Optimal strength training for runners

Go minimalist, it's great!
I dunno, minimalist in one sense but maximalist in terms of going through 5-6 equipment changes per workout, and alternating lifts each workout. And thinking about all those different lifts could be a bit mentally taxing for me too. Even just twice a week, I've found that it's hard to motivate for squats, deadlifts, and other big lifts the second time around. Another problem for me is that I need several warm-up sets for heavy lifts. But we'll see, I think if I were to do this it would be on a weekly rotation with more of a higher rep, lower frequency routine like the one I have now.
 
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Hmmm, I see on ExRx that there are several exercises per workout.

I do like the one set per workout, twice a day regimen, 7 days a week. This minimizes the equipment changes, and allows me to focus on one exercise, and eliminates any excuses not to workout. With a four day rotation, I can hit each exercise almost twice a week. Obviously, not for everyone though.

It also allows me to run 7 days a week, without feeling to tired or exhausted, and so does not allow for any excuses either.
 
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Was that ExRx article talking about one set per lift or workout?
The article in general was about the merits of high intensity lifting and then frequency (more times per week) versus duration (more sets/reps per workout). Abide, in comment #756, was referring to one application of this concept to a four-day-per-week routine, with two heavy days with just one work set per lift at the beginning of the week, and two lighter days with two work sets per lift at the end of the week. Abide and I then offered up our own modifications of it. Here's a further refinement, which allows one heavy or main lift (in bold) per workout (the first three requiring warm-up sets), and includes running and the plyo/mobility stuff:

Sunday
2 miles
CAMP: Core/Agility/Mobility/Plyometrics

Monday
2-4 miles
Squat: Overhead Squat
Hinge: Deadlift
Pull: Supine Pulldown, Straight Arm Pulldown
Push Dips
Arm: Pullover, EZ Bar Curl

Tuesday
2-4 miles
Squat: Squat
Hinge: Hip Hinge Swing
Pull: T-Bar Row, Russian Twist
Push: DB Overhead Press, Front/Side Raises
Arm: DB Loaded Carry, Forearm Curl

Wednesday
5-7 miles
CAMP: Core/Agility/Mobility/Plyometrics

Thursday
2-4 miles
Squat: Front Squat
Hinge: Power Clean
Pull: Neutral Grip Pulldown, Face Pull, Reverse Fly
Push Bench Press
Arm: Rope Pushdown, DB Curl

Friday
2-4 miles
Squat: Lunge
Hinge: Trap Bar Jump
Pull: DB Row, Seated Cable Row
Push: BB Overhead Press, Shoulder Swing
Arm: DB Loaded Carry, Supinated/Pronated Wrist Twists

Saturday
7-12 miles

I think with a four-day M-Tu-Th-F ST scheme, I would do my mezzo run on Wednesday, and my macro run on Saturday or Sunday. With a three-day M-W-F scheme, I would do macro runs on Tuesday and Thursday, and the long run on weekends. If I can manage 2-4 miles on the non mezzo or macro days, I could still average about 25-30 miles per week, which is my target.

So I would seriously give this kind of four-day scheme a thought. For me, the real question is how much mental resistance I would have. It's just a lot to think about each workout. Of course, I could remain truer to the spirit of the 40-day workout program and reduce the variety, but I think I've identified my essential lifts, both primary and assistance, and it would be hard to throw some out. It's mostly a matter of how best to order and schedule them. Not saying these are the essential lifts for everyone, just the ones that seem to give me the best result. Some on the four-day workout, however, like the lunge and Trap Bar Jump, are ones that I might not normally get around to in three-day scheme. They're there because I don't think I can handle heavy squats and deadlifts more than once a week, especially on a Friday right before my long run day.
Hmmm, I see on ExRx that there are several exercises per workout.

I do like the one set per workout, twice a day regimen, 7 days a week. This minimizes the equipment changes, and allows me to focus on one exercise, and eliminates any excuses not to workout. With a four day rotation, I can hit each exercise almost twice a week. Obviously, not for everyone though.

It also allows me to run 7 days a week, without feeling to tired or exhausted, and so does not allow for any excuses either.
I think your plan is a great one too. It works well for you and your running and is something that you can do consistently. I think once you get into better shape, you may find yourself wanting to do some of the heavier barbell lifts, but that's probably just my bias. For me, I find getting up for st on a daily basis, let alone a twice-daily basis, a bit of challenge. That's why I prefer to go heavy, to get it all done once I've summoned the proper mind-set. I also have trouble trusting ExRx's argument that you don't really benefit much from additional work sets. That simply hasn't been my experience. A few 1-2RM sets and then 2-4 5RM sets always seems about right for the heavy lifts, or at least 3x5RM, and then 2-3 sets of 5RM for the medium lifts, like rows or pulldowns, and 1-2 sets of 5-8RM for the light lifts, like curls and pushdowns.
 
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I think your plan is a great one too. It works well for you and your running and is something that you can do consistently.
Honestly, the twice a day running is beginning to wear on me. The 3mi twice a day is fine. However, the temp doesn't cool down enough in FL for the evening run until 7P, especially with my older dog. The late run doesn't give me enough time to unwind and sleep, then get up at 4:30A. So, I'm going to try to just do the whole 6mi in the morning, (3mi with each dog) then get to bed early. We'll see how that goes. :)

I think once you get into better shape, you may find yourself wanting to do some of the heavier barbell lifts, but that's probably just my bias.
Yes, probably your bias. :D I think I'll stick with my dumbbells for now. (I had a rather unpleasant experience in my youth, where I was benching unassisted, and ran out of steam. I lowered the weight carefully to my chest, then rolled it down off my body. That was Not cool. I had the clips on either end, so I couldn't dump the weight.) Besides, the dumbbells allow me to pick the optimum grip and range of motion for each exercise.

I have my eye on an advanced dumbbell set that goes to 175lbs each. In the very unlikely event that I outgrow those, then I'll find a trainer for Olympic lifts. http://www.powerblock.com/prod_homeuse_xxxl175.php

I also have trouble trusting ExRx's argument that you don't really benefit much from additional work sets.
Definitely, do what you enjoy and feels right for you!
 
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Honestly, the twice a day running is beginning to wear on me. The 3mi twice a day is fine. However, the temp doesn't cool down enough in FL for the evening run until 7P, especially with my older dog. The late run doesn't give me enough time to unwind and sleep, then get up at 4:30A. So, I'm going to try to just do the whole 6mi in the morning, (3mi with each dog) then get to bed early. We'll see how that goes. :)
You're running six miles every day? That's a lot of running! 42 mpw.

Yes, probably your bias. :D I think I'll stick with my dumbbells for now. (I had a rather unpleasant experience in my youth, where I was benching unassisted, and ran out of steam. I lowered the weight carefully to my chest, then rolled it down off my body. That was Not cool. I had the clips on either end, so I couldn't dump the weight.) Besides, the dumbbells allow me to pick the optimum grip and range of motion for each exercise.

Yah, never secure the plates on the heavy lifts, and always have a safety bar or clip or a spotter. I simply can't do max sets on the bench without safety clips or a spotter, or, in the case of my squats, saw horses (thanks to Scratch's excellent suggestion). I don't have the confidence to pull it off, even if 99% of the time I have the ability.

I have my eye on an advanced dumbbell set that goes to 175lbs each. In the very unlikely event that I outgrow those, then I'll find a trainer for Olympic lifts. http://www.powerblock.com/prod_homeuse_xxxl175.php
I think you'll find yourself able to do more than 175 on a deadlift or squat sooner than you suspect. Also, there are advantages and disadvantages for dumbbells just as much as there are for barbells. A dumbbell overhead press, for example, almost feels like a different exercise from the barbell version. Not better or worse, just different. The barbell requires greater balance and works the back more for me. The dumbbells can be done with neutral grip and seem to work the shoulder more.

Still, I like your idea of going to Olympic lifts at some point. I'd like to too, but I'll need a higher ceiling! I'm also a bit lazy, so I probably wouldn't have the mental concentration for technical lifting more than once a week. Just the power cleans can really wipe me, mentally and physically. I'm really panting after a set of those. And you have to really be in the right state of mind to get the technique right. I like the mindless exercises, like pulldowns.
Definitely, do what you enjoy and feels right for you!
It's the only way!

That said, I try to stay open to new ideas. And that ExRx article, and Abide's modification, has really got me thinking.
 
You're running six miles every day? That's a lot of running! 42 mpw.
I've been building up, but I didn't quit get that far, due to the sleep deprivation. Since, I haven't been logging, I think I started on Sun/Mon 3mi twice a day, but bailed Friday since I was exhausted. I slept for about 11hrs last night! I'm going to try tomorrow and see how it goes! :D
 
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Tried a variant of the dumbbell clean and press. Noticed that my left shoulder clicks sometimes with the press. Not painful, though feels a bit odd. Changing grip and positioning didn't help. Based on the landmine video, I tried grabbing the dumbbell with both hands. That did it, no clicking, no odd sensation, feels natural. All good now! :D
 
Well, got a used Stamina Titan 650 for $30, and an Olympic bar for $30:

00u0u_llDmiUkN8yY_600x450.jpg

00l0l_lpU2gFlf3WY_600x450.jpg

I had to drive an hour west for the deal, through pretty farmland. Then closer to home, I picked up eight 45 and two 25 rubber Olympic grip plates for 50 cents a pound:

00303_jwtdyC3Satq_600x450.jpg

They have cosmetic cracks in the center hub, because some idiot was using them like bumper plates, but otherwise in great condition.

My goal is to wean myself off my lat cables, using resistance bands on my chin-up bar, but for $30 and something that fits my low-ceiling garage, I couldn't pass up the stamina rack. This allows me to combine my cable machine and my bench into one work station, freeing up some floor space and permitting less monkeying around with equipment in between lifts. Bizarrely, the Stamina doesn't have pin holes up to squat height, so I'll have to drill those in later today, before my workout. Otherwise, I'm quite pleased. I can hardly wait for the day when I can put four plates on either side of the Olympic bar and do deadlifts. And it'll be great doing power cleans with a proper Olympic bar and rotating plates.

Glad to hear you figured out your issue so quickly Sid. Today my left shoulder feels great, so, although it took me years, I'm hopeful that recent discovery of stretching and massaging and perhaps a narrower grip on the bench press with be my cure. I got these so I can stretch out my shoulders and pecs in my office from time to time:
  • 41AC1%2BRyRAL.jpg
 
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Wow that's great deal I would have jumped on that too just for the pull down.
I drilled holes in my old rack to raise up the height and it worked fine so you should not have any problems. I really liked having 8 45s too it made life easy to have extras.
 
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Honestly, the twice a day running is beginning to wear on me. The 3mi twice a day is fine. However, the temp doesn't cool down enough in FL for the evening run until 7P, especially with my older dog. The late run doesn't give me enough time to unwind and sleep, then get up at 4:30A. So, I'm going to try to just do the whole 6mi in the morning, (3mi with each dog) then get to bed early. We'll see how that goes. :)

Yes, probably your bias. :D I think I'll stick with my dumbbells for now. (I had a rather unpleasant experience in my youth, where I was benching unassisted, and ran out of steam. I lowered the weight carefully to my chest, then rolled it down off my body. That was Not cool. I had the clips on either end, so I couldn't dump the weight.) Besides, the dumbbells allow me to pick the optimum grip and range of motion for each exercise.

I have my eye on an advanced dumbbell set that goes to 175lbs each. In the very unlikely event that I outgrow those, then I'll find a trainer for Olympic lifts. http://www.powerblock.com/prod_homeuse_xxxl175.php

Definitely, do what you enjoy and feels right for you!
Have you used the advanced set before? It seems like it might have some leverage issues when using it? Are you limited on space?
 
Have you used the advanced set before?
No, but it's the same design as the lighter set that I have now.
It seems like it might have some leverage issues when using it?
Leverage is good. It's hard to see from those photos, but the handle is in the center of mass.
Are you limited on space?
Yes, out of space, but I will squeeze these in somehow! :D
They are pricey, but I really like how quickly one can change the weight.

Fast forward to time=6:45
 
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No, but it's the same design as the lighter set that I have now.
Leverage is good. It's hard to see from those photos, but the handle is in the center of mass.
Yes, out of space, but I will squeeze these in somehow! :D
They are pricey, but I really like how quickly one can change the weight.

Got it, that's actually a surprisingly neat invention. I would be interested in trying them, its crazy that clip can keep that much weight attached. Too bad they are way out of my price range. However they are quite portable and they could be a lifetime investment.

How do they work with cleans? Do you have any issues with your wrist when you turn it up top? High pulls should be just fine.
 
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Or, closer to the true spirit of the 40-Day concept, something like this:

A
Squat: [1] Squat
Hinge: [1] Hip Hinge Swing
Pull: [1] T-Bar Row, [2] Russian Twist
Push [1] Bench Press
Arm: [1] Pullover, EZ Bar Curl

B
Squat: [1] Overhead Squat
Hinge: [1] Deadlift
Pull: [1] Supine Pulldown, [2] Reverse Fly (strap),
Push: [1] Overhead Press (BB), [2] Shoulder Swing
Arm: [1] DB Loaded Carry, [2] Forearm Curl

C
Squat: [1] Squat
Hinge: [1] Power Clean
Pull: [1] DB Row, [2] Seated Cable Row
Push [1] Dips
Arm: [1] Rope Pushdown, DB Curl

D
Squat: [1] Front Squat
Hinge: [1] Trap Bar Deadlift/Jump
Pull: [1] Neutral Grip Pulldown, [2] Face Pull
Push: [1] Overhead Press (DB) [2] Front/Side Raises
Arm: [1] DB Loaded Carry, [2] Supinated/Pronated Wrist Twists

Repeating the squats and deadlifts twice would help me stay true to the concept of only doing 1-2 work-sets per exercise per workout. Otherwise, this scheme isn't too too different from what I'm doing now, but it does involve doing presses more frequently, which may not be a good thing given my left shoulder issue. On the other hand, with greater frequency, there will be less temptation to push the presses I guess. The only question for me is how often to do the loaded carries. I could alternate them with biceps and triceps exercises and consider them 'arms' exercises.

The main drawback I see in this scheme is all the messing around with equipment. This is where having a power rack like that one from Valor would really come in handy.

Conceivably, one could even rotate the two styles of workout on a weekly basis. One week favoring duration (higher reps) and maybe a little more intensity, like a 1-2RM, the other frequency and a little less intensity. My sense is that, done right, this kind of varying approach would cause progress to speed up some.

For the more intense, higher rep workout week, you'd either have

M: Squat
T: Pull
W: Deadlift (Hinge)
Th: Push
F: Power Clean, Pull & Arms

or

M: Squat, Pull
T
W: Deadlift (Hinge), Push
Th
F: Power Clean, Pull, & Arms

And for the higher frequency workout week, you'd have the scheme I just drew up above, a close copy of yours (Abide's):

M: Squat, Hinge, Pull, Push, Arms
T: Squat, Hinge, Pull, Push, Arms
W:
Th: Squat, Hinge, Pull, Push, Arms
F: Squat, Hinge, Pull, Push, Arms

Thanks, now I have some variation ideas for my next 40 days. You could also conceivably do 20 day workouts in 4 weeks and just pick one rotation focus for 20 days and move on. And remember its supposed to be easy so there isn't really a need to jump huge amounts in weights. Its more a volume program.
You could also focus on one or two main lifts a rotation and pick your lifts accordingly. Say you want to focus your increase in deadlifts then you could use:

B
Squat: [1] Goblet Squat
Hinge: [1] Deadlift
Pull: [1] Supine Pulldown
Push: [1] Overhead Press (BB)
Arm: [1] DB Loaded Carry

This works well because your goblet squat is limited and the workout would go easy and quick except for the deadlift. Then your second 20 days with a squat focus. Overhead squats are fine too.

C
Squat: [1] Squat
Hinge: [1] Power Clean or siwngs
Pull: [1] DB Row
Push [1] Dips
Arm: [1] Rope Pushdown, DB Curl

Same here as your PC and swings are much easier than a heavy squat.

Although I might add some ab work in there too. But I think a focused cycle is a good way to go.
 
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Wow that's great deal I would have jumped on that too just for the pull down.
I drilled holes in my old rack to raise up the height and it worked fine so you should not have any problems. I really liked having 8 45s too it made life easy to have extras.
Yah, the last two 45s were a bit of a caprice, since I could get there with two 25s, two 10s, and four 5s, which I need anyway if I want to be able to move up or down in 10-pound increments for the lighter lifts, but it's motivation now to help me get up to 405, and see those four plates lined up neatly on either side. The plates themselves are massive. I had forgotten how big Olympic plates are. One advantage is that my deadlifts are easier now, since I'm starting from a slightly higher bar height. I didn't get around to working out yesterday, since setting everything up took more time than I thought, but I'll try the deadlifts today. I wouldn't be surprised if the greater height allows me to bump up the weight by 20 pounds or so.

So anyway, got the holes drilled yesterday with my dad's drill press. Screwed up on one hole, which is a little out of alignment but it's in-between bench press and squat height so it should be OK. I also had to grind off part of the rack clips, which were absurdly long and would make me have to clear the bar about 3-4 inches off the rack. Now the clips are about flush with the top of the bar in the rack. I might also throw some 4x4s under the whole thing to elevate it so that the garage door can open all the way. Right now it only opens about five and a half feet high, which is OK, but it would be nice not to have to stoop. I also gotta get some bolts to make safety latches for the bench and squat. I think I can use the same height for both. Feels good to do some honest work with my hands.

I really like the extra floor space with this new set-up, and having it all clear in the middle. I got my dumbbells on one side and my plates and bars on the other. Still, I feel a little bit ambivalent about stacking my standard bar in the corner. That thing has served me well.

Got this for doing dips, arriving today hopefully:
  • 81DEsYsAlCL._SX522_.jpg
I'll just hang it from my bar at squat height or so.

Sid, by the way, that power block looks awesome. A great space-saver. If I could afford it, I would get these: http://www.powerblock.com/prod_homeuse_xxxl125.php; or these http://www.powerblock.com/prod_homeuse_xxxl175.php. But I don't have enough heavy dumbbell exercises in my repertoire to justify the expense, even if I had the dough. Just db rows and db bench presses. Sounds perfect for your program though.

Abide, I liked that article on quality versus quantity. And that PRISE mix seems about right. I really like doing sprints down on the local track. And I eat protein with every meal, that's for sure. Really helps keep my (mild) hypoglycemia at bay. The resistance + endurance training of course is what this thread is all about, and it seems like most of the active participants on this thread have concluded that the anti-stretching campaign is bogus. I can't believe how good my shoulder's been feeling since I started stretching it out more. I don't think it will ever be 100% normal again, but I can manage the issue this way.

Rippetoe's article on abs also seems correct to me, although I still like my crunches (lay down on the floor and then crunch into fetal position, with just your butt touching the floor), hanging leg raises, lifts, swings, and so on. Mobility exercises like mountain climber or donkey kick also work the abs. And doing kicks is also a great way to work the abs--because to kick the abs must contract, they're not used only isometrically. I like the do the knee kick in particular, as if you're kneeing someone in the face. But as some of the commentators point out, extreme ab work has been a no-no for quite some time. I think my older brother or someone told me 30 years ago not to lock the feet under something or have a spotter hold them down while doing sit-ups. And those Roman Chair sit-ups have received a lot of criticism.

Glad my proposed routine gave you some ideas for variation. I'm still not completely sold on the volume approach though. And it just seems hard mentally to keep doing the same set of squat, hinge, push, pull, and loaded carry over and over, even if you're varying the exercises. Also, if you focus on, say, deadlifts for 20 workouts, but then move on to another focus, don't you begin to lose whatever you gained on the deadlifts? Anyway, since I missed yesterday, I'll stick to my three-day "intensity+duration" routine this week and then maybe try your four-day "intensity+frequency" (volume) routine next week.

By the way, the guy I bought the Olympic plates from competes in strong man contests. He was working out with his buddies when I came by. Some serious lifters, very friendly. They liked the fact that an old guy like me was still going at it.
 
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