We've been at it so long, I think we're already in Cuba.The air traffic police type people are going to start looking at this post soon, sounds like a hijacking is about to occur.
Dr. Phil Maffetone - no, not MAF training
- Thread starter BFwillie_g
- Start date
That would be HAWT! I love men in uniforms!!!The air traffic police type people are going to start looking at this post soon, sounds like a hijacking is about to occur.
NickW
Guest
Oh Jen.... Hahahahaha! I would have loved to see Mikes face when he read that!
Back on topic, here's another counter to the Maff method (which isn't the point of this thread anyway, I know, but I thought this would be the best place to insert this):
http://sweatscience.runnersworld.co...or-weight-loss-are-catecholamines-the-secret/
My conclusion, once again: do what you want.
http://sweatscience.runnersworld.co...or-weight-loss-are-catecholamines-the-secret/
My conclusion, once again: do what you want.
NickW
Guest
I did a Maf paced run yesterday. Man that was brutal. Seemed I ached quite a bit running at that pace and it seemed so incredibly slow and boring to me. I will keep the slow Maf paced runs to just one day a week I think. I felt like I was plodding along at a snails pace. I think it's made worse because I've grown accustomed to running much faster.
Tomorrow I'm think of trying a 7.5 mile run--the longest I've run since my stress fracture last fall--steady paced on relatively flat terrain, about 2 miles of mild chipseal, but only if I can maintain 9-9:30mm pace. If I can't, I'll turn it into a Fartlek run and cut off a few miles, and get in some 8mm paced sections. I just don't like doing anything above 10 or 10:30 pace, unless it's the recovery section of my hill repeats. I would love to begin adding more distance, now that my left foot has been consistently OK for several months, but only if I can do it in the 9mm range. We're born to run, not plod! I can't wait for the day when I can run 10 miles at 8mm pace.
NickW
Guest
Ya I understand BL. Yesterday drove me insane. I actually feel more satisfied on the short but higher paced and higher intensity runs. For some reason I also hurt and ache less from the faster paced runs. Within a few minutes at that slow pace yesterday my joints were aching. It was like I had to hold myself back and that was hard, instead of just letting myself run. I had to slow myself from a 10-11 min/mile down to 13:30 at first (downhill) and by the end of the run (uphill) it was over 15 min/mile pace. That was just miserable. My knee hurts much more today too so I am taking today off now, which sucks.
We must be built the same way. But then why are you insisting on low HR? I'm not ready for full-out sprinting yet (I'm waiting for all post-run achiness in my left foot, no matter how minor and brief, to disappear before I dip below 7-8mm on my fartleks), but (relatively) faster paces feel incredibly right for me.
NickW
Guest
I am only doing the low hr runs on my longer days (I hate to say long days because I have cut my mileage back so dramatically right now while dealing with this pf). I do believe that there is some benefits to running with a low hr occasionally, but for me I've noticed my short distance race pace (5k) drop significantly when I do slow Maf training all the time. For me I think there is an optimum balance I can achieve that gives me the most benefits for where I am right now.
I also believe that for someone built like me Maf may not be the greatest tool UNTIL I hit a certain level of conditioning, and I have yet to test that part out because I have not hit that level of conditioning. I wonder if I will ever hit that level of conditioning. I was always a 5min/mile guy for about 5 miles up till about 7 years ago. I don't know if I am built for running at that low of a hr. Even when I followed Maf for 3 months I struggled to keep it under the Maf max. Like it's really really hard to do. I know all you Maf folks are going to say that means I am out of aerobic shape, but I don't necessarily agree. I wish I was better at articulating what I mean. My max Maf hr should be 146, but for me I struggle to keep it under 155. I really operate very smoothly (meaning I feel nice and comfortable, not breathing hard, and have no aches or pains) from 155-180. 185-200 I am really pushing, although I can sustain the high hr for quite a long time. I really do believe that some of us are just built differently.
I also believe that for someone built like me Maf may not be the greatest tool UNTIL I hit a certain level of conditioning, and I have yet to test that part out because I have not hit that level of conditioning. I wonder if I will ever hit that level of conditioning. I was always a 5min/mile guy for about 5 miles up till about 7 years ago. I don't know if I am built for running at that low of a hr. Even when I followed Maf for 3 months I struggled to keep it under the Maf max. Like it's really really hard to do. I know all you Maf folks are going to say that means I am out of aerobic shape, but I don't necessarily agree. I wish I was better at articulating what I mean. My max Maf hr should be 146, but for me I struggle to keep it under 155. I really operate very smoothly (meaning I feel nice and comfortable, not breathing hard, and have no aches or pains) from 155-180. 185-200 I am really pushing, although I can sustain the high hr for quite a long time. I really do believe that some of us are just built differently.
5mm pace for five miles is impressive! I haven't run a five-minute mile since high school, and it was just for one mile. I would just go with what you know. Seven years isn't that long ago. I know you've had back surgery, and are having trouble with PF, but I would bet there's a pretty fast runner still inside you. Do whatever you used to do, it seems to me. You're still in your 30s, right? Maybe you should screw the BFR running while you're building your running up again and healing the PF and then introduce it again little by little, if ever.
Also, while I'm also hesitant to dismiss a method that has worked well for many people, including those performing at fairly elite levels, I have to say, after just a month or two of pushing the pace, I've dropped a minute off my pace.
If you want to be fast, train fast. If you want to run far, train distance. If you want to be strong, lift heavy sh*t. I like the simpleminded approach. I just know my form feels really good faster, and my left foot has been good for several months now, with just a little ache after most runs. The fact that your knee aches at slower paces seems like all the advice you need to run faster.
If you want to be fast, train fast. If you want to run far, train distance. If you want to be strong, lift heavy sh*t. I like the simpleminded approach. I just know my form feels really good faster, and my left foot has been good for several months now, with just a little ache after most runs. The fact that your knee aches at slower paces seems like all the advice you need to run faster.
NickW
Guest
7 years ago seems so incredibly long ago BL. I gained 40 pounds after my two back surgeries. I don't think I will ever be fast again, but I would like to think I will be able to get down to a 7-8 min mile. I can't do what I used to do as I am not in the Army anymore and forced to run with those faster than me. While in the Army I was too fast for the middle of the packers but to slow for the fast group so I was stuck in the fast group. Made me a better and faster runner. I'm 34 so still relatively young.
As far as bf I have kind of decided I am done with it for the time being until my heels heal. I am planning on dropping down the shoes again once I'm healed, but this time in increments. The shoes I have now are considered a minimalist shoe by the shod running world which seems so strange to me. To me they are way built up, but I guess after a year and a half of bf-bf-stg or bfshoes (man I hate that term but it seems minshoes now means built up shoes that are more racing flatish or not even like a racing flat) my perspective is a little different than theirs.
As far as bf I have kind of decided I am done with it for the time being until my heels heal. I am planning on dropping down the shoes again once I'm healed, but this time in increments. The shoes I have now are considered a minimalist shoe
by the shod running world which seems so strange to me. To me they are way built up, but I guess after a year and a half of bf-bf-stg or bfshoes (man I hate that term but it seems minshoes now means built up shoes that are more racing flatish or not even like a racing flat) my perspective is a little different than theirs.
This. I've switched over to some 'long slow distance' running to build endurance, since i have some longer events coming up (two big relays and a half marathon). It's a struggle to pick up the pace right now, where six weeks ago I was working on 5k type efforts at 'race pace' and was seeing good speed increases.
problem is, I'd really like to run far, fast. After the relays in August I'll be incorporating speed work sessions in between my longer runs to see if I can get the best of both. And, for the record, trail running is a good way to blend speed and distance. I find almost all my trail runs to be fartlek runs, with random bursts of speed scattered over a longer run.
NickW
Guest
I do the same on trails Tim. Problem is most of the time I have my son in the stroller so can't do trails much. That's the problem with my wife being in school full time and working full time and me just being in school full time. Our schedules barely work for us to see each other before bed, let alone for me to get a trail run in.
Cool. Yah, 7-8mm pace should be attainable. At 34, age shouldn't really be a factor, unless you're a pro athlete, or if the back problems have taken a toll. I was able to stay in really good shape until my early to mid forties. It's only in the last few years there's been a noticeable decline, and an attendant attitude adjustment after pushing things too fast/far while getting back into shape.7 years ago seems so incredibly long ago BL. I gained 40 pounds after my two back surgeries. I don't think I will ever be fast again, but I would like to think I will be able to get down to a 7-8 min mile. I can't do what I used to do as I am not in the Army anymore and forced to run with those faster than me. While in the Army I was too fast for the middle of the packers but to slow for the fast group so I was stuck in the fast group. Made me a better and faster runner. I'm 34 so still relatively young.
As far as bf I have kind of decided I am done with it for the time being until my heels heal. I am planning on dropping down the shoes again once I'm healed, but this time in increments. The shoes I have now are considered a minimalist shoe
Ultimately that would be my goal too. But I'll probably cap things at 10 miles max. I don't know if I want to work out more than an hour or so a day, and don't have any real desire to race (for the time being). Plus, as I enter the second half of my century of life, I'm wary of incurring repetitive stress type injuries from running too far. My strategy right now is to try to get down to a consistent 8mm pace (on flat, easy surfaces that is) and then build up distance, but there's no real method to what I'm doing, I'm just playing it by ear. I just know the fartleks and hill repeats are benefiting me a lot, so I'm doing them twice a week and then one steady paced run. But I could see possibly dropping the pace on the steady pace run in order to add distance, so long as my feet put up with it. In any case, good to hear from you again, it's been a while . . .
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