The Running Form Thread

[Bare Lee]

Yeah a 22oz'r of Arrogant bastard or a bottle of Ommengang Abbey Ale should make it a fun night!

Yah, a nice mellow buzz. Today with the opiates worn off, I can see the toe isn't anything serious. Will probably miss a few days, but should be good to try running on it this weekend or thereabouts. More rest for the my knee I guess

I think your explanation about when tweaking is important in the list makes a lot of sense, initally in a race there really is no need to tweak as your body does handle itself pretty well. Once fatigue sets in I can see how actively modifying your form can get you further, faster.

That was based on observations of elite distance runners, I think I read it in either Hutchinson or Magness. I've tried it a bit on longer runs and it works. I'm more of a stride-dominant runner, so when I start to feel fatigued at the end of a 7-8 mile run, and my form starts to slip, I've tried upping the cadence a bit, and it seems to help.

Jason, I don't have much to say about trails. Unfortunately, I live at the epicenter of the Twin Cities, so it's mostly concrete and asphalt for me. Cool to see you participating so much though. Can we expect more of this now that you're wintering in Cali?

 

[Hobbit]

Also how do you engage the core yet relax at the same time?

Edit: I'm not directly asking you Lee but everyone, it seems like the two are contradictory.

Hello Abide,
Yes, presented like that, it is contradictory. As is the expression "relaxed run" : whenever you are running, some muscles definitely are not relaxed, because they are working, aren't they?

Most people are not aware that they have something called core muscles: The first exercises to wake them up and to feel them are often quite awkward. Once they are functional, they form a kind of muscle chain in the whole body who transmits any movement to the rest of the body. For example: you lift a leg and put all your weight on the other leg. With core muscles functioning, this will be a fluid movement, as every muscle in the body will take it's share in the task and therefore it's a very small workload for every muscle. However, when the core muscles are not functional because they have never been used, the work has to be done by a much lesser group of muscles (say only feet, legs, hips), which in consequence must work harder: you can feel the strain after a while.
Engaging the core muscles when running is not a conscious act (if you you have consciously "awakened" them with specific exercises between your runs) - however they work without much felt effort and you feel perfectly "relaxed".

 

[barefootandagile]

Did someone say RUNNING FORM??

 

[Bare Lee]

Did someone say RUNNING FORM??

 

[barefootandagile]

I have heard that body (POSE)ition is critical to good running form.

 

[Last Place Jason]

I have heard that body (POSE)ition is critical to good running form.

Only if we're falling.

 

[Bare Lee]

I have heard that body (POSE)ition is critical to good running form.

I like to keep my body on top of my legs, and then move my legs around. I call it the RUN method.

 

[Last Place Jason]

Lee- yeah, I'll probably be hanging out here a little more. I still have a busy three weeks, but things should settle down after that.

 

[Abide]

Since we're all form geeks and trail runners (I think), how do these elements of form change from the unchanging roads to dynamic trails?

One big thing I have noticed is there is an increase in cadence and shortening of stride length when running up and down steeper hills. And then a definite lengthening of stride over mild to moderate downhills. I have also noticed I tend to lean back a bit when going downhill.

I'm still trying to master the downhill bombing, thicker shoes have definitely helped. Any other tips?

 

[Abide]

Also I wanted to bring up the arm swing, any new insight? Should we still run like chickens? I have noticed that focusing on a compact upper body is a decent cue to prevent excessive swinging.

Do you agree with Canutes assessment that the lats are the prime mover in the armswing? Shouldn't runners being doing a lot more back work than chest and bi's in the weight room?

 

[Last Place Jason]

One big thing I have noticed is there is an increase in cadence and shortening of stride length when running up and down steeper hills. And then a definite lengthening of stride over mild to moderate downhills. I have also noticed I tend to lean back a bit when going downhill.

I'm still trying to master the downhill bombing, thicker shoes have definitely helped. Any other tips?

I've noticed that exact pattern... shorter strides up, shorter strides on rough downs, and longer strides on non-technical downs.

For bombing, I found experience helps. Knowing the characteristics of the terrain helps, too. Know what stuff is slippery and what stuff can be used for reliable traction.

 

[Last Place Jason]

Also I wanted to bring up the arm swing, any new insight? Should we still run like chickens? I have noticed that focusing on a compact upper body is a decent cue to prevent excessive swinging.

Do you agree with Canutes assessment that the lats are the prime mover in the armswing? Shouldn't runners being doing a lot more back work than chest and bi's in the weight room?

My endless arm swing experimentation found no significant effect as long as the arms aren't swinging across the body. I have a pretty compact arm swing, but I also carry two water bottles most of the time.

As far as musculature, I'm not convinced much strength is needed. If the arms and shoulders are sufficiently relaxed, the motion is quite passive. I found actively "pumping" the arms just wastes energy. That may be a function of pace, though. Sprinting, which I rarely do, may change that dynamic.

I'd probably recommend runners just do a balanced upper body routine, which would involve both anterior and posterior work.

 

[Bare Lee]

Do you agree with Canutes assessment that the lats are the prime mover in the armswing? Shouldn't runners being doing a lot more back work than chest and bi's in the weight room?

I don't know about arm swing, but in general I think back and tris are more important that chest and bis. Unfortunately, my chest responds fast to ST, but my lats are much slower. That's why I attack the latter in both my 'top' and 'bottom' ST workouts.

 

[damianstoy]

Here is what I teach and do for trail running:

If it's a technical trail, cadence and stride length are fixed automatially. Cadence is increased and stride length is decreased in general. My cadence for very rocky trails is sometimes as high as 200 steps/min. And this isn't running very fast.

Flats: Good posture and properly engaging the 'core' are needed for stabilizing the hips and protecting the knees as well as for balance and stability. Lean, pelvic rotation also help.

Downhills: Actively engaging the 'core' has saved my knees on downhills. I use to dread them now I love them. Let your core absorb the impact, not your quads and knees. High cadence/small steps is a good thing. Pelvic/spinal rotation reduces impact greatly and opening up to the back is very helpful. A slight lean forward from the ankles also reduces impact. If you are leaning backwards you are probably heel striking and your feet are landing far out in front of you creating excessive impact. For very steep downhills, I recommend softening the knees, very high cadence, really engaging the core (like a mini-crunch) and not leaning.

Uphills: Good posture is key. Peeling the ankles and not pushing off reduces a lot of energy. It is easier to lift your leg and fall forward vs. push your body weight up a mountain. Trust me, today I proved that. High cadence and pelvic rotation are very helpful.

Upper body: I like a compact arm swing but on rough terrain, the arms are used for balance. I let them fly wild if they want to.

 

[damianstoy]

Here's a question for everyone. I'm curious of your opinions!

Running on trails and 'soft' surfaces is said to reduce injuries and be better for us. Most people believe it is because the 'soft' surface absorbs impact therefore reducing injuries. I think this is bogus.

I believe trails are 'better' for runners and reduces injuries because it forces runners to increase their cadence and as a result their feet land more underneath them which results in reduced impact. Conversely, roads promote reaching out in front, which leads to heel striking and excessive impact=more injuries.

If running on trails results in less injuries because they were softer, wouldn't shoes reduce injuries (which they don't).

Thoughts?

P.S. Last time I checked, trails aren't really soft.

 

[NickW]

Here's a question for everyone. I'm curious of your opinions!

Running on trails and 'soft' surfaces is said to reduce injuries and be better for us. Most people believe it is because the 'soft' surface absorbs impact therefore reducing injuries. I think this is bogus.

I believe trails are 'better' for runners and reduces injuries because it forces runners to increase their cadence and as a result their feet land more underneath them which results in reduced impact. Conversely, roads promote reaching out in front, which leads to heel striking and excessive impact=more injuries.

If running on trails results in less injuries because they were softer, wouldn't shoes reduce injuries (which they don't).

Thoughts?

P.S. Last time I checked, trails aren't really soft.

Running on trails also offers variety, which is key. Running on roads and flat boring surfaces does not offer any variety other than the occasional camber to the road or sidewalk.

 

[Hobbit]

I completely agree with NickW: Trails and other than flat surfaces present a real workout for all the muscles in the feet, contrary to asphalt, on which the movement of the feet is always the same. Soft surfaces, like trails after rain or grass or beach present the same advantage: they demand more muscle work and more attention.
However the "reducing injuries" argument could also apply to soft surfaces: potentially hurtful object, like small pebbles, acorns or twigs get slightly buried in soft soil when you step on them, so they are less hurting the soles.

 

[damianstoy]

Is stronger feet the main reason why trail running reduces injuries? Or would it also be because the 'core' works more? Or my belief that impact is reduced because of higher cadence?

 

[Bare Lee]

I think it's the variety. With road running the muscles, bones, tendons, and ligaments are engaged exactly the same with each step, so there's greater repetitive stress. That's why it's important for me, a primarily road runner, to at least vary my range of motion by incorporating different paces--fast (intervals & hills), medium (tempo run), and slow (LSD) in my weekly routine. I would love to live closer to trails though, that's the way to go, and, if you subscribe to evolutionary arguments, probably the way we were 'born to run.'

 

[NickW]

Is stronger feet the main reason why trail running reduces injuries? Or would it also be because the 'core' works more? Or my belief that impact is reduced because of higher cadence?

Now, I'm no expert and certainly not as experienced as you or Jason or most others for that matter, but your cadence on trail running varies just like the muscles that are getting worked. If it's not a technical trail at all I can see you maintaining a fairly steady cadence, but add in any technicality and then your cadence is going to speed up or slow down depending on foot placement, slipperiness, obstacles, etc... All these things combine to work more of the body, from what you're calling "core" to lower legs to feet. I think the whole "spice" of trail running is what helps to reduce injuries, not just one singular facet.