Concurrent Strength Training & Running 2015: Eight-Week Workout Cycle V

Discussion in 'Training Information/Training Regimens' started by Bare Lee, Aug 14, 2015.

  1. Abide

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    Barefooters
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    It's interesting you bring that up about Wendler, I think I overshot my strength levels especially with the 5 rep sets and will probably drop down the maxes next week. I was hoping of skipping the deload week and I think it will be fine with a drop in weights. I have also lost a significant amount of strength over the last few months that I wasn't expecting... The main reason I went with his plan was to coincide the 6 weeks left with 2 cycles. Now I am thinking maybe I'll keep the wendler thing going until I stall out eventually or get bored with it. I think its meshing pretty well right now. I am adding in some daily back work though, the importance of a strong back was very evident at Leadville.

    I'm still bouncing around with goals for the rest of the cycle too, I really want to drop 10 lbs. and I think it might be a good time to do it. Need to wirte my race report too. Alright better get to work!

    I was also thinking of doing some speed work on the bike like you, I have a nice stretch of straight 8k that I think I could push a couple of times a week.
     
  2. Bare Lee

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    Yeah, I wonder what the physiology behind a "two-steps forward, one step back" approach is, but it seems to work. Wendler does it in four-week cycles right? I know you've tried it in the past. I wonder if I could program in something like that and make it work with my microloading approach. So far I've just been deloading by feel or necessity.

    I think when you've had time off, as you have, it's especially important to start light, re-establish some work capacity, and then begin to build up a bit faster than normal till you hit good resistance. This has been my approach during my many rehabs. If you try to hit your old loads right away, you will fail, as I did a month or two ago with my Press loads, but you can probably get back to them faster by taking it down past the point that seems necessary, sit there for a while, and then when everything feels solid again, build back up. Always, of course, with good form. I've become more of a form nazi lately, but I think it's crucial. That's another reason I like avoiding higher rep sets, because my form tends to degrade after five reps, no matter how easy. Mentally, I get lazy and lose concentration.

    I've really felt my postural muscles working while cycling. I probably need to do more back assistance work, like back extensions and landmine twists, but I will adapt anyway in a few more weeks. OK, out for a quick bike ride. Last warm week of the season most probably, gotta take advantage . . .

    Look forward to the write-up.
     
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  3. BroadArrow

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    Barefooters
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    i think so, or even slower. i will be running with my brother and my sole (i.e., 1, not barefoot) running buddy. chances are that i will be the best trained of the three, but we all have slightly different strengths and preparation. thus, i'll probably try to impose discipline and go out slow and try to crank it out for as long as possible and reassess partway through. my buddy has a very deep tolerance for suffering and hence is in danger of overextending too early in such a long race. a 10:30 overall pace is good for about 20th place out of 94 finishers last year, so if we can keep it up, it would position us well to decide if we have enough gas in the tank to speed up at the end and move up the placings. of course, goal #1 is finish under the cutoff and get my companions across for their first 50-mile finish. 94th out of 94 is a perfectly acceptable placement. :)
     
  4. Bare Lee

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    Good to hear you've vanquished the ITBS ogre.
     
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  5. BroadArrow

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    so today i ran basically the same distance as last sunday under similar conditions. except this time, i had to sack out on the couch for 3 hours to recover and hide under a couple blankets to keep the chilling at bay. there were two main differences this time: heat and speed. the temperature started out about the same, but this time it ended up at about 87F and mega-humid instead of 76F. slight difference... as for speed, last time i started out at about 11 minute miles and then upgraded to 10s and "run by feel" (probably about 9:30 for a long stretch) with a little catch-up because i did 4 11-minute miles instead of my intended 3. then i saw a friend and sped up to catch up to her. however, even with that un-even pacing, at the end of the run, i was still good to continue.

    this time, i decided to go out at 9 minute miles and hang on for dear life. which, in the event, turned out to be 20 miles and 3 hours. at that stage i started forced drinking: half a liter as i went past the house and then running from drinking fountain to drinking fountain in loops at the park. the next two hours/ten miles ended up being something like 10:30 miles. but my "innovation" of carrying a tiny plastic up with me worked like a charm: then you don't have to bend down to drink and compress your stomach; also, you can walk around while sipping. additionally, this time i got sick of the heat and decided to walk it in for a 3/4mi cooldown rather than running all the way back home.

    anyways, i think what that means is that i have bounded the butter-burning zone as somewhere above a 9 minute pace and below a 10 minute pace (maybe that 9:45 or so from last week?). cooler weather also helps. :) my knees and legs feel more beat up and sore, too. i don't know if that is the heat or the "blistering" speed or what. i wonder if the faster running draws on more of the sugar burners which then pull something in from the muscles or leave more junk laying around or something rather than just pulling ketone bodies supplied by the liver or whatever. (my ignorant arrogance about biochemistry is showing....)

    anyways, since i'm not nearly eccentric enough already, i've taken to running in a skirt contraption (tiny holstein cow spots, if you have to know the pattern; happily, it camouflages the booty even under wet conditions). it's hilarious when you pass kids because they'll be all like, "mommy! why is that man running barefoot?" it has consistently been that way until i was walking through the little park a couple doors down from my house and some blissfully tactless ?9-year-old boy kept repeating (like 8 or 10 times) loudly to his parents, "that guy's wearing a skirt! that guy's wearing a skirt!" to which his parents were like, "so what?!?" which was kind of refreshing.

    i must say, despite being a one-man rolling freakshow when i go running, i've gotten nothing but positive feedback from the most unexpected corners. i must have gotten about 10 big smile "good morning!"s and giant thumbs ups from, uh, that's right: the grumpy old white man farmer types who i would expect to have bumper stickers on their red GMC pickup trucks begging for "rubio/santorum 2016!" or something. it just goes to show how stereotyping is of limited usefulness, i suppose. go grumpy old white men!
     
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  6. Abide

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  7. BroadArrow

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    basically, a combination of heat/humidity and newly "giant legs". ok, not that giant. but i started getting a little chafing on the very long runs from the inflexibility of that part directly underneath where you have about 4 doubled-over seams coming together. hence, just eliminate the legged things and replace with a long enough tube. the fabric now tends to sit just above my knees. but even though it is longer than my shorts were/are, i think the "lightness" feels more comfortable and obviously less warm. my guess is that i'll drift back toward pants once these 90F days finally go away, but only time will tell.

    i have not seen those particular cups. at meijer's they had something along the lines of the collapsible stuff for camping. initially, i tried a baggie with the corner cut out, but that ended up too hard to fill. my n=2 runs with the hard plastic cup has worked out ok so far. i carry it upside down hooked on one thumb and hold my hunting/camping style GPS with the other hand. now i have balance! :)
     
  8. Bare Lee

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    How about a full-body split? If weren't doing 3 x 5 x 6 lifts, I might do

    one day
    squats, press, row
    and then the other day
    Deadlifts, bench press, pullups/pulldowns

    or something like that, like

    one day
    squats, press, pullups/pulldowns
    and then the other day
    Deadlifts, bench press, row

    you could do more sets, maybe pyramiding, with fewer lifts, yet still get a full-body workout and hit each area--lower, middle, upper--with good frequency. Plus you'd save time by not having to do so many warm-up sets. I might switch to something like this if I start to stall out or get bored with my current routine.
     
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  9. Abide

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    Good plan. I think I might just stick with the same weights for the next 4 weeks and really focus on building consistency. My shoulders been achy when I try to push weights too.

    Capture.JPG

    Oh here is the Leadville report if it sounds negative let me know, because the experience was anything but.
    https://6movements.wordpress.com/2015/09/08/leadville-trail-100/
     
  10. Abide

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    By the way, I despise 5 rep sets for the squat and DL. That's why I added the 20x2 again. I think with the steady weights I can get away with the extra volume. I will probably just work with the EMOM function to get it done quicker too.
     
  11. Bare Lee

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    Looks like a nice set-up. Look forward to tracking your progress with this sort of plan.

    Yah, consistency is key. Probably the only variable that really counts for the beginning and intermediate trainee, besides the Rippetoean mandate to lift big and simple of course (https://www.t-nation.com/training/when-it-comes-to-squats-easier-doesnt-work). I'm starting to reap the rewards now after a couple of months of fairly consistent training, ever since I got the green light from the second ortho mid-July to resume doing squats and deadlifts. It's also helped to have stopped doing singles, so that there's no real goal anymore. Basically my current loads are heavy enough for good, general fitness, so anything on top of that takes me into the bonus rounds. Still, a 300-pound squat is on my mind, and it would be somewhat disappointing not to reach it by the end of the year. Don't know if I'll ever make the 400-pound deadlift. I'm still not sure how hard they are on my knees, but I think I will begin experimenting more with conventional deadlifts to see how the knees handle it, and try building up from there.

    Once you get the consistency down, and things start to feel easy, and there's no achiness, you might want to try the microloading approach. It's been really great for my training. I just show up, do the same damn lifts, and add a half a pound or pound twice a week. After a few weeks, it adds up, but you never even notice it.

    I think that was an excellent write-up. It's great you're at peace with the experience, and have approached all these races with a Zen-like attitude. And 87 miles is still damn impressive!

    Yah, I'm huffing and puffing after a five-rep set of squats or deadlifts, that's for sure. Once I have those done, I relax mentally for the rest of the workout.
     
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  12. Abide

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    Yeah that's exactly it for the 5's. Plus it's extra daunting in the morning when I'm still waking up. I switched the order of my lifts, so the upper lifts are first and then the 20 min sets. It seems to help get warmed up and doesn't seem to affect the lower lifts. I ran a portion of the squat day today it went pretty well. I think I am mostly recovered now from the travel and races so hopefully the consistency will fall in line.

    I might try microloading. Its an easy brainless progression and I think I could go with straight weight so I don't have to think too much.

    The 5x5's felt pretty good today for the press and rows, I think its a good rep scheme.

    Thanks too about the report, I think I am happy most that I still have the desire to do them. I was a little worried that I would swear off racing after it was over but the opposite has been kind of true.
     
  13. Bare Lee

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    My wife says I was probably just hungry, or less full of shit that usual. But hopefully the new hole still feels good for today's workout. When I first got the belt, the notch I'm at now felt uncomfortably tight, Wednesday it felt just right, so perhaps I've finally begun to lose some weight. I think cycling has been the key, after a year and a half of sporadic running. I can't lose weight through anaerobic exercise, and I hate dieting. Only steady aerobic exercise seems to do the trick.
    You're picking up the squat gospel, as preached by Brother Rippetoe and many others. I swear, they're therapeutic. I'm stuck on starting each and every workout with squats. Everything else that follows almost feels like assistance. I can't believe I used to hate squats. Now it would be a lot harder to give them up than running. At least with running, there are viable alternatives like cycling or swimming. But how would you replace squats? With hip thrusts?!?
    Yah, the early morning lifting must be a bitch. Lately I've tried a few workouts late morning early afternoon, and I'm still not warmed up sufficiently, mentally or physically.

    Not sure what you mean by 'straight weight.'

    Yah, once again, I think Rippetoe, from the lineage of Reg Park/Bill Star, is correct. Five reps is just about right. I think maybe Bill Starr read a study that concluded that 4-6 reps and 4-6 sets was optimal, so he choose the Goldilocks principal and went with 5x5. I've read elsewhere in a contemporary study that three sets is really optimal, but since I do two different lifts for each body area (lower, middle, upper), it works out to be more like six sets. With a full-body split like you're doing, based on three lifts, I would think 5x5 is close to optimal.

    It's great to hear your enthusiasm is still there. Plus you have to account for the extra challenge the altitude and terrain of Leadville presents. It's not like you were running around a track 250-300 times like some hundos. I'm starting to build enthusiasm for longer cycling trips on the weekend once in a while. Just have to build up to it and see how much my knees can take.
     
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  14. BroadArrow

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    well, you guys want to send me some of those "notches" in the mail? i've been reduced to counting calories, too, but for the opposite reason. yesterday, i felt like i was eating constantly all day and estimated that i only got in like 3500 calories. grr... i was looking at my running log and saw some pre/post-run weigh-ins that i did to gauge water loss and found that i am now 10-12 pounds lighter than a year ago (and probably more like even 5 months ago). i feel fine (except when i try to eat so much....), but am a little wary of dropping any further. i think i might have to start dropping serious coin on like almonds for snacking or something.
     
  15. Bare Lee

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    Grass is always greener . . .

    The good news is that in about 5-10 years it should become easier to gain weight. I never had to think about this stuff until I was 40 or so.
     
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  16. Sid

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    Nice info from Rippetoe on the squats. Thanks!
     
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  17. Abide

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    I still hate squats, but the range of motion works wonders, and under tension it's even better. I have been doing squats every hour with a band around me knees throughout the day that seems to be helping with the IT issues.

    5x5 for the bench and pull ups worked real well today, the #3-5 sets felt really effective. I really don't want to gain any mass or size in my legs which is why I'm hesitant to do the 5x5 leg work. You definitely need to drop weight on them or do some buildup. It almost becomes more aerobic.

    Straight weight, I just meant load the weight and do all the sets with the same weight for the day. If things get easy by the end of the cycle I might just add another rep or set and do 6 x 6.
     
  18. Abide

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    Lol you don't want these kind of notches. Since you are practically running 100 miles a week I think your weight gain aspirations are going to fail. I think you would probably need somewhere around 6-8k calories to make it work. That's like a pound of almonds a day and 4 chipotle burritos with everything on it.
    Good luck!
     
  19. Bare Lee

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    Blasphemy! You must accept the squat as your savior. It's a recreation of the birth experience, pushing out with tremendous will to render oneself free and independent. Master the squat for independent living and free will. Ayn Rand meets Rippetoe. Love the squat and it will set you free.

    Yeah, I tried four sets again on the squats yesterday. Felt pretty good. It's funny how each set has its own personality. You need to do more than two to discover them. The third and fourth are often the best. I'm thinking I might add another set to my presses as well, just like I did in Cycle II, I think. But for deadlifts and bench press, I'm pretty happy with three sets, at least in the context of a six-lift workout. Doing more than three sets would probably be too much. Then with the Pulldowns and Rows, it seems like it would make more sense for me to add some assistance, like Back Extensions or Landmine Twists, or just 1DB Rows, rather than add sets to them. But I dunno, everything's going well now and adding another set of presses or assistance work might interrupt the flow. Best to keep doing what I got until it becomes a seamless whole.

    So your idea is just to get in four weeks of this program, establish a good, consistent base, and then see where you're at before you begin progressive overload?
     
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  20. Abide

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    I'm still one the fence, after squatting today my left knee has been giving me shit. Weird how DL's bother yours and squats bother mine.

    Yeah that's the plan, I am just trying to get the groove going again. I was thinking about cycling either micro cycles or just per each cycle between a progressive overload and maybe a higher volume plan. So something like I am doing now cause I think the 3 lifts a day works pretty well and then maybe every 4 weeks switch it to add some of wendler's joker sets to the upper stuff (pyramiding basically) and set a new 5 rep level.
    I just need to figure out about my 20 min sets? Maybe microload them for 4 weeks (5kgs) and plateau the next 4?
    Or just microload till I cant finish and then take a step back?
     

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