Concurrent Strength Training & Running 2015: Eight-Week Workout Cycle VI

Discussion in 'Training Information/Training Regimens' started by Bare Lee, Oct 9, 2015.

  1. DNEchris

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    Sounds like Maffetone :p
     
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  2. Bare Lee

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    Ha, still at it Chris, decloaking at will!

    Yah, at a fairly abstract level there are parallels. But building up gradually via consistent training is something most people would agree to. The idea of base-building though does bring it more into Lydiard/Maffetone territory, I agree.

    More concretely, however, I like to operate around 80-90% effort level, not 40-50%, and I like to vary intensities with varying rep-counts, loosely analogous to the tried-n-true training advice for runners to mix in hills/intervals (my 3RM) and tempo (my 5RM) along with LSD (my 8RM). A true Maffetonian interpretation would be something like lifting 40% of one's 1RM for 20-30 reps very slowly and/or just before fatigue sets in, right? This is a protocol that no-one serious about gaining strength would follow. It would ignore the inherent differences between aerobic and anaerobic training. I know you were just joking, but it's interesting to think about.

    It's funny, after spending the first few months of getting back into cycling at a strictly aerobic pace, I'm enjoying more of a tempo pace. I think some of us just aren't cut out for the Maff.
     
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  3. Bare Lee

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    So it's become a kind of powerlifting plan based on doubles, with lots of assistance thrown in. Interesting. I suppose any decent strength-training plan boils down to something like that: 3-8 big, compound lifts, and then somewhere between a little and a lot of assistance.
     
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  4. BroadArrow

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    well, i wonder if molting and zombie-zone season is upon me. ground temperatures have been ever so slowly getting cooler and i think i can feel the skin getting thinner. today, after my run, i was washing my feet and ended up molting my first piece of skin off for the fall. and with the thinner skin, i am fearful that the zombie-zone between meta-tarsal heads #2 and 3 will make its reappearance. grrrr... so this post is to help me when i want to look back to see when things started and to see if any "treatments" will help. my current theory is to hit the soles with a bunch of soybean oil. that seemed to help this summer, so maybe it will help in the fall/winter, too. and maybe i need to get a second electric skillet so i can stand in the hot sand bath rather than just resting my feet in it while seated...

    in other news, i did my last workout during commercial breaks while watching tv. its super easy when you take twice as long. :) but, it is not my preferred method.
     
  5. Sid

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    I've been finding the treadmill to be helpful. Perhaps, something to consider for the winter.
     
  6. Sid

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  7. Bare Lee

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  8. Abide

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    Yeah basically power lifting, sorry about the belated response I have been out of it for a week. I was thinking about doing the bench in 3's eventually but I think I over did it last week and roughed up my shoulder a bit. The press doesn't affect my squats, but the bench is more of a heavy lift for me.

    Hopefully I can get things back on track next week, looking forward to running again!
     
  9. Bare Lee

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    Know what you mean, the flu bug and then busy-ness and a lack of motivation have set me back. It's been two full weeks now without a full workout. I'm still sore from Wednesday's squats. Hopefully today's session will go well and get me back on track. Funny how different life feels when the exercise routine is interrupted. I think it even effects my perceptual abilities--just not as sharp or attuned.

    But it's also nice not really caring if I've lost anything during this deload. The goal-oriented lifting seems to be fading. It's becoming more and more of a zen-practice: when you lift, just lift. In that way, I like the fairly fixed routine. It's really a lot like doing the kihon or fundamentals at the beginning of a karate lesson. The same damn thing over and over, getting deeper and deeper into the movements. That said, I'm anxious to resume my grease-the-groove pullup challenge . . .

    Been getting the urge to run again too, but my knees have been feeling really good lately and I'm reluctant to put them at any kind of risk.
     
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  10. Sid

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    It's amazing how crummy one feels after being inactive. Was out of town for a few days, then real busy with work. I was still getting some exercise, just not my usual amount. Didn't get back on track until this weekend. Must be getting old. :(
     
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  11. Bare Lee

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    Yah, getting back to it last week, I noticed the hamstring soreness from squats too.

    Today, oddly enough, I'm sore in my sternum and front ribs from rowing yesterday, weird. Or was it the assisted pullups? Can't escape the principle of specificity I guess.

    Dieting sucks. I can't do deskwork when I'm hungry. My goal is to convert the fat into muscle, not necessarily lose it, and I'm starting to lose weight finally. Frequent, full body workouts that recruit maximal mass, mixed in with aerobic conditioning, are much easier for me than dieting and get about the same results, weight-wise, but much better results in terms of health and looks. I have been cutting out carbs at dinner though, and I don't worry too much about "peri-workout" nutrition any more. I think the necessity of protein shakes and all that is really overblown for the casual lifter.

    I don't know if it's the extra body weight or simply the fact that your body is well-fueled but most seem to agree that it's hard to gain strength while dieting. I do like to eat a lot of protein on my lifting days, but then I back off a bit on my aerobic days. Instead of carb-cycling, I guess I protein-cycle.

    In general, I don't think the body is nearly as fragile or sensitive as some health/nutrition/fitness writers would have us believe. I think once again it's a problem of translating out of high performance regimens, where a lot of principles/protocols/parameters are developed, to more modest general fitness regimens. The human body will adapt to within 80 percent of its genetic potential for strength/health/beauty with fairly simple training and nutrition, it seems to me. Only when someone wants to get up to that 90-100 percent of potential do all the little tweaks matter.

    That said, I do think working in some more assistance lifts will improve my overall fitness and may have some carryover to the main lifts as well.

    Anyway, getting back to it this week, and feeling great as a consequence. Like Sid says, it doesn't take long without exercise before I start to feel crummy.

    BTW, almost ran yesterday . . .
     
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  12. Abide

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    Agreed food/drink is my biggest vice and it seems when I try to diet and feel hungry, the worse rebound mistakes I make. So I guess back to the sensible approach of snacking frequently on healthier foods. Yeah I think supplements are kind of overkill except for convenience. I still like my protein shakes but even being a vegetarian I really see very little difference between using them and not. Mostly its more of a satiation effect.

    Nice about the running, almost means the motivation is there. I did a walk run thing today and I rather enjoyed, and it went at a pretty good overall ultra pace. Maybe give something like that a try? I signed up for a couple of 100k's next spring. Looking forward to doing a couple of events. I am definitely going to stick with only running events this time around.

    That's pretty good insight about the regimens. I think there is some merit to focusing on certain weak areas with assistance but yeah is it necessary? Maybe to get your weakness up to a certain level but beyond that, like you said the 80% is plenty.
    I have kind of come to that conclusion with the back work. I'm really getting the notion that relatively easy, but slower reps make my back feel developed and solid of the lifts but also for running. The heavy reps just seemed to irritate my spine and muscles, and cause a lot of interference with my other lifts.
     
  13. Bare Lee

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    Yah, similar to you, I have trouble giving up my pre-dinner bottle of beer, or my glass of wine with dinner, or three to four beers when I watch the Vikings Sunday nights on Tivo. But it can be done and would definitely help. I'm not sure I subscribe to the "alcohol = empty calories" theory though. Seems like it could be another one of those health/fitness/nutrition myths based on some flimsy study or an incomplete understanding of all the complex physiological interactions involved. I dunno, but dammit, I deserve a nice, cold IPA at the end of the day.

    I forgot you are a vegetarian. So the problem, like you say, is probably in your snacking and/or eating too much processed foods plus the aforementioned alcohol. One thing I've been thinking about, in order to get more vegetable matter into my diet, is to try the cultured or fermented concoctions that seem to be trending right now. Plus I'm sick of my midday raw broccoli/cauliflower/carrots/peppers dipped in ranch dressing routine. Maybe I would eat more variety of veggies if they were prepared differently? "Meat for strength, vegetables for health." Isn't that how Pavel's saying goes?

    One thing, I like to lift with a half-full stomach. I often eat a banana and a protein bar, or some fruit and veggies, right before I workout. That way, I don't have to eat as much the rest of the time, but my metabolism is tricked a little into thinking it has more energy at its disposable. Or something like that. Anyway, staves off the late afternoon hunger and prevents bonking mid-workout.

    Yah, if and when I run again, it will be some kind of interval protocol, like hills running up and walking down, or sprints or 440s on the track with walking breaks. I think steady running would be hardest on my knees. I do miss the motion though and the plantar stimulation. On the other hand, I've been getting into cycling more now that I'm pushing the pace a bit. Makes it a little more of a workout, and less of a ride. Most of all, my knees are feeling great right now so I don't want to do anything to muck things up. Pretty much no post-lifting or cycling soreness anymore.

    Funny, I would've thought you had gotten your ultra fill this year, but I guess until you complete a hundo, it will be calling your name. Good luck with the suffering!

    I think assistance is mainly useful for ROM, like you said earlier I think. A pullover attacks certain muscles in a way that no big barbell lift can, for example. Still, in addition to the handful of main barbell lifts (+ chin-ups), there's probably only about another handful of assistance lifts that are truly useful, right? And half of them are simply dumbbell variations of the barbell lifts. I know you like curls for the girls, but as long as I'm doing chinups or supine pulldowns, seems like my biceps are getting plenty of work. I am coming around to the idea that a little 'core' work might also be useful, although getting back to the Squats and RDLs these last few workouts, I've been pretty impressed with how sore I am in my abdominal area, so it's true those big lifts work the core pretty well. Anyway, the endless quest for a perfect routine continues, but I've been pretty happy with my tweaks this cycle--finally working in a little assistance, and trying to get my pullup on. Now I just have to put a few solid workout weeks together.

    I also worry about heavy Squats and Deadlifts for my spine. That hip issue I had last winter really put the fear of god in me. For the moment, I'm happy progressing very gradually on 3- and 5-rep sets, but my projected 1RM Squat will soon be 300, and it might be tempting to give it a try. My 6'5" nephew has offered to spot me. I'm also wondering if I shouldn't increase the load of the RDLs a bit, and let them progress a little more independently of the Squat. Still, pegging them at a 1:1 ratio to the Squats pretty much takes any risk out of doing them and keeps the workout to just two harder-effort lifts--the Squat and Pulldowns--in the beginning.
     
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  14. Bare Lee

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    Kinda fun: http://symmetricstrength.com/
    Doesn't quite follow the Iron Ratio, but it's close on the four main lifts.
    For a lean(ish) body weight of 210, it would view as symmetrical the following, based on my 1RM PR of 160 lbs on the OHP:
    DL: 382
    SQ: 330
    BP: 245
    OHP: 160
    Chin-up: 9 reps
    P-RW: 200

    Most importantly for me, this brings down the Deadlift to Squat ratio to 1.16:1 instead of 1.25:1, which makes my current projected 1RM DL much more practicable. In fact, I think I have it, based on a Squat 1RM of 298 and Monday's DL attempt at 245, which I probably could've completed. My 1RM BP, at 260, is still way too strong, and Squat and Pullups are still my two weakest lifts, so more of the same, programming-wise. Sometime in February, if all goes well, I should have these numbers for everything except the Pullups, and, of course, the lean bodyweight of 210 . . . I'd be happy with 230-235 by then. Then in May sometime, I could have the 1000-pound powerlifting total, maybe earlier if I were to liberate the BP from the ratios . . . nah, I'm enjoying the structural balance and having eliminated my shoulder issues because of it.

    So throwing down the gauntlet to Abide. It may be taking a lot longer than anticipated, but the 400-pound DL challenge, and the 1000-pound total, are still real possibilities.
     
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  15. Abide

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  16. Abide

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    Ha first you sell me on the microloading scheme and now this! I'll have to layout the whole schematic over the next 4 week and 8 week cycle to see where I am at. Although my 90kg squats are getting a bit heavy now?
     
  17. Sid

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  18. Bare Lee

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    What's wrong with your road bike? I don't know much about the bike market, I've mostly been shopping for accessories since taking up cycling again. One thing you might consider, if you have the discretionary income and yet are able to keep the four young'uns clothed and fed and properly toyed, is one of those bikes that has internal gears in the rear hub and a belt instead of a chain. I've heard they're a lot less maintenance, but I don't know what the price difference would be. I'm also pretty used to my mountain bike handle bars with the extensions on the inside, so I don't know what it would be like going back to the drop-down style handle bars. I kind of like to sit up more and look around. I'm not going fast enough to care about aerodynamics.

    Anyway, let us know what you end up with.

    Yeah, it will be interesting to see what sort of programming you have in store for the coming year. I think I already have a good idea about how I will continue. Being able to do conventional or nearly conventional deadlifts and work with heavier weights has me really excited. On this forum, you guys see me talk a lot of numbers, but the structural balance or symmetric strength idea in practice is yielding very zen-like workouts. I'm getting better and better at intuiting how the system of pulleys and levers is working, and if its well-coordinated. Each lift becomes a piece of the larger puzzle of making it all work with both strength and grace. And I think that sensation is only really possible with a full-body workout. The body-part split routines are too mechanistic, and miss, I think, some of that feeling of an organic whole.

    Anyway, doing the deadlifts on Monday, I was reminded how the way they hit my back had been missing in my workouts. Also, it was funny to see different body parts light up in different colors on that site. Adds a nice imagery to the full-body sensation.

    Thanks for the tip Sid. I'm still working on your last Thanksgiving sale recommendation!
     
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  19. Abide

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    Well I have been having some issue with my front wheel, I probably need to bring it in and get the wheels re-tensioned. However I have had about 5 flats in the last 60 days or so and I am starting to realize as a commuter bike its not really ideal. Changing flats in the winter rains sucks ass. The roads are pretty smooth, but there is enough city riding and bumps that I think is causing to much damage to the wheels, then add on my weight plus an additional 25lbs or so of gear and clothes probably not ideal from a weight standpoint either.

    Yeah I was looking at the internal hubs actually, this one seems to be a pretty nice one, albeit expensive (1000EUR, more than the bike I purchased) http://www.rohloff.de/en/products/speedhub/, shimano has a 7 speed one that we have on a couple of the upright bikes. 100k kilometers without maintenance is pretty awesome. But that might be a little to expensive for me, I also like quick release wheels in case you have a flat on the road. The internal hubs are an absolute pain in the ass to get off when you need to replace your tube on the side of the road. Derailleur maintenance is as well, but at least I am used to that.

    I ended up picking up this one, http://www.fahrrad.de/kona-sutra-se...=22_-1_36897_36899_37149_764106_0_Billiger.de I was going back and forth between the steel frame version and the aluminum one and decided I am not a big fan of the wobbliness of steel. Plus I'll probably never have the welding issues in a remote part of the world and the price was right. Not sure how I'll like the end of the handlebar shifters though. Mainly this one comes with wider tires 700x35 rather than the bike I have now is 700x25, that should solve most of the rough road issues. I will also be able to use sealant if I get the Dunlop valve tubes which should pretty much fix any flat I might get here, the presta valves are impossible form that perspective.

    Drop downs are great here for the wind, but that's the only time I go into that position. I do like the neutral grip option, its a little more comfortable for me than long rides on my mountain bike.

    I'll take a pic when I get it this weekend and let you know what I think.
     
  20. Abide

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    Here you go 14kgs with no pedals and a Brooks b17 seat. 1448645201404-508661518.jpg
     
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