off on the extra back off sets. The money lift will be the 305 anyway, the rest are extra if you have the energy and time. I think sometimes it's hard to judge when to back off and in hindsight its probably better to err on the side of caution. Sid asked why DOMS are bad and I think its as simple as if it affects your next workout in a negative way you went too far.
I think they typically say it should be 75% of your back squat? I honestly don't know what my numbers are, I haven't back squatted in a long time. I usually use 135 for front squats and I can easily do 10.
Something olympic lifting folks like to do is power clean then front squat to build the patterning for a clean. It may be worth a try if you have 225 for the clean on your radar.
Yah, I figure I either run 5K a day, or an hour every other day, in addition to the one-mile run-commutes, which are 95% easy pace, sometimes just walking, and the weekend long-run, which should be about 90-120 minutes long I think. My left toe feels pretty good now so I'm going to try a run later today for the first time in two weeks. I hate having to take time off. My running's been really sporadic the last six months. Hopefully I can get back to that consistency I had going last year.
Yah, today I feel fine, no real soreness, yet it was a good pump yesterday. Here's what I did:
Bottom: [1] Deadlift, [2] Hip Hinge Swing,
Middle: [1] DB Row, [2] Cable Seated Row,
Top: [1] Supine Pulldown, [2] Straight Arm Pulldown, [3] Face Pull,
Basically did my primary and secondary lifts and my tertiary for the 'top' segment, since the face pulls work the posterior deltoid and one of my left shoulder rehab foci is to strengthen it so it better counterbalances the anterior deltoid. I'm also going to start doing Reverse Flyes in my Friday workout for the same reason.
Yah, here's my Friday "Power Clean" workout:
Bottom: [1] Power Clean, [2] Hang Clean, [3] Front Squat, [4] Power Snatch
Middle: [1] T-Bar Row, [2] Russian Twist, [3] Reverse Fly (strap), [4] Pike (strap)
Top: [1] Neutral Grip Pulldown, [2] Rope Pushdown, [3] Biceps Curls (BB/EZ-bar), [4] Bench Pullover.
I'm going to try to get better about giving myself a full hour for each workout, as I've become re-convinced that the assistance exercises add a lot of benefit. Basically I do the primary exercises with close to max effort, after warm-up, and then the assistance exercises at something like 80% effort and just 2-3 sets.
And yes, a 225 power clean is a definite goal. I'm hoping the front squats will help me with both the clean grip and also getting used to getting under the bar. I'm still pulling it up in the second, "jump" phase with my back too erect. In general, I'm really please with the current organization:
Monday
Bottom: [1] Deadlift, [2] Hip Hinge Swing, [3] Hip Thrust, [4] Loaded Carry/Tipping Bird
Middle: [1] DB Row, [2] Cable Seated Row, [3] Renegade Row, [4] DB Woodchopper
Top: [1] Supine Pulldown, [2] Straight Arm Pulldown, [3] Face Pull, [4] Rope Twist
Wednesday
Bottom: [1] Squat, [2] Overhead Squat, [3] Good Morning, [4] Lunge
Middle: [1] Bench Press (DB/BB), [2] Dips, [3] Crossover Fly (strap), [4] Ab Fallout (strap)
Top: [1] Overhead Press (DB/BB), [2] Shoulder Swing, [3] Front/Side Raises, [4] Shrugs
Friday
Bottom: [1] Power Clean, [2] Hang Clean, [3] Front Squat, [4] Power Snatch
Middle: [1] T-Bar Row, [2] Landmine Twist, [3] Reverse Fly (strap), [4] Pike (strap)
Top: [1] Neutral Grip Pulldown, [2] Rope Pushdown, [3] Biceps Curls (BB/EZ-bar), [4] Bench Pullover
The middle and top segments easily detach to the following day if I'm short on time, so I think I've achieved a pretty doable plan that has enough flexibility built in that I can get in all the main lifts once a week no matter what.
Makes perfect sense to me.
No, not at all. The last thing I want as a runner is useless, watery mass. A nice, lean body weight of 190-200 is still the goal, however unrealistic is may seem at times.
In each of my three weekly workouts, I have chosen four exercises of declining importance for each body area--bottom, middle, top--that attack that area in slightly different ways. There's the primary exercise, which is the one that uses the most muscle mass, and/or is most important to me. But then the secondary, tertiary, and quadrary exercises attack that same area in ways the primary exercises misses. At higher reps, lower intensity, and with shorter rest intervals, these exercises don't really add on that much time, but I feel like the 'pump' or blood flow from the less anaerobic exercises is almost therapeutic after the big lifting, and by attacking different angles and movements around the main exercises, these exercise may increase the rate of progress in the big lifts, since I don't feel up for doing a main lift more than once a week. Still, it will be rare for me to get through all of the exercises in each workout. If I can get to the tertiary exercise of each body area a fair amount of the time, that will be great. But more realistically, I'll be happy if I can get in at least the primary and secondary exercises most days. Also, I'm never going to do any exercise much more than 5-8 reps per set, and never to failure, so it's not a hypertrophy protocol, as I understand it.
So I'm sort of taking up your suggestion not to take Rippetoe's Starting Strength program too literally. My basic orientation is to focus on the basic lifts, yes, but a couple of assistance lifts can be useful for an intermediate lifter like me I think.
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