Optimal strength training for runners

[Bare Lee]

Thank you very much for all of the thoughtful suggestions. I'm going to keep them in mind, once I move past the beginner stage. I think that I'm still in the neuromuscular development stage right now.
http://www.stack.com/2011/06/10/why-you-gain-strength-before-you-add-muscle/

Yeah, just focus on neuromuscular development and technique in the beginning. That's what I'm doing with the power cleans, and was doing with the squats. Just a little thing like bar placement with the back squat can make a difference with how much you can lift.

The Romanian deads hit my hamstrings more than squats or deads.

OK, but with such a basic routine, I would question why you're adding in a secondary exercise like the Romanian Deadlift, instead of doing another basic exercise, or repeating one of the basic exercises you're already doing. I like the Good Mornings and Tipping Bird for hamstrings, but as a secondary exercise for the regular deadlift. You're already working the hamstrings plenty with the deadlifts and squats, unless you feel like the hammies are a weak link for you deserving special attention. It's like triceps work, it's kind of superfluous because the triceps get worked on several of the basic lifts, like the bench and press. Just a suggestion, I don't see any real problem with Romanian Deadlifts, just not the way I would approach it, that's all.

 

[Abide]

Interesting. That might be a good 'fourth' week routine for me, after three weeks of heavy focus, doing something more dynamical to deload a bit.

I've been thinking about doing this for a 4-6 week cycle after my 40 day cycle is over and try to ramp up running a bit more. Something like

Squat 50/20
2-4 assistance lifts supersetted

Deadlift 50/20
2-4 assistance lifts supersetted

Power Clean and Jerk 50/20
2-4 assistance lifts supersetted

And juts do bench and press and back work as assistance lifts for 5 reps.

 

[Sid]

You're already working the hamstrings plenty with the deadlifts and squats ... I don't see any real problem with Romanian Deadlifts, just not the way I would approach it, that's all.

http://gregnuckols.com/2014/01/23/hamstrings-the-most-overrated-muscle-group-for-the-squat/
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=122613601
Your body =/= My body

Thanks though! I'll keep it in mind for the future.

 

[Bare Lee]

I've been thinking about doing this for a 4-6 week cycle after my 40 day cycle is over and try to ramp up running a bit more. Something like

Squat 50/20
2-4 assistance lifts supersetted

Deadlift 50/20
2-4 assistance lifts supersetted

Power Clean and Jerk 50/20
2-4 assistance lifts supersetted

And juts do bench and press and back work as assistance lifts for 5 reps.

Yah, something like would be intriguing for me too, but I don't know if I could commit to it for more than a week or two. In any case, I first need to focus on reestablishing, and making progress in, a more traditional full-body/three times per week routine. Once everything's up to 'intermediate level', according to ExRx, I'll see where I'm at. I'm already keyed about trying a max lift on my squat in a bit before heading down to the river for a picnic.

My left toe is still stiff, so I'll probably try cycling this week in order to build back some of my cardio while I'm sidelined from running. This really stinks cuz I'm so psyched to start getting in decent 10-to-14-mile long runs on the weekends again.

http://gregnuckols.com/2014/01/23/hamstrings-the-most-overrated-muscle-group-for-the-squat/
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=122613601
Your body =/= My body

Thanks though! I'll keep it in mind for the future.

Yah, definitely not telling you do to do anything. There are a million different ways to go about these things. I just wanted to note, as a point of discussion, that working the hamstrings in isolation is probably only necessary if you're working the quads in isolation, like doing leg extensions or something--then you need to do leg curls or something for the hammies. But from a more naturalistic approach (which I've adopted more fully only recently), in contrast to body part/bodybuilder perspective, the deadlifts and squats already cover the basic ways the quads and hammies are supposed to work together to lift a load. Some of the comments in your second link concur. Of course, the squat works the quads more, and the deadlifts work the hammies more, but both are involved in both lifts, working together to lift a load.

So unless you detect some deficiency in your hammies, which may well be the case, it strikes me as odd that you would choose the hammies as the one specific area you need to focus on, when the rest of your routine seems to operate on a more general level. That's all I was trying to say.

One of Rippetoe's main principles is that assistance exercises really should only be done to assist the main ones, otherwise you're just taking time away from the latter, and therefore missing out out on some of their benefit. Of course, only you can determine how much in practice you actually benefit from an exercise, whether it's categorized traditionally as 'primary' or 'assistance.' I tend to think of the dips as being on the same level as the bench press, but most people would view the former as an assistance exercise to the latter. So we all have to integrate the various logics into what ends up working best for us as individuals, I agree.

 

[Sid]

On second thought, my hamstrings seemed like they've been getting a decent workout (sore), and I haven't done any specific exercises.
I'm open taking out the Rom deads, and adding something else in. Any suggestions for a compound exercise that can be done with dumbbells?
Thanks!

 

[Bare Lee]

On second thought, my hamstrings seemed like they've been getting a decent workout (sore), and I haven't done any specific exercises.
I'm open taking out the Rom deads, and adding something else in. Any suggestions for a compound exercise that can be done with dumbbells?
Thanks!

Well, you can see from my routine which exercises I prioritize, and most barbell exercises have a dumbbell version.

Maybe try

squat, pull down
clean and press, bench
deadlift, overhead squat or dips or lunges
high pull, row

or

deadlift, pull down
clean and press, bench
squat, overhead squat or dips or lunges
high pull, row

I really like overhead squats. They're almost a main lift for me.

If you have the space, you could probably pick up a decent bench, barbell and plates set-up for cheap second-hand. If you go that route, try to get a bench that adjusts for squats. That and a chin-up bar is all you need for all the basic lifts. Placed parallel to a wall when you're not using it, the whole thing will only take up about 6'x3' of floor space.

 

[Abide]

You can also do DB snatches in place of high pulls or RDL.

 

[Sid]

Interesting...
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/exercises/exercise_of_the_week_single_db_overhead_squats

 

[Bare Lee]

I don't know if these would work with your dumbbell blocks, but if they do, or if you have a heavy-ish kettlebell, then the kettlebell swing, a.k.a. the hip hinge swing, would work in well with the routine you have too. Something like:

deadlift, pull down
clean and press, bench
squat, hinge swing
high pull, row

I've never really gotten into the hinge swing, but Abide likes it, and I might not like it because my technique is poor. I've been thinking about giving it another try sometime.

 

[Bare Lee]

Interesting...
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/exercises/exercise_of_the_week_single_db_overhead_squats

That looks like a cool variation! But maybe also try both dumbbells up in the air. It's really tough on the lower and middle back. For 'core' work, you might also consider something like Landmines or Woodchoppers to work the transverse plane/obliques a bit.

 

[Sid]

I don't know if these would work with your dumbbell blocks, but if they do, or if you have a heavy-ish kettlebell, then the kettlebell swing, a.k.a. the hip hinge swing, would work in well with the routine you have too.

I'm right with you. The high pull is actually a KB high pull, which includes the swing movement. It's probably the only exercise that I feel is more natural with a KB over dumbbell.

 

[Bare Lee]

Its definitely a different excercise, if you do a narrow/medium grip barbell press I do hit my clavicales when I do these. Dumbell presses are naturally more wide and dont come down as far but I usually go narrow up top and also tend to go neutral. Sometimes I do wide behind the neck presses but dont go down all the way to my back and with lighter weight. Both the dumbell and behind the neck presses usually work more shoulders and the barbell press seems to use more triceps, chest and shoulders.

I would not take the bar in front of me with a wide grip or 90 degress (I think we are talking about the same thing) I think it puts the shoulder at an awkward position if you get down any lower than your ear level, which is about as far as I go behind the neck.

Basically I would do whatever feels comfortable and lets you lift the most weight, but I do think wendler makes a good case for staying away from wide grip presses and benches for shoulder health. And since I have started narrowing my grip for both my shoulders have not had any issues. I don't do dips anymore either.

The last two times I've done the bench press I've followed your/Wendler's recommendation to do more of a shoulder- or slightly-wider-than-a-shoulder-width grip, and this seems to diminish the stress on my left shoulder. So thanks. This morning I Goggled "Wendler bench grip width" and came up with this:
http://undergroundstrengthcoach.com/members/programs/WendlerBenchSecrets.pdf
http://www.jimwendler.com/2012/01/all-about-the-bench-press/

I've also been keeping the bench at 5x3x195, after warm-ups, instead of going up to 225 for 1-2 reps, and then coming down, and I think avoiding the one-rep maxes (actually 90-95%1RM) helps too, at least until I can build up my shoulder strength a bit more with presses and adding my assistance exercises back in (raises, swings, shrugs). I may also add back in the "Bradford Press," something I've dabbled in in the past. If this stuff is successful in rehabbing my left shoulder, I should have pretty good proof that the root cause was muscle imbalance, with the anterior deltoid overpowering the posterior deltoid.

Also, my latest "bottom-middle-top, M-W-F" scheme seems to working well (uploaded). I start with the bottom exercise and then if I run out of time, I can do the middle or top exercises the next day. I've added a few more assistance exercises. As Rippetoe, Abide and others have argued, one you're at the intermediate level, secondary and tertiary movements can promote quicker gains in the primary ones. I'm going to try to get a little better at starting early enough to get in a full 45-60 minutes.

 

[Abide]

The last two times I've done the bench press I've followed your/Wendler's recommendation to do more of a shoulder- or slightly-wider-than-a-shoulder-width grip, and this seems to diminish the stress on my left shoulder. So thanks. This morning I Goggled "Wendler bench grip width" and came up with this:
http://undergroundstrengthcoach.com/members/programs/WendlerBenchSecrets.pdf
http://www.jimwendler.com/2012/01/all-about-the-bench-press/

I've also been keeping the bench at 5x3x195, after warm-ups, instead of going up to 225 for 1-2 reps, and then coming down, and I think avoiding the one-rep maxes (actually 90-95%1RM) helps too, at least until I can build up my shoulder strength a bit more with presses and adding my assistance exercises back in (raises, swings, shrugs). I may also add back in the "Bradford Press," something I've dabbled in in the past. If this stuff is successful in rehabbing my left shoulder, I should have pretty good proof that the root cause was muscle imbalance, with the anterior deltoid overpowering the posterior deltoid.

Also, my latest "bottom-middle-top, M-W-F" scheme seems to working well (uploaded). I start with the bottom exercise and then if I run out of time, I can do the middle or top exercises the next day. I've added a few more assistance exercises. As Rippetoe, Abide and others have argued, one you're at the intermediate level, secondary and tertiary movements can promote quicker gains in the primary ones. I'm going to try to get a little better at starting early enough to get in a full 45-60 minutes.

Glad to hear it's helping I have also been moving my grip in on the press to where the fore fi ger touches the smooth section of the barbell. I seem to be a bit stronger with this setup. My bench grip is a little further out but not much. It really does take the pressure off the shoulders and I have very few shoulder soreness/numbness issues. Once your triceps develop I don't think there would be much difference between the weights either.

 

[Bare Lee]

Glad to hear it's helping I have also been moving my grip in on the press to where the fore fi ger touches the smooth section of the barbell. I seem to be a bit stronger with this setup. My bench grip is a little further out but not much. It really does take the pressure off the shoulders and I have very few shoulder soreness/numbness issues. Once your triceps develop I don't think there would be much difference between the weights either.

Cool. And yeah, weight is secondary to long-term health and strength gains, so even I can't do as much weight, who cares, right? If I can solve this nagging left shoulder issue once and for all, I'll be frickin' happy as h$ll. Besides, the bench isn't a point of emphasis for me right now.

I should note that in my latest scheme, it will still probably be a fairly rare occurrence for me to get to the tertiary exercises, especially for those of the squats and deadlifts and power clean, which start off each workout and in which I'm really trying to make progress on my 1RM. Once I plateau a bit more, the assistance lifts will come more into play. I do like this new layout though, with the sequenced rankings. Really helps keep things clear for me. Hopefully I'll stop messing with my routine for a while now . . .

OK, off to deadlift with maximal effort. It's been several weeks . . .

Did you get your new squat rack yet?

 

[Abide]

Cool. And yeah, weight is secondary to long-term health and strength gains, so even I can't do as much weight, who cares, right? If I can solve this nagging left shoulder issue once and for all, I'll be frickin' happy as h$ll. Besides, the bench isn't a point of emphasis for me right now.

I should note that in my latest scheme, it will still probably be a fairly rare occurrence for me to get to the tertiary exercises, especially for those of the squats and deadlifts and power clean, which start off each workout and in which I'm really trying to make progress on my 1RM. Once I plateau a bit more, the assistance lifts will come more into play. I do like this new layout though, with the sequenced rankings. Really helps keep things clear for me. Hopefully I'll stop messing with my routine for a while now . . .

OK, off to deadlift with maximal effort. It's been several weeks . . .

Did you get your new squat rack yet?

Yep it's how I have been benching now I bought one but they ended up delivering a power rack. So i now have that weights a hex bar, a kb, and some rings, it's the perfect amount of equipment.

How'd the dl's go?

 

[Bare Lee]

Yep it's how I have been benching now I bought one but they ended up delivering a power rack. So i now have that weights a hex bar, a kb, and some rings, it's the perfect amount of equipment.

How'd the dl's go?

Sweet, I'd love to get a power rack someday with a weight stack and cables built in for cross-over flies and pulldowns. That and an acoustic bass are on my dream discretionary income list. I sold my old acoustic bass when I started traveling. Nothing beats the physicality of an acoustic instrument. My electric basses don't give me nearly the same satisfaction, but of course, they're much easier to play, especially if one's chops are as disused as mine.

The DLs didn't go so well. I only managed to get up to 285 x 2 x 3, but then I did 265 x 5 x 3. You got a good lead in our 405 competition in other words. I was surprised, it seemed like my grip strength had atrophied more than my posterior strength over the last 3-4 weeks. Gotta do some loaded carries. After the DLs I blasted away on pulldowns--supine grip and neutral grip--and got a good pump. If I can finish the week with a good workout on Friday, I should be ready to start pushing things again next week. My head cold is 99% gone. Hopefully my left toe will be ready to run then again. Gotta start burning off this winter fat. Took my son to daycare this morning on my bike, so that helps.

Hey another question: I haven't done bench or cross-over flies for a while, but would they have the same effect on my shoulder as a wide-grip bench press? I used to love doing cross-over flies at my gym in Chicago. If I start using dumbbells on the bench again, maybe I should just use them as a press, without the arcing motion? I could do them with neutral grip for some variation.

 

[Abide]

On the deadlift I have the same grip issues once I get above 300 I usually used a mixed grip and just rotate hands between sets. It's much stronger than double overhand and I can focus more on the lift that way.

I don't think the flies really would be an issue mostly because of loading. It's usually at such such a low weight it's doesn't have the same impact as as high weight bench in my experience. It's been as long time since I have done flies though and it tend to just do a simple db bench press at incline when I do them.

 

[Abide]

I think we are pretty close in weight though. I am doing much lower reps than you.

 

[Bare Lee]

On the deadlift I have the same grip issues once I get above 300 I usually used a mixed grip and just rotate hands between sets. It's much stronger than double overhand and I can focus more on the lift that way.

I don't think the flies really would be an issue mostly because of loading. It's usually at such such a low weight it's doesn't have the same impact as as high weight bench in my experience. It's been as long time since I have done flies though and it tend to just do a simple db bench press at incline when I do them.

Well, I did 325 OK a month or so ago, so I'll try to get my grip strength back up first, and then try the mixed grip/set rotation idea if I'm still having trouble. I also need to get back on the loaded carries. Might be a good thing to do first thing in the morning for a while, before I head out. My palm calluses have also atrophied a bit. It's still an open question how much above three hundred I can get anyway. 405 would be nice, but since I've never been that serious about deadlifts it's hard to say what my natural plateau should be. 225 seems to be my natural plateau for the bench press--anything above that seems to come much slower--so that would put me at about 400 for the dead, right? The three lifts I'm really working on are the deadlift, squat, and power clean. That's why one of them anchors each of my three weekly workouts. Presses would be nice to get up too though, but that's probably a longer term project, given my shoulder issues.

Yeah, for the flies, I usually use 50- or 60-pound dumbbells, so about half the weight of my bench press. I might just stick to the db bench press for the time being. I guess it will take some experimentation to find out which exercises or versions of exercises help and which hinder my shoulder health. Need to stretch out the upper body more too. Since I don't have any specific goals on the bench or chest I'll be happy to adjust to whatever works, even dropping the bench press for a while (http://www.musclemag.com/big-bench-big-pecs-shoulder-pain/). I'm more interested in having a strong back than a big chest anyway.

I think we are pretty close in weight though. I am doing much lower reps than you.

We'll see. I'm going to do my best not to let our little competition influence my workouts, but I'm enjoying a little friendly rivalry nonetheless. If I can stay consistent, I think I should be able to get up to 350 for my 90-95%1RM lift by the end of the summer. I'm mostly interested in the deadlift because I'm convinced it improves my running better than any other exercise. It'll be interesting to see how much power cleans help once I become more proficient in those. It would be really cool to do a 225 power clean. If nothing else it would make me a better sprinter.

 

[Bare Lee]

Whoa, reading up and watching a bit more
http://www.humpalphysicaltherapy.co...es/Weightlifters-Shoulder/a~4389/article.html
http://www.sportsinjuryclinic.net/blog/?p=1121

Don't know if I have weightlifter's shoulder or impingement. I'm thinking the latter is more likely, along with tight pec muscles perhaps. Sounds like I should probably eliminate the barbell bench press with pronated grip altogether. Maybe power cleans with barbell and pronated grip as well. At least for a while. For the chest, maybe just do dumbbell bench press with neutral grip and dips (which are also neutral grip)? Maybe my presses should only be neutral grip dumbbell presses as well, and on pull downs I'll try eliminated pronated grip and just do neutral and supine and see if that helps. I could think of it as an opportunity to really focus on the back and legs I guess. And a stronger back might provide the counterbalance if the impingement is partly caused by overdevelopment of the anterior delt and/or tight pectoral muscles. Wait a minute, I guess I'd better do the power cleans with a dumbbell as well, so that they can be done with neutral grip too. Hmnn, gonna have to buy some more ten-pound plates.

So I'll try a routine that reduces the presses, eliminates prone grip, and emphasizes the pulls more for a while (uploaded).

Just backing off the bench and stretching out the pecs a bit has helped so I'm pretty sure this thing is fixable, and it's more inflammation and imbalance than structural damage. That weightlifter's shoulder is scary.