Dr. Phil Maffetone - no, not MAF training

BL, I think that's kind of where I'm at too, although I would eventually like to be able to do a fast half marathon at some point in the future. Not even anytime in the near future, just some point down the road. I found some hills the other day I had to walk the last 50meters or so to the top while pushing the stroller so I am really looking forward to conquering those and finding some even steeper after that to conquer. Such a dork I know.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bare Lee
Dude. If you're comparing your times while pushing a stroller, after having a couple back surgeries, to times as a younger man running in fast company....Seriously, though, you're not giving yourself enough credit, I think. You're a younger man than I and have, as far as I can tell from your posts, a more active background than I as well. You'll come back pretty well, i think. The body has an amazing memory and will remember how to do things like it once did (even mine is doing so). Just be patient (says the world's least patient man...)

And Lee, I've not been around because I've become one of those crazy running addicts. I've been running 4-5 days a week, anywhere from 5-8+ miles per run. This has severely cut into my interweb time. I must check my priorities!
 
And Lee, I've not been around because I've become one of those crazy running addicts. I've been running 4-5 days a week, anywhere from 5-8+ miles per run. This has severely cut into my interweb time. I must check my priorities!
Great to hear! You made the right choice, no doubt, both footwear-wise and web-wise. I've been trying to taper the latter, with some success. It kind of got a hold of me a few months back when I was doing really tedious office stuff and looking for excuses to procrastinate, as well as trying to understand the new fitness trends and intellectualize running a bit more. I think the secret is going to be to turn off the email notifications, but I've really learned a lot from these interactions . . . Happy trails!
 
You're a younger man than I and have, as far as I can tell from your posts, a more active background than I as well.
At one time I had a more active lifestyle and background. Now a days you are kicking my butt in the mileage department, and probably speed department as well. It's really hard to gauge how I'm doing speedwise as I always run with the stroller. Right now I am sticking to 2-4 miles 3-4 times a week. Eventually when I get rid of this pf completely I will start building back up again.
 
yeah, but pushing that stroller adds a difficulty factor as far as exertion goes. And, it has taken me ages to get out of the 2-4 mile run rut. I ran once on my vacation a few weeks back and did one hike, then came home to an unlocked running potential. i've been improving in leaps since then. By this I mean: taking a true rest period did wonders for my body in terms of assimilating the exercise and changes overall (diet, etc.). i plan to shut it down for a week following Hood to Coast, then I'll begin half-marathon prep in earnest.

Yeah, Lee; I definitely feel things are coming together with the running (and subsequently the web time..I still could do better at that one, though...). I read somewhere that running 4-5 days a week, even if at very short distances, drives faster improvements. I tried it leading up to vacation, took that week largely off (I mean, I couldn't just NOT run along a canyon rim in Yellowstone...right?) and came back much stronger.

OK. off now to prep for a team bbq/meeting for relay 1(suckers made me team captain...): check out the deets:
http://www.cascadelakesrelay.com/
 
That's awesome Tim. Glad to hear your running is going so well. Hopefully mine will be getting better again soon too. I really think it will, although if my knee doesn't get better soon I'm going to have to completely shut it down till it does. Today I woke up and my heels were a little painful but after putting on my shoes the pain pretty much went away real quick like. Hopefully it will get to where this pf is just a distant memory. I do still roll and stretch every day run or not.
 
For some reason I also hurt and ache less from the faster paced runs. .

This makes sense since your center of gravity is more over the top of your joints the slower you go. I tried running fast on purpose the other day on the trails and I felt good afterwards.

I have noticed that certain aches and pains of mine go away the longer distance I run at one time. And it seems to get particularly good as I approach mile 5. i'm not exactly sure why this is, probably joint lubrication and/or endorphins. But it is interesting, and gives me some hope that one day I may actually be able to actually do an ultra.

And now you know why when I run with Mike, I have to run behind him, cuz that's the only way I can slow myself down enough to stay with him. Lol. And that's also why I don't always run with him. Lol.
 
i'm so slow now i don't even like running with myself. i lose my dog a lot now cuz he gets so bored and sniffs too much good stuff until he doesn't see me then he freaks out cuz people try to pet him.

nick, no worries. we can still be friends. seriously, if you want some help with the trigger points come on over. you just have to help me with the ones i can't get good enough pressure on to release. standing all night at work doesn't help my pf at all.

tim and nick, i hope the shoes cure your ails. i sometimes envy people who can run in shoes. i don't like all terrain that i encounter. thing is shoes give me more problems than they will fix. my form is bad enough bare shoes just makes it worse. or maybe that's what i'm missing now? i used to run in shoes and huaraches more and it always seemed to help me adjust my form. hmm.

just remember to listen to the pain and not ignore it.
 
ya that last post of mine didn't even make sense to me. i don't do very well without food. if you think my posts can be difficult to follow try talking to me. i realize i'm becoming more like my mother. i tell you something but not the whole thing and we wind up looking at each wondering why you don't understand what i'm talking about. i swear though that i've said more than i actually did. i have to work on that.

what i was trying to say is i used to always lift weights and run. i thought i might have an endurance problem because i wasn't getting any faster at hills even though i constantly ran them. i gave the maf method a try and did see that i need more pure aerobic work. so that's where i'm at now. i'm going to stick with the aerobic stuff until i plateau then i will add in fartleks, hills, and body weight workouts. i bought a heavy bag set up instead of a gym membership so no more lifting weights for me.
 
yeah, but pushing that stroller adds a difficulty factor as far as exertion goes. And, it has taken me ages to get out of the 2-4 mile run rut. I ran once on my vacation a few weeks back and did one hike, then came home to an unlocked running potential. i've been improving in leaps since then. By this I mean: taking a true rest period did wonders for my body in terms of assimilating the exercise and changes overall (diet, etc.). i plan to shut it down for a week following Hood to Coast, then I'll begin half-marathon prep in earnest.

Yeah, Lee; I definitely feel things are coming together with the running (and subsequently the web time..I still could do better at that one, though...). I read somewhere that running 4-5 days a week, even if at very short distances, drives faster improvements. I tried it leading up to vacation, took that week largely off (I mean, I couldn't just NOT run along a canyon rim in Yellowstone...right?) and came back much stronger.

OK. off now to prep for a team bbq/meeting for relay 1(suckers made me team captain...): check out the deets:
http://www.cascadelakesrelay.com/
Very cool. I feel like I may have passed a threshold too, will know for sure in a week or two. I was amazed that I could sustain a nine-minute pace over (mild) chipseal last week for five miles. I thought I was still a few months away from that. That's why the 10% rule is just a guideline. Sometimes you cruise along at the same distance/speed/weight for weeks or months, and then all of a sudden you can do a lot more. Your body has somehow prepped and put it all together.

Re: rest, when I was traveling by bicycle, I would often out of necessity or tourism take a lot of days off, sometimes a whole week or two, and it usually did me good, although the first day back would sometimes be hard. In karate too, I would usually take a whole week off every three to four months. Always did a lot of good. Once you've been at this exercise thing for a while, you can usually read your body and know it's time to take a break. For me the problem has been too many breaks over the last year as I've worked through three different minor but nagging injuries on my left side: foot, elbow, and shoulder. I had to rest when I didn't want to, and it was very frustrating, and sometimes I would doubt they'd ever get better, and wonder if age had finally caught up to me. But for the last several months they've all cleared up and I've been making more progress. And if I can stick to this early morning schedule, I should be able to get in 6-7 workouts per week. I have one rest day scheduled in for Sundays, but I may just jump in and repeat the six-day cycle if my legs are asking for it. I'll know in about another hour of wakefulness. Today I'd like to try a 7.5 mile run, but I just remembered there's a hot rod/muscle car show at the fairgrounds I need to pass through, so I may adjust to a nice six-mile route around it.

It's interesting you mentioned running more often. I tried that for a week or two, but my body seems to like the 48-hour rest after any given exercise (I alternate one day of running with one day of weights and rowing). Might be an age thing, might just be me. I'd prefer to run every day because rowing is pretty boring, on a machine and inside. Maybe I could try substituting a shorter run or two for the rowing, although rowing is good for the back, especially after blasting it with deadlifts and other back stuff on weights. I've also thought about doing two runs in a row on weekends, one normal and one longer and slower, up to 90-120 minutes, but I'm wary of over-stressing my foot again. Anyhow, I'm glad the greater frequency is working for you. And good luck on the relay, looks like a lot of fun, and beautiful scenery.

And I agree with you about Nick. I sold our jogging stroller two weeks ago because it's just too hard to run properly with it. It takes a lot more effort, and you can't really use your arms as counters to the opposite leg, and the slight twisting of the torso required to deliver good power to the hips is undermined too. I'd say it takes at least 20-30 percent more effort. Plus I didn't like the fact that I couldn't see my son's face unless I stopped to see if he was doing OK. Plus-plus, it was hard to run with it on anything less than ideal terrain (smooth sidewalks or asphalt paths) and right now I'm digging seeking out challenging surfaces from time to time.
OK, wrote too much again. Time to get to work, or run . . .

Mike, don't stop not making sense. It's very charming. And good luck with your pursuit of Maff happiness. Trust your instincts that it's the right thing for you.
 
Tomorrow I'm think of trying a 7.5 mile run--the longest I've run since my stress fracture last fall--steady paced on relatively flat terrain, about 2 miles of mild chipseal, but only if I can maintain 9-9:30mm pace. If I can't, I'll turn it into a Fartlek run and cut off a few miles, and get in some 8mm paced sections. I just don't like doing anything above 10 or 10:30 pace, unless it's the recovery section of my hill repeats. I would love to begin adding more distance, now that my left foot has been consistently OK for several months, but only if I can do it in the 9mm range. We're born to run, not plod! I can't wait for the day when I can run 10 miles at 8mm pace.

I hate plodding along at 8mm pace. If I can't go 6mm pace I just don't run :/
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bare Lee
my form is bad enough bare shoes just makes it worse. or maybe that's what i'm missing now? i used to run in shoes and huaraches more and it
always seemed to help me adjust my form. hmm.
This is the only part Mike that confused me. I am giving the shoes a fair shake to Mike. I figure I've tried everything else, what do I have to lose.
and sometimes I would doubt they'd ever get better, and wonder if age had finally caught up to me.
This is how I was beginning to feel. I was starting to have my doubts if I was too old, too out of shape, too broken to run.
And I agree with you about Nick. I sold our jogging stroller two weeks ago because it's just too hard to run properly with it. It takes a lot more effort, and you can't really use your arms as counters to the opposite leg, and the slight twisting of the torso required to deliver good power to the hips is undermined too. I'd say it takes at least 20-30 percent more effort. Plus I didn't like the fact that I couldn't see my son's face unless I stopped to see if he was doing OK. Plus-plus, it was hard to run with it on anything less than ideal terrain (smooth sidewalks or asphalt paths) and right now I'm digging seeking out challenging surfaces from time to time.
It's really not that bad when you learn how to run with a stroller. It kind of sucks for the first week or two and then something happens and you click with it. The only times I wish I got to run without the stroller are so I could run trails more and when going downhill. The stroller really messes up my downhill form bad. I really noticed it during the 15k Mike and I did a while back. He took off like a bat out of hell down the hill and I was having trouble finding my rhythm. Of course, if I hadn't slowed down while going up the hill in order to stay back with Mike we probably would have finished together as he would have caught me near the bottom of the hill. ;) I like going uphills and he likes going down them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bare Lee
Re: rest, when I was traveling by bicycle, I would often out of necessity or tourism take a lot of days off, sometimes a whole week or two, and it usually did me good, although the first day back would sometimes be hard. In karate too, I would usually take a whole week off every three to four months. Always did a lot of good. Once you've been at this exercise thing for a while, you can usually read your body and know it's time to take a break. For me the problem has been too many breaks over the last year as I've worked through three different minor but nagging injuries on my left side: foot, elbow, and shoulder. I had to rest when I didn't want to, and it was very frustrating, and sometimes I would doubt they'd ever get better, and wonder if age had finally caught up to me. But for the last several months they've all cleared up and I've been making more progress. And if I can stick to this early morning schedule, I should be able to get in 6-7 workouts per week. I have one rest day scheduled in for Sundays, but I may just jump in and repeat the six-day cycle if my legs are asking for it. I'll know in about another hour of wakefulness. Today I'd like to try a 7.5 mile run, but I just remembered there's a hot rod/muscle car show at the fairgrounds I need to pass through, so I may adjust to a nice six-mile route around it.

It's interesting you mentioned running more often. I tried that for a week or two, but my body seems to like the 48-hour rest after any given exercise (I alternate one day of running with one day of weights and rowing). Might be an age thing, might just be me. I'd prefer to run every day because rowing is pretty boring, on a machine and inside. Maybe I could try substituting a shorter run or two for the rowing, although rowing is good for the back, especially after blasting it with deadlifts and other back stuff on weights. I've also thought about doing two runs in a row on weekends, one normal and one longer and slower, up to 90-120 minutes, but I'm wary of over-stressing my foot again. Anyhow, I'm glad the greater frequency is working for you. And good luck on the relay, looks like a lot of fun, and beautiful scenery.

Self selected rest is always better than stir crazy, injury-based rest breaks. Those have a way of being demoralizing, where scheduled/chosen rest feels like part of a plan and acceptable downtime. When i'm hurt I feel broken and worry I may not come back from it, a terrible feeling. When i say "Tim, you're not running next week so you can assimilate your mileage increases..." it feels like I'm coiling to strike the next run.

But, yes, the first run back is a beeeyotch sometimes

When I started the 4-5 day plan, the added days were initially 1-2 miles. I was advised to do it this way, just to get my self used to the recovery window being shorter. In the grand scheme, a mile is really nothing, so it didn't interrupt the recovery from Monday's run before Wednesday, but it did condition me to getting up and running on the in between day. This week I only ran on the odd days, with a 4 day week (m-W-F-Su). I didn't like it as much as my prior 5 day weeks, but will still hit about 22 miles this week (maybe more if I pull a double as my relay training plan suggests).

Mike, if you start making sense I won't be able to understand you!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bare Lee
what? dammit! i needed to work on making sense too. i was about to ask everyone for help with that. ugh.

rest is very important. if you don't give it to your body it will force you to take it with illness or injury. i also choose self imposed rest days. i just went 4 days of no running and jen talked me into running with her this morning. i'm glad i did because at the end of it she was finally able to work out some of the tiny trigger points in my left foot. my leg got all twisted from my turning y foot trying to protect the pf there. quite uncomfortable.

nick, when i run with shoes or huaraches i listen for foot slapping. it sounds different in each one. it used to help me correct my form shod or bare. i was thinking of maybe adding some runs in. maybe with getting these trigger points out that will be the biggest help to my form.

oh, by the way. if you don't understand all the text speak you can look up translations online. the internet is good for that kind of thing.
 
nick, when i run with shoes or huaraches i listen for foot slapping. it sounds different in each one. it used to help me correct my form shod or bare. i was thinking of maybe adding some runs in. maybe with getting these trigger points out that will be the biggest help to my form.

This is how I've maintained form while running shod. if I get loud I know something's not right and I re-set. Good advice, Mike.
 
what i was trying to say is i used to always lift weights and run. i thought i might have an endurance problem because i wasn't getting any faster at hills even though i constantly ran them. i gave the maf method a try and did see that i need more pure aerobic work. so that's where i'm at now. i'm going to stick with the aerobic stuff until i plateau then i will add in fartleks, hills, and body weight workouts. i bought a heavy bag set up instead of a gym membership so no more lifting weights for me.
Mike, here's an article that states that there is no evidence that resistance training interferes with endurance capacity, in terms of decreasing VO2max or lactate threshold (nor does it increase them):
http://runningphysio.wordpress.com/2012/07/15/resistance-training-and-running/
 
  • Like
Reactions: NickW
Did same hilly route as last week along with adding a ridiculously hard hill and took 2 min off per mile today. :DLast week I ran it in 13:40 avg per mile. Today 11:30 avg per mile. I also conquered those hills that got me last week and added a new hill to conquer. Damn hill got me in like 75-100 meters and I had to walk the rest of the steep part, maybe 300 meters, till the incline was a little more tolerable with a stroller.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bare Lee
Mike, here's an article that states that there is no evidence that resistance training interferes with endurance capacity, in terms of decreasing VO2max or lactate threshold (nor does it increase them):
http://runningphysio.wordpress.com/2012/07/15/resistance-training-and-running/

I have no idea what you just said, lol, but keeping one's heart-rate in MAF's aerobic zone, should be viewed more pervasively as it applies to every day life, and not just when exercising. For example, Mike's max heart-rate is (I think) 135ish. This is super easy to blow out doing pretty much anything; thinking about hot chicks, working, studying for exams, not sleeping well, worrying about...anything -you know, all the things that normal people experience in every day life. So, it would probably actually be just as beneficial to focus on practicing relaxation techniques in general, meditation, visualization, touch therapies, etc. in order to keep your heart-rate down to a certain level. It should, theoretically, improve your aerobic function. Likewise, it should make your resting heart-rate lower, so that it will be easier to keep it down when exercising.
 
ya that last post of mine didn't even make sense to me. i don't do very well without food. if you think my posts can be difficult to follow try talking to me. i realize i'm becoming more like my mother. i tell you something but not the whole thing and we wind up looking at each wondering why you don't understand what i'm talking about. i swear though that i've said more than i actually did. i have to work on that.

what i was trying to say is i used to always lift weights and run. i thought i might have an endurance problem because i wasn't getting any faster at hills even though i constantly ran them. i gave the maf method a try and did see that i need more pure aerobic work. so that's where i'm at now. i'm going to stick with the aerobic stuff until i plateau then i will add in fartleks, hills, and body weight workouts. i bought a heavy bag set up instead of a gym membership so no more lifting weights for me.

I have a BADA$$ hill waiting for you when you are ready for it!!! It's down the road from the Newberry trail. Muah-ha-haaa!