Warm vs Cold Weather Running Question

[Robbi]

I'm going into the transition back into heat now, and where I was happiest in the warm at the end of last summer and struggled to get used to the cold, all of a sudden the heat is having the same effect - my soles weremore tender after a run just before noon(12km) yesterday in temps of maybe the low 70s F. I was quite surprised at this reaction, but I suppose it makes sense that there'll be an adjustment back, which will probably be less and less with each successive year.

I'll echo the 'hardcore' sentiments above by DB. You may not FEEL hardcore, but believe me, versus the average Jane and and Joe you really are. The fact that you may have got there slowly and carefully makes it no less valid an observation.

 

[Bare Lee]

I agree it's useless to compare ourselves to one another. I grew up in this cold crap, started delivering newspapers in January when I was 11. So it's hard for me to believe someone could have trouble with 41 F. That feels balmy to me. I walked barefoot comfortably a week or two ago at 36 F.

But run barefoot 0 F in snow? Impossible!

And then I also find myself admiring the high mileage runners and the speedsters. 60-80 mpw? A three-hour marathon? Impossible!

For cold weather running, what you have to do is start in the fall, under controlled conditions. See how you do on smooth, dry asphalt, find out what your lowest tolerance is, and then factor in all the other factors: moisture, wind, cement, rough surfaces. And avoid salt! And always bring back-up if you have any doubts whatsoever. I've imposed 20F as my cut-off in ideal conditions, similar to JT. I could probably go a bit lower, but it would be risky--not worth it. But we'll see. I'm more fit than I was last winter, so perhaps the blood flow has improved . . .

 

[NickW]

For cold weather running, what you have to do is start in the fall, under controlled conditions. See how you do on smooth, dry asphalt, find out what your lowest tolerance is, and then factor in all the other factors: moisture, wind, cement, rough surfaces. And avoid salt! And always bring back-up if you have any doubts whatsoever. I've imposed 20F as my cut-off in ideal conditions, similar to JT. I could probably go a bit lower, but it would be risky--not worth it. But we'll see. I'm more fit than I was last winter, so perhaps the blood flow has improved . . .

I would have to agree with Lee here that it's best to start slowly and under controlled conditions. Last winter was my first winter bf and at the beginning getting down to 40F dry was a challenge at the beginning. By the end of winter I was running down to 30-31 F wet and rainy (slightly challenging). Most of us can't just expect to be able to go out in the cold and be fine. Your body does have to acclimate to the different changes in climate. Best way to do that is to slowly and safely work your way down. For me, in our easy climate here that doesn't change a lot, that just meant running every day or every other day and pretty soon my body adapted pretty quickly. So far this winter I seem to be able to handle the low 40's much better already than last year, so maybe your body acclimates better the longer you go barefoot, I don't know.

 

[DB]

It does seem that many of us can increase our tolerance to heat and cold. In 16 months, by following all the advice and making the adjustments gradually, I've managed to go from 50F to 46F as my lower threshold. Many folks will consider that trivial, and in their context, it might be. But those 4 degrees might get me a few more weeks of full runs out

side, so I'm very happy about that.

But despite experience, people will still vary in how much and how quickly they can adapt, and some may not be able to improve their tolerance at all. And even people who have grown up in hot or cold climates aren't necessarily well-adapted to those conditions, either. I see countless examples every summer and winter.

 

[SillyC]

DB,I picked "most people are comfortable at slightly above freezing" because I've been active and reading barefoot running forums since 2009. It's not from my personal experience, although, my personal experience seems to be in the median of what the largest group of people experience.

DB, if you can't run below 50, that's fine. That's your body. But YOU'RE the one who is on the short arm of the bell curve. You're more sensitive than most people.

But also, talk to your doctor - there are a few people that had a similar experience to you, and they all had Reynaud's syndrome. You might want to look into that.

 

[dutchie53]

Like Silly said everyone is different. I can tolerate freezing down to about -5C, but than again I usually do not have gloves or mitts on either at those temperatures. I find if I am cold enough to put on gloves for the entire run, than it is time for some footwear. Some can do cold better than others, I for one do not do all that well when the temps get over +25C.

 

[zapmamak]

The coldest (NorCal) weather I've run barefoot in was about 29 degrees. I honestly have the opposite problem. My feet are quite comfortable in warmer weather but once there's a chill they feel every sharp and jabby bit. I always assumed it had something to do with the fact that I tense up more when its really cold out.

 

[DB]

SillyC,

My point was that with posts about how some people can manage in the cold, others may feel like they are abnormal, and won't post their own experiences. Even worse, those who tried and quit barefoot running aren't counted, either. Basing your opinion solely on forum posts seems to me to be pretty thin evidence. The absolute number of people reporting running barefoot in near-freezing temperatures is actually quite small, compared to the number posting in and reading the forums overall. The Winter Barefoot Challenge also attracts a small number of runners. It's tough to know what the range of normal sensitivity to cold/heat is without some sort of systematic survey. By their very nature, forums lead to like minded and similarly experienced people communicating with each other, so it's easy to get an echo chamber.

When we consider what people experience near freezing temperatures with their hands (numbness, pain, etc.) and what they do to counter the effects (wear gloves/mittens, etc.), it seems to me that the burden of proof is on those who say that barefooting in near freezing temperatures is comfortable for most people. This is especially so because feet are in contact with cold and wet objects (the ground), while hands in cold weather typically are not.

The reason this is important is how new barefooters will react to such pronouncements about what is normal. Will they get discouraged if they have bad cold weather experiences? Telling someone they should go to their doctor because their feet feel uncomfortable running barefoot at near-freezing temperatures will result in the doctor most likely saying "Duh! Put on shoes. Most people probably would be uncomfortable in such circumstances." If this is the main message that beginners get, I suspect many will be turned off and think that they aren't hard-core enough.

 

[NickW]

Why the hostility about bfr'ing in cold temperatures? There is a crap ton of info that we, here in the brs, have stated that you have to slowly work into going out bf in the cold. You have to acclimate to this, you can't just expect to be able to go out, that's insane and quite reckless. Ask Rick, he tried to go out in too cold of weather last year and got frost bite. NO ONE HERE IS SAYING TO GO OUT PAST WHAT YOU ARE COMFORTABLE WITH. What we as a group notice, is that most people, over time, can acclimate to colder temps. It doesn't mean all people can. There is no burden of proof as it is already a proven fact that people acclimate to their environments. This does not mean that people still do not need tools, such as shoes or gloves, to exist in these conditions. It does mean that over time, people acclimate and can handle cooler temps better.

 

[DB]

Nick,

I think you've misread my posts and my intent. I was only pointing out that forum posts are not necessarily a good indicator of what typical barefoot runners, or typical people, experience. People do respond to statements about what is considered to be normal, and when they don't fit in that range, they often count themselves out of that activity.

 

[NickW]

Yes this is true DB, but if you look at physical anthropology you can clearly see that humans can and do acclimate to their climates. Are there outliers who never acclimate AS MUCH as say someone like me? Sure, there is in every group. It does not mean that you cannot acclimate to a lower temperature, it just means the temp you acclimate to may not be as cold as the next person. There's nothing abnormal about that. No one is saying there is.

 

[Bare Lee]

People do respond to statements about what is considered to be normal, and when they don't fit in that range, they often count themselves out of that activity.

I guess I don't really get the point here. If people feel uncomfortable past a certain low or high temperature, surely they'll have enough sense to stop, right? Like Nick said, I don't recall ever reading about winter barefoot running without some kind of warning attached, and pretty much everyone agrees that you should work your way down through the fall to see what your tolerance is.

Plus, I think it's useful to distinguish between mental and physical adaptation. Discomfort involves transforming one's perception. There is virtually no limit here. Just check out the anthropological record, as Nick suggests. Physical adaptation, on the other hand, takes time, and there is, obviously, a limit, a point when our liquid bodies freeze, scorch, or overheat. And there is genetic variation at play too, as you (DB) have pointed out. My body is much hotter than my wife's (speaking strictly in terms of temperature here ). In the winter, she uses an Ikea comforter rated 6, I use one rated 1, and I still have to stick my feet out sometimes to keep from overheating.

I haven't been participating in this forum for very long, but if there's one thing everyone here at BRS seems to agree on, it's that everyone has to find out what works for them, be it training protocols, mpw, terrain, and so on. I haven't perceived the normative pressure of which you speak, although there are pleasant debates, to be sure. It's all very live and let live here, as far as I can tell.

 

[Agnesd]

I've been trying to get in some runs in the colder temps here, and have been doing okay, but it's been pretty dry until recently. Now I'm having a hard time with the cold and wet. It just seems to suck all the heat from my feet so quickly. I've been doing short runs around my neighborhood, then going home to briefly warm up, then go back out again. I've also tried wearing my huaraches for part of the run, but I feel like that's a false sense of security and I'll end up freezing and too far from home.

Even when it snows here, it's more wet than freezing, and most dirt trails are almost entirely mud. My question is, are there any tips for those who are stuck in rainy areas?

 

[NickW]

I'm in Portland and I will wear my huarches if needed, and if needed socks too, until I warm up. If I don't warm up then I don't take those tools off. Usually I don't even have to wear socks and within a half mile to mile my feet warm up and I can run trough all the wet OR wants to throw at me.

 

[JosephTree]

Another trick you might try, Agnes, is ankle warmers. You can find threads that discuss them at length, or just ask and I can go into them here a little. I picked up from other posts that just keeping my ankles warm got my feet to stay warmer or warm up quicker. I also use fingerless mits to get my hands through the warmup phase of cold runs and then it is quick and simple to just roll them onto my wrists to allow my hands to cool off.

9 days ago I had a 10K trail race at 27F, and found my feet hot in VFFs, my hands cold for the first 2.5 miles, and the rest of me fine after less than a mile, hatless, gloveless, and in shorts. This temp was 15 degrees cooler than anything I'd experienced since last winter (and not much then, it having been so mild.) I attribute the quick adaption to race adrenaline. I probably would have slept in if I'd had a chance to think about it or had it to do on my own.

 

[SillyC]

SillyC,

My point was that with posts about how some people can manage in the cold, others may feel like they are abnormal, and won't post their own experiences. Even worse, those who tried and quit barefoot running aren't counted, either. Basing your opinion solely on forum posts seems to me to be pretty thin evidence.

Well, it's a heck of a lot better than just going on personal experience!

I really don't get your point at all, DB. I'm not trying to convince you that eventually you'll be hard-core enough to run in freezing weather. Your feet get cold easily - it's probably a function of your circulation, not your overall badassery. I'm not, uh, what you might call hard-core. I'm a frumpy mom-type. I'm not the honey badger; I'm the teddy bear hamster. But my feet are comfy around freezing.

 

[paraganek]

Even when it snows here, it's more wet than freezing, and most dirt trails are almost entirely mud. My question is, are there any tips for those who are stuck in rainy areas?

As mentioned above by JT, ankle warmers help.
Also you might try putting a layer of clear Vaseline on top of your feet for an extra insulation, it is an excellent thermal insulation agent.
(Not from my brain, took it from http://davidjobs.blog.com/2012/02/29/the-use-of-vaseline-in-cosmetics/ , works well for me)

 

[SillyC]

As mentioned above by JT, ankle warmers help.
Also you might try putting a layer of clear Vaseline on top of your feet for an extra insulation, it is an excellent thermal insulation agent.
(Not from my brain, took it from http://davidjobs.blog.com/2012/02/29/the-use-of-vaseline-in-cosmetics/ , works well for me)

Have you actually tried this? Doesn't it get filthy?

 

[Agnesd]

I tried some of your suggestions for rainy running - I wore my huaraches until I warmed up and I cut off the ankles of some old socks for ankle warmers. I did not try vaseline, as I don't currently have any, but I certainly may try that in the future.

I worked great. My feet were still cool, but not cold and tingly. But I do have a couple spots on both feet that are peeling. I don't have any blisters or pain, and the skin isn't broken, but there's just some random tiny (smaller than the head of an eraser) spots that are peeling. Is this because my soles aren't tough enough? I was doing really good when the ground was dry. Or is this just normal? I just wonder, if it keeps happening, and it's always rainy here, how do keep my soles tough?

 

[NickW]

It may just be normal, depends really on the person I think. Last winter I ran all winter in our wet and rainy Pac NW weather and my feet were fine. A lot of people say that the feet get softer when wet and therefore are weaker, I call hogwash on that. If anything my feet FEEL softer, meaning they get smoother, but don't wear out as fast. Last winter I was able to run 2+ hours in the rain and flooded sections around here and never had a problem. That's with intentionally running through puddles and flooded sections of paved trail.