Speed Endurance, any suggestions?

[Bare Lee]

Hey Skedaddle, my lower leg would get very tight and I never did much about it until I got really bad top-of-the-foot-pain. Now I religiously massage the lower leg, front and back, with a marathon stick and a spiky stick, and stretch out my feet and my legs, and this dual approach has helped a lot. I'm about to incorporate some foam roller stuff into my routine too (you can get a 12" one for $10 with Amazon Prime, or a 36" one for $23--so it's not really worth going the hardware store route unless you think a harder pipe is more effective [I made a nice t-bar for kettlebell swings out of pipe for $10, so I like the low-tech approach when it's equal or better to purpose-built gym equipment(see Kemme Fitness for more ideas)]).

I also think speedwork might speed up the process of speeding up, but I think no matter what you do you will keep improving. An 8mm pace is quite a reasonable expectation for someone in their 50s. That's my impression anyway; lots of older folks do 3:30 marathons, right? Right now an 8mm pace over an hour's time (about 7.5 miles) is my immediate goal. I'm attacking it by running over an hour at 9-10 mm pace, and then doing fartlek runs (with walking breaks) at faster paces, as well as hills once in while, both for an hour or less. I think I'm making progress.

 

[NickW]

Lee, harder pipes ARE more effective, especially when rolling the meaty parts of your legs, quads and hamstrings.

 

[Bare Lee]

Lee, harder pipes ARE more effective, especially when rolling the meaty parts of your legs, quads and hamstrings.

Cool, good to know. How about the back?

 

[NickW]

Cool, good to know. How about the back?

The back? I haven't used a hard pipe on the back, but the foam ones feel glorious on the back. I may go and get me a big black pipe today or in the next few days. When I used Mike's before the race on Monday it really got much deeper and I felt better than when I use my foam roller. It worked out my hamstring issue in one use which my foam one has not been able to do in several weeks of use. The foam ones just give too much, although I have seen some that look like cogs that look like they would be really good. The problem with those is the price....

 

[NickW]

Here's the cog like roller Lee. http://www.amazon.com/OPTP-RR316-Ru...ise-and-fitness&ie=UTF8&qid=1347032233&sr=1-3

 

[Bare Lee]

Thanks Nick. Those look pretty inviting, but I've already laid out a fair amount of discretionary income on this stuff over the last few weeks. It's easy to justify because it's got me back running, but I may hold off on the cog roller for a few more weeks. Looks like it would be great after some heavy lifts though. It's funny, I've never thought about massage before, but I'm coming around to seeing how important it is.

 

[NickW]

Thanks Nick. Those look pretty inviting, but I've already laid out a fair amount of discretionary income on this stuff over the last few weeks. It's easy to justify because it's got me back running, but I may hold off on the cog roller for a few more weeks. Looks like it would be great after some heavy lifts though. It's funny, I've never thought about massage before, but I'm coming around to seeing how important it is.

I understand, I would strongly recommend the hard pipe over a foam roller. The cog one is just way too expensive for me to be able to justify it too. I too am coming around to the idea of massage and it's importance. There's a place near my house that I am contemplating going to that does several different types of sports massage. One of the things they do is trigger point therapy and I've contemplated going just for that, something about a professional doing it to me seems more appealing than me or any of my local friends trying to do it...

 

[Bare Lee]

I think I prefer my wife or inanimate objects.

 

[skedaddle]

Thanks for the pointers folks, some of these rollers are looking like throwbacks from the Spanish inquisition! I think what i need is a good session on the rack and I'll be sorted

 

[Bare Lee]

Confess, confess:

 

[skedaddle]

HaHa I can cope with the cushions but the comfy chair gets me every time.

I've noticed that using the smaller diameter PVC pipe hurts more than the larger diameters. Is that a good or safe practice? I was always under the understanding that if something hurts don't do it. Just checking as it's all a bit new to me.

 

[migangelo]

Nick, massage is awesome and if you'd rather a pro take care of you then great. i believe you'll get better results with that than going to a pod. we may not be as experienced and effecient but we are cost effective.

Lee,

foam is for contraceptives and people who don't like pain. a pipe will work it out much quicker. feels fine on my back. i thought foam was great until i tried a pipe. it's like shoes vs bf.

 

[Bare Lee]

Nick, massage is awesome and if you'd rather a pro take care of you then great. i believe you'll get better results with that than going to a pod. we may not be as experienced and effecient but we are cost effective.

Lee,

foam is for contraceptives and people who don't like pain. a pipe will work it out much quicker. feels fine on my back. i thought foam was great until i tried a pipe. it's like shoes vs bf.

Hey Mike, I didn't realize you were a pro. That explains, to some extent at least, you getting into chiropractic, right?

You've convinced me to take a turn at the pipe, we should have some laying around. I may try to return the foam roller if I like it from a pipe as much as you do. I've barely used the roller and the kids haven't messed it up yet. What do you think of the knobby version Nick mentioned?

If you have a minute, I'd be interested in hearing what sort of massage or trigger point routine you use for running. It has become clear that this has been a major area of neglect for me, more important than the other stuff I've been obsessing about the last several months--cadence, recovery runs, etc. My legs feel so refreshed afterwards, and my year-and-a-half struggle with TOFP appears to be coming to an end, freeing me at last to do the kind of running I want to do.

 

[NickW]

Nick, massage is awesome and if you'd rather a pro take care of you then great. i believe you'll get better results with that than going to a pod.

And Mike, like I've told you a billion times already, I don't know that the original diagnosis of pf was correct. Not going to get into it once again with you as it seems all you've heard was heel pain (which must be pf, right?). My original pod said pf before he even looked at me and immediately after I told him I had heel pain. He stopped listening to me as soon as he heard those two words. Sorry, but I know that there are more things out there that can cause heel pain than just pf. If you immediately think it's pf then your not going to look for anything else. That's lazy and what I call a lazy diagnosis... I'm tired of arguing with you over this. All I wanted to do was to get a dang second opinion. Apparently to you that is a mortal sin.

 

[migangelo]

the only routine i started with was the one Dr Stoxen outlined in "how i got my wiggle back". basicaly just grab your foot and run your thumb from your heel to your toes. there are two tendons there, one to your big toe the other to the second toe. you'll feel them. press where you feel any knots or bumps. support your thumb by curving it into your fist with the tip sticking out. you can apply more pressure with your other thumb on top of that.

from there you work around your ankles. he has video up so you can see what he's talking about. some of those are deep and hard to get at. i've been working at my left foot since before the summer and am still working out my pf but it's getting MUCH better. a lot of snap, crackle, and pop. don't be afraid of that. Dr Stoxen calls it pain exorcism and it certainly is.

jen was able to work a knot out of my heel that i could feel for a long time but couldn't get pressure on because of how deep it was. i think it's the same one Nick complains about. it caused other knots in my arch. now it must be lots of scar tissue because it feels like deflated bubble wrap.

work up your calfs from there including thighs, IT, hammies, glutes, hips. one knot will pull on the other so it will take time to get them all out. it won't help that you won't stop running either. it gets better and better and since your married you can employ your wife in helping you get at ones you can't reach.

i have already but am doing it again. buy Clare Davies book self trigger point therapy manual 2nd ed.

 

[migangelo]

Nick, i'm praying it's only pf. if not then it will only be worse. i have heel pain in the same spot that you do. jen was able to work it out for me yesterday. i couldn't do it because of the angle and it's too deep.

if, and if that's all it is then i want to help you with that. obviously if it's more i can't. you're a grown man so you can do what you want. with my experiences i don't trust dr's too much. they are all taught the same thing so i think you're likely to get the same answer. we are in charge of our health. you know when something is wrong. Dr's can't always find it. remember, they are people, not gods. they may think it but it's not true. if you're not happy with yours then fire him and find another.

i want you running and pain free again almost as much as you do.

 

[NickW]

Nick, i'm praying it's only pf. if not then it will only be worse. i have heel pain in the same spot that you do. jen was able to work it out for me yesterday. i couldn't do it because of the angle and it's too deep.

if, and if that's all it is then i want to help you with that. obviously if it's more i can't. you're a grown man so you can do what you want. with my experiences i don't trust dr's too much. they are all taught the same thing so i think you're likely to get the same answer. we are in charge of our health. you know when something is wrong. Dr's can't always find it. remember, they are people, not gods. they may think it but it's not true. if you're not happy with yours then fire him and find another.

i want you running and pain free again almost as much as you do.

Mike, if I trusted Drs so much do you really think I would want to be getting a second opinion? Do you really think I have so little experience with Drs that I can't tell when they halfass a diagnosis? I had back pain for many many years before I found a dr that actually cared and looked further into my pain than just the generic, it's muscle spasms. I've learned that I have to be the one to push and find a doc that really wants to get to the root of the problem. That's what I'm doing, but you don't seem to get it and criticize me every chance you get about it. It get's old. I understand you don't believe in Drs at all, that's fine, but I do believe that there are good ones out there, they are just harder to find.

 

[Bare Lee]

Mike, if I trusted Drs so much do you really think I would want to be getting a second opinion? Do you really think I have so little experience with Drs that I can't tell when they halfass a diagnosis? I had back pain for many many years before I found a dr that actually cared and looked further into my pain than just the generic, it's muscle spasms. I've learned that I have to be the one to push and find a doc that really wants to get to the root of the problem. That's what I'm doing, but you don't seem to get it and criticize me every chance you get about it. It get's old. I understand you don't believe in Drs at all, that's fine, but I do believe that there are good ones out there, they are just harder to find.

I think you're right to be skeptical Nick. I'm beginning to doubt I ever had a stress fracture or even serious stress reaction. I looked up some x-rays a bit ago and my metatarsals looked like the normal ones, nothing visible as far as I can tell. I think the doc just said what he thought was most likely, probably based on a little bit he had read on the minimalist/barefoot running trend. I don't think he ever entertained the possibility that tight lower leg muscles could be causing pain in my foot's tendons. I was dumb enough not to question his diagnosis and seek alternative explanations when the TOFP flared up whenever I tried to push things a bit. After just two weeks of not being able to run, I'm running nearly nigglelessly thanks to simple massage and stretching. Amazing. Not saying that will work for you, just that you're right to wonder if there isn't a more therapeutic solution out there.

 

[jldeleon]

Nick,

Take a deep breath, you know we love you.

If you're interested, Mike and I see a really good massage therapist, who is not only excellent at myofascial trigger point release, but he does it PAINLESSLY. Neither Mike nor I (nor my husband) have ever had any pain from him releasing our knots. AND, even better, I found out recently (cuz David is also going) that he is willing to teach your spouse how to work out the knots on you. So like your wife could come and learn how. Just a thought. I "think" he gives a percent off his first session. You'd have to double-check that. Aaron Gustafson

 

[skedaddle]

Well the roller seems to help things along for me, so thanks for the suggestions. I keep hearing about trigger points, are they something i should be concerned about? I'm not carrying any real injuries but it can't hurt to be informed, any good reference, vids or pics on the subject that i can study? Thanks