NickW
Guest
Probably just a difference in interpretation of his word choice. No biggie really
Optimal strength training for runners
- Thread starter Abide
- Start date
Still going strong with my minimalist weight training. I like the daily aspect. It's much easier to maintain. I like how I can commit to one exercise, without putting less than ideal effort into subsequent ones.
I also like that I'm not so sore the next day, such that I bail on running/swimming.
If I get really ambitious and if DOMS permits, I might even do one exercise in the morning and one in the afternoon!
I'm getting excited enough that I'm eyeballing some 175lb Powerblock dumbbells. (Maybe if I keep consistent for a few months, and really save up!)
I also like that I'm not so sore the next day, such that I bail on running/swimming.
If I get really ambitious and if DOMS permits, I might even do one exercise in the morning and one in the afternoon!
I'm getting excited enough that I'm eyeballing some 175lb Powerblock dumbbells. (Maybe if I keep consistent for a few months, and really save up!)
Great to hear you're getting into it!
I've done the one lift workout from time to time, but more of a "one body area" than a "one lift" routine. It's easy mentally to just focus on one thing, and physically, you've got a lot of time to recover, especially if you do each body area once a week like I was doing, because I tend to divide up the body into six force/direction zones, so that's six workouts per week. I think Dan John claims ownership of this scheme (http://www.t-nation.com/free_online...aining_performance/the_one_lift_a_day_program), but any meathead can come up with it, including us.
Another nice thing about it is if you miss a day, you can simply double up lifts the next day, so your schedule doesn't get out of whack. Conversely, if you're doing 2-3 main lifts per workout, 2-3 times per week, you can always spread them out onto separate days, one lift per day, if you find your time limited on the scheduled workout day. However, it can also be mentally challenging to lift every day. After a while I start thinking "not again!" at the beginning of the workout, after too many consecutive days.
Right now I'm still trying to hit most body areas twice a week, on the theory that I'll make more progress, given my current level, with a little more volume. Something like:
Monday
Squats
Bench
Pulldowns
Wednesday
Deadlift, Good Morning/Tipping Bird, Hip Hinge Swing, Loaded Carry
Dips
Presses, Raises, Shrug
Friday
Power Clean
Rows & Landmine
Arms
And if I only have time for one lift because time is short, I can always spread things out:
Mon
Squats
Tues
Bench, Dips
Wed
Deadlift, Good Morning/Tipping Bird, Hip Hinge Swing, Loaded Carry
Thurs
Presses, Raises, Shrug
Friday
Power Clean (& Pulldowns or Arms)
Sat
Rows (& Pulldowns or Arms)
Well, I tried hitting most of the major lifts yesterday, at light weights, for two sets each. I dunno. I think for the time being I'll stick to the plan to hit each "power lift"--squat, deadlift, bench--heavy once a week, and maximum two or three of the seven "main" lifts (bench, squat, press, deadlift, rows, pulldowns, power clean) per workout.
My left shoulder's been pretty good lately. I think it's been my de-emphasizing the bench and bring the presses up to speed. Maybe getting back to the dips also helps.
I still have trouble understanding the ladder concept. I guess the drop-set habit is too ingrained. I guess I just need to give the ladders a try but it's hard to see why you wouldn't to do more reps when you're freshest, and then decrease. I guess I can't make the leap of faith to a strict volume approach. I need my 1-2RMs for the heavy lifts, and then drop-sets by feel or 5x3 after that. It ends up being a decent amount of volume, but I know with the 1-2RMs that I've recruited maximal muscle fiber as well.
Anyway, it's interesting how Sid and Abide's approach represent logical extremes, with mine falling somewhere in the middle, and yet we're all happy with our progress.
I think it's just a different style of lifting, not that either is better or worse. You are following something like this:
1 x 90%
1 x 90%
5 x 80%
5 x 80%
5 x 80%
I am doing this
1 x 80%
2 x 80%
3 x 80%
1 x 80%
2 x 80%
3 x 80%
Or if I wanted to try heavier it might look like this:
1 x 90%
2 x 90%
3 x 90%
1 x 90%
2 x 90%
1 x 90%
That's where the big difference comes from, say I tried 5 x 90% I might grind out the last rep on the first set and then have to decrease the next two.
5 x 90%
3 x 90%
2 x 90%
The reps are the same but the difference is I would be able to keep the reps peppy and fast in the ladder, and if I couldn't I would stop a set or call it a day before I added too many reps. If I started out with 5 I would likely be able to finish, however the last rep would probably have been tough and slow and it would definitely affect the following sets.
However this only becomes important once you get in the 90+ range. Until then I think it's more preference.
Also with the 10 rep day idea you don't have to go terribly light. For the Deadlift, bench and press I started at roughly 75-80% 1RM. Glad to hear about your shoulder.
Thanks for the explanation. I didn't mean to say one is better or worse, but I think I would miss the 1-2RM on my big lifts. I think also it would be hard mentally for me to go through more sets, although I know the total reps are the same or less. Still, if you're doing the same or similar exercises everyday and hitting pretty much every body area, I can see the logic of a ladder approach. I just have a hard time taking that leap of faith that a high volume approach would work. Obviously, a lot of people have gotten results, so I'm not dismissing it, and may end up trying it sometime in the future when I start to plateau. Seems like there's at least 4-5 basic strategies and it's probably good to keep switching things around to stimulate further adaptations, right?
Yah, that's the benefit of not having a set amount of reps in mind on the drop sets. You never grind things out, because the previous workout or previous rep has already told you what the limit is. That's the way I've always done it, and it's probably the way I should keep doing it. I'm using the 5x3 as a guide only. I used to feel bad about being so lackadaisical in my approach, but now I see there's a certain wisdom to it.
And I guess I have a hard time believing all these variations really matter for someone like me with modest goals. It comes down to personal preference, right? For some, maybe even grinding is the way to go, provided they have sufficient recovery time. I guess you might be creating a catabolic environment, but if that's the motivation, and if some would get bored and quit lifting if they couldn't grind it out, maybe even that's OK. I dunno. That's an extreme case, but for most of us, anything that leads to consistency, including changing programs from time to time, is probably good enough. The only real rules for most of us are to (1) work the whole body someway or another over a week's time and (2) program in sufficient recovery time for each body area, right?
Anyway, I can hardly wait to blast a 1RM deadlift this afternoon, then I'm going to do squats. My lifting has been all over the place this week. It's kinda fun just doing what I feel like each workout, but next week I'm definitely going to try to reestablish a more disciplined routine.
"There is little, if any, difference, Carpinelli observes, between a one rep maximum and the final rep of a set done with maximum effort. That makes sense, doesn’t it? A maximum effort is a maximum effort."
I don't think this makes sense, no. Because when you're fresh and lifting your max or, in my case, close to your max, you're recruiting maximal muscle fiber. Lifting the last rep of the third set of five reps may be just as difficult, effort-wise, but it's because you're becoming fatigued. The actual number of muscle fibers recruited may be less. It's the same principle, as I understand it, underlying sprints. I think it was Magness who explained it. Even endurance runners should do sprints from time to time, because, in addition to training running economy and form (the faster you go, the more efficient you must become), your body learns to recruit maximal muscle fiber, which can then be used for endurance running, giving one better endurance overall.
In other words, there's a real physiological difference between 1 rep, five reps, and twenty reps. It's not simple arithmetic. A lot of trainers recommend 5 x 3, or 5 x 5 (rep x set) schemes because it's a compromise. It doesn't bust you like a 1RM does, nor does it fatigue you like 20 reps would.
As I've said, my 1RM in practice is something more like 90-95% 1RM. I'm not out there trying to set a PR with eyes bulging and face bright red. It would be too risky, especially without spotters for the bench and squat, and I wouldn't have enough left in the tank to do my 80-85% reps in ensuing sets. I've always done it this way, because that's how I was taught to do it: Ascend the pyramid with warm-up sets, hit the peak with a single or double, then come down at reduced weight, with the last rep of each set being as difficult, or close to as difficult, as the peak single or double. After reading Rippetoe I'm experiementing with following the max set with more of a 5x3 scheme, with fatigue only becoming a factor on the last rep of the last set, instead of every set as I incrementally reduce weight. Not sure if this "sets across" scheme is any better than progressive drop sets, but in any case, Rippetoe explains why the protocol of using 1RM to prime the muscles works:
Yep. Good summary. After the max lift, you can maintain maximal muscle recruitment in one of two ways: 1) you can come down in small increments, maintaining a 1-2 rep max as you begin to fatigue, or 2), you can come down to about 85% and do more reps faster. Rep speed should be faster with higher rep sets. And your max should never stall out; it should still be a solid, steady effort. If not, some of the muscle fiber has dropped out, as Waterbury notes.
The Westside protocol divides up the week into two max effort days and two speed or dynamic days. I try to hit both facets in the same workout/exercise with my Max to drop sets protocol.
And as Waterbury points out, the moment your form or ROM degrades, it's time to stop the set and either reduce weight or move on to something else.
Still, I don't think a 1-2 rep max is the same as 5 reps at 85%1RM. If the goal is strength and not mass, then at some point you have to come close to lifting your max to get stronger, it seems to me. I just have a hard time placing my faith in volume. It's like the MAF method. At some point, if you want to run faster, you have to run faster. Volume at lower intensities will only get you so far.
I'll take this opportunity to clarify my philosophy and goals. I consider myself a beginner. I, like many people, have a tendency to want to push forward and make progress when exercising. I've found that training schedules don't work well for me, because I can ignore my body, reach a goal, then pay for it later, requiring more time to recover.
I value daily activity over intermittent activity. I value longevity over past accomplishments. I'd rather be running and lifting moderately at 90, than run X number of marathons or miles.
I, too, am susceptible to fancy looking charts and training schedules. They seem so logical and well thought out! However, I find that training schedules don't work well for me, because my body has its own rhythm. It does not know that it's supposed to run X miles by week 10, or lift Y% of 1RM according to some famous person's awesome training regimen. Yet, some days my body surprises me, by making progress in leaps and bounds. When I fail to listen to my body, I can overdo it, or miss out on an opportunity.
I don't keep track of numbers anymore. Numbers look nice when arranged in rows and columns, but my body doesn't pay attention to numbers. It doesn't know that if it weighs a few pounds less, that it theoretically should be able to run faster. (If my belt is too tight, I know that I need to lose weight!
) My body doesn't know that, if it ran or swam a certain distance or lifted a specific amount of weight previously, it should be able to do it again. (I really like my Powerblock dumbbells. The increments are marked by color, so that takes the focus off numbers. Each increment is about 10lbs, so I can increase or reduce weight easily.) Frankly, I don't care what I did yesterday either. The most important workout is the one I'm doing next.My strategy is to listen to my body. If it feels like running, I run. If not running, then maybe a swim. Maybe a day off. It told me that it was ready to do weight exercises in the morning and afternoon, so I did that yesterday.
I woke up at 3A today (vs the usual 5A), because my body was sore from exercising more this week. I wasn't sure if I was going to get in a run or lift today. After using my heated massager, it said that it was ready to do my morning weight exercise, so I did. I felt a bit sleepy afterwards and went back to sleep. Woke up at 5:30A, and felt ready to run. So, I did.
It takes a long time to develop, but listening to one's body is an invaluable skill.
(*** This strategy is what my body is telling me to do right now. If it tells me something different in the future, then I'm going to do my best to listen to it!)
Yes, I wouldn't go quite that far, but I agree with the general principle. All I've been striving for these last 1-2 months is a guide to give me a flexible weekly program. I already had that with the body part plan, but I got the idea that I'd like to do more full body workouts. If I miss a day or two, or do a truncated version, I would still like to get in all the major lifts, so that requires some thinking about sequencing and the logics of each lift. Numbers don't mean much, but they are a useful language for translating concepts into practice, and I must admit I'm pleased when what I do matches up with what people with experience say is correct. 85%1RM, for example, does indeed fit pretty well as a five-rep set, three sets across. Of course, I'm not getting out the 1-pound plates to make it exact, it could work out to be 87.365% or something in reality. I reduce by whatever plate is convenient, usually 20-50 pound increments on the big lifts, cuz that involves 10- or 25-pound plates. And as I've said before, when I'm feeling it, I push it, when I'm not, I just coast. The main thing is consistency, and it sounds like you've found a good approach that will enable you to exercise consistently, and that's all that matters. For others, having specific goals is the key to consistency, and that's a beautiful thing too. I still have the vague goal of lifting 405 deadlift, and running 8mm pace aerobically, but these goals don't influence what I do day-to-day. They are just useful measures of what it feels like to be (relatively) strong or fast.I'll take this opportunity to clarify my philosophy and goals. I consider myself a beginner. I, like many people, have a tendency to want to push forward and make progress when exercising. I've found that training schedules don't work well for me, because I can ignore my body, reach a goal, then pay for it later, requiring more time to recover.
I value daily activity over intermittent activity. I value longevity over past accomplishments. I'd rather be running and lifting moderately at 90, than run X number of marathons or miles.
I, too, am susceptible to fancy looking charts and training schedules. They seem so logical and well thought out! However, I find that training schedules don't work well for me, because my body has its own rhythm. It does not know that it's supposed to run X miles by week 10, or lift Y% of 1RM according to some famous person's awesome training regimen. Yet, some days my body surprises me, by making progress in leaps and bounds. When I fail to listen to my body, I can overdo it, or miss out on an opportunity.
I don't keep track of numbers anymore. Numbers look nice when arranged in rows and columns, but my body doesn't pay attention to numbers. It doesn't know that if it weighs a few pounds less, that it theoretically should be able to run faster. (If my belt is too tight, I know that I need to lose weight!
My strategy is to listen to my body. If it feels like running, I run. If not running, then maybe a swim. Maybe a day off. It told me that it was ready to do weight exercises in the morning and afternoon, so I did that yesterday.
I woke up at 3A today (vs the usual 5A), because my body was sore from exercising more this week. I wasn't sure if I was going to get in a run or lift today. After using my heated massager, it said that it was ready to do my morning weight exercise, so I did. I felt a bit sleepy afterwards and went back to sleep. Woke up at 5:30A, and felt ready to run. So, I did.
It takes a long time to develop, but listening to one's body is an invaluable skill.
(*** This strategy is what my body is telling me to do right now. If it tells me something different in the future, then I'm going to do my best to listen to it!)
For running, I've all but stopped using the Garmin, since last December I think. But when I first got it it was fun to find out what a 8mm or 9mm pace felt like. Having thought through the numbers, in both running and lifting, has freed me up even more to run and lift intuitively, much like practicing one's fundamentals in music or sport allows one to improvise better. I just need a weekly head chart. Then through trail or error one finds out what works best. I don't have the patience or commitment to adopt a complicated set/rep plan, and I don't think it's necessary for someone with such modest performance goals. I always find myself coming back to a week as the basic unit, alternating lifting with running, three times per week each, but I'm still exploring a few other possibilities, like the 5K per day idea, or a four-day lifting schedule.
I reserve that expression for a different max effort outing.
I've found that for my body, some basic cardio and strength training has been quite helpful. It's a pretty simple regimen, but it requires commitment. Nowadays, for beginners, there are Couch to 5K programs.
Those HIIT and exercise videos are fairly straightforward, too. Follow a 30 day cardio workout and get in shape. (Those cardio videos can be somewhat confusing, because they show really buff people doing cardio, but of course they also do strength training.) There are also strength training videos available as well.
To be fair, when a trainer sees a couch potato walking in the door, they recognize someone who has failed to follow those simple programs. The trainer understands that they can't just show the person a few exercises, and leave them be. Since, the client can't be consistent, the trainer has to be consistent for them. The client is bored by regular exercise, so the trainer has to use a variety of flashy activities to keep them interested. (Can you guess what happens when the client is done with their training program?)
In college, I took a gym class for cardiovascular fitness. The requirements were simple: we were expected to log our cardiovascular activity on a regular basis. The university track coach met us at the cross country course, talked about proper form for running, jogged with us for a minute, then took off around the course leaving us in his dust! That was the last time we saw him!
If you are going to go with 1 or 2 lifts a day you should read up on density training.
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online...ining_performance/escalating_density_training
This one is another good similar concept, scroll down a bit on the page to get to the original program.
http://sustainableevolution.wordpress.com/2013/10/01/bryce-lane-5020-program/
I have also done something like timed density training. You set a timer for 20 minutes and then you pick a lift and do 2-5 reps every minute. 2-3 seems to work a little better than 4-5. Its like the 40-60/20 program.
I know you said you didn't care about your past workouts, but as Charles Staley mentions the only way to actually progress is by progessive overload. If you don't keep former workouts in mind its difficult to move forward successfully. Although there is nothing wrong with just doing the same thing over an over again if that's what you enjoy. Also I used to read that breaking muscle website but for every good article there are so many bad ones I would be very hesitant to take any advice from them. T-nation is kind of hit or miss too, but they do have some good authors hence the frequent linking. I could give you some examples from that article you posted but I don't want to be too negative.
Looks like a good rotation to me. You have two heavy lower body days and then in between more dynamic and upper body days. Plus, you have all six different force/direction pairings represented, which is kind of key for me these days. I'm not sure why you're doing two different deadlifts though. A lot of people would say you're better off squating twice and deadlifting once, so maybe on day one do a back squat with the pull downs, and then on day three do deadlifts and squats again, maybe a variant like the front squat or overhead squat.
In my routine, I've gone back to a bottom/middle/top full body, three times per week, workout scheme, with one main exercise for each body area, a secondary one I'll try to get in most days, and then some tertiary or assistance exercises if I have time. So basically 3-6 exercises every workout, but only one or two done heavy. If I'm very limited on time, I just do the bottom exercise and then can do the middle and top stuff the next day without interfering with the recovery from the bottom exercise. Plus I get in what I consider the most essential exercises on Monday and Wednesday, so if stuff comes up, I can shift stuff over a day or two and cut out the Friday workout. That way I can still maintain progress on the main lifts. I feel like I can take a week off from my power cleans, rows, or arms stuff without losing anything. Not so on the deadlift, squat, bench, and press. Basically, I'm trying to maintain my bench, which is already intermediate level, while bringing up my deadlift, squat, and press to intermediate level too, using the old "warm-up, max lift, reduced sets" protocol. The power clean is more of a longer term project. Right now I'm just focusing on technique at a relatively light weight of 125lbs. Doing lots of reps to try to train the neuromuscular aspect of it before pushing the strength aspect. One of Rippetoe's cues is to let the bar drop from the clean position, so that you get a feel for the vertical path the bar should travel when coming up, in order to minimize the moment arm.
I liked that Rippetoe-based article. Summarizes very well many of the things I've been reading over the last month or two. If you want to be strong, just lift heavy with the basics. I didn't even realize a lot of the exercises I felt obligated to do were really bodybuilder exercises meant to be done at higher reps for hypertrophy. It feels much better now to cut a lot of that stuff out and just keep things simple. Keeps me mentally fresh. For others, however, maybe endless variety is the key to staying motivated. Different strokes for different folks. I've always like the simplicity of a free weights and running fitness routine, basically just alternating lifting and running, three times a week for each, and one day of rest. I just need to find a viable way to mix in my plyometrics/mobility stuff now.
Interesting. That might be a good 'fourth' week routine for me, after three weeks of heavy focus, doing something more dynamical to deload a bit.
Thank you very much for all of the thoughtful suggestions. I'm going to keep them in mind, once I move past the beginner stage. I think that I'm still in the neuromuscular development stage right now.
http://www.stack.com/2011/06/10/why-you-gain-strength-before-you-add-muscle/
When I run in my neighborhood, I remember which subdivisons and which streets I've run on. My adjustable dumbbells are color coded such as below, so I remember how far I've progressed. As is in my nature, I do try to push a little further each time.
http://www.stack.com/2011/06/10/why-you-gain-strength-before-you-add-muscle/
I never said that I don't keep track of of my progress.
When I run in my neighborhood, I remember which subdivisons and which streets I've run on. My adjustable dumbbells are color coded such as below, so I remember how far I've progressed. As is in my nature, I do try to push a little further each time.
The Romanian deads hit my hamstrings more than squats or deads.
