Carbohydrates?

[stjohnthegambler]

Can somebody help me out with information about carbohydrates? I'm trying to re-evaluate my diet. I have been a vegetarian (lacto-ovo) for twenty years, but have been experimenting with incorporating some meats, at least grass-fed open range chicken. I've also increased my eggs and dairy products, and that feels good.

My question though is in how carbos work. From what I've been reading (like in the book The Vegetarian Myth) carbos basically convert to sugar in our bodies? So that a big bowl of Cheerios is basically a big bowl of sugar? So, I've been mostly cutting out all grains, and that feels really good.

But, I was reading Men's Health (not my favorite mag or anything) and they said that we need carbs for endurance? What does that mean exactly?

Problem: what about legumes? I've checked, and my lentils and black beens have a lot of carbs, yet I'd like to use them for the protein. But are all those carbs worth it? I still feel wierd (morally, long story) about eating meat, so I don't want to abandon my precious legumes, unless they're really not worth the carbs I'm consuming.

Also: is it true that nuts contain an enzyme that actually makes our bodies not process the protein in them?

Any advice/thoughts welcome, as well as some good reliable sources (book or online) that I might want to check out.

St. John

 

[barefoot kean]

the eating habits you

the eating habits you describe are basically the paleo lifestyle. this website has pretty much everything you could ever want to know about this stuff. http://www.marksdailyapple.com/

 

[khyricat]

Carbs are a necessity of

Carbs are a necessity of life. A healthy diet should be 50% carbohydrate UNLESS there is a medical reason otherwise (Diabetes for example). Our bodies run on carbs. A MINIMUM of 110 grams of carbs per day is needed for brain function. A lot of healthy foods contain carbs. Carbs turn to glucose which is stored as glycogen within the body. It is what our body runs on as food. It is POSSIBLE to turn other things to glucose/glycogen as well, but when those alternative processes are needed and used there are some leftovers that can cause major health issues. Diabetics who don't get enough carbs often go into ketoacidosis- where ketones go into the brain and can kill if untreated. similar things happen in non diabetics, but they take longer and are less likely to be deadly.

I always ask everyone to do healthier carbs rather than sugar.. but yes, via different processes and with different side effects they all have different side effects in the body, but all process into the same thing- ENERGY.

Some go through slower processes to get there than others.



Amie the dietitian

 

[stjohnthegambler]

Thanks for both of your

Thanks for both of your posts, though this is a good example of hearing two different 'facts' about carbs. The website from the link seems to be recommending way less than 50% carbs. The paleo diet seems to be minimal carbs at all.

I guess I'm still not understanding what carbs are for. Do our bodies not run on protein instead of carbs?

Are carbs found in meat as well?

At least I feel a little better about my legumes...

Cheers,

St. John

 

[khyricat]

there are 3 main components

there are 3 main components to the foods we eat when we break it down for clients: Carbohydrates, proteins and fats. The body needs all 3 for different things.



Protein builds and replaces muscle MASS. This is needed as muscle within the body dies and is rebuilt ALL the time. This is a standard process. People who don't get enough protein wind up having issues with muscle wasting (mostly the elderly or sick). Excess protein is CONVERTED within the body in a not very efficient process to glucose, with AMMONIA as a side result that has to be excreted (in a healthy body this CAN be done, in a diabetic it's almost impossible, and if too much builds up in either situation it tends to wind up in the brain, causing ketoacidosis). In a healthy body this process of converting protein to glucose and its side ammonia lead to what are called Ketones in the urine- what people on the Atkins diet used to WANT to get despite the fact that it isn't healthy and if it goes on too long can cause some long term health issues. I tell most patients 30% of their calories should be these



Carbohydrates are the FUEL for our bodies. They provide the energy we need in its most usable forms. Their are simple carbs that break down quickly (sugar), and more complex ones (whole grains, vegetables) that break down much more slowly. Excess carbs DO eventually get stored in the fat cells of the body, but so do excess protein and excess fat. We store excess glucose (from any source) as glycogen, and if there is too much of this, it increases the size of the individual cells. There are some situations which cause human fat cells to reproduce, but most fat is at least initially stored by an increase in cell SIZE. This should be half of what you eat- mass or calorically



Fat is the one NO ONE UNDERSTANDS. We need this in our diets. It is especially needed by young children. It is what creates the protective sheathing for our brain synapses, and forms the walls of all cells in the body. It is a large part of skin integrity as well. It is also the most kcal/gram (the other 2 are about 4, this is 9, alcohol which has no use in the body is 7). We recommend people eat 20% of their CALORIES in fat.. which is about 10% of the mass of their food.



Hope that helps..

 

[barefoot kean]

basically, from what ive

basically, from what ive gathered from entirely to much reading, our main source of carbs should be vegetables. these are really good nutrient dense sources of energy that dont have all the adverse affects (ie insulin resistivity and inflammation) that grains of ALL kinds bring. so if you stick to only eating them instead of grains you will get ample carbs for the day, and feel great in the process. this article, although titled about weight loss, has a lot of good information in it about grains and why they should be avoided http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2010/09/19/paleo-diet-solution/. another great source of carbs is fruit. they are loaded with em, and again, with a bunch of nutrients and no adverse affects. then there are all the beauties of meat/fat and nuts/seeds. fat is crazy good for you.

and to answer your question about legumes, my understanding of them is to eat in moderation. they arent necessarily bad, but you dont want to go and eat them every day.

 

[stjohnthegambler]

Ok, thanks all! I think I'm

Ok, thanks all! I think I'm understanding a bit better, though yes, I think there are the Atkins/paleo folks that claim we should eat more protein? That our bodies make all the carbs they need?

I will keep investigating! But thanks again!

John

 

[jschwab]

I think it depends on how

I think it depends on how your body processes carbs. My husband is prediabetic and becomes a mental fog case with constant blood sugar crashes if he eats more than, say, 5-10 grams of carbs a day. I have normal blood sugar and get sluggish unless I get in a certain amount of carbs althought not running I can function well on around 30 g of carbs a day. In general, carbs have less blood sugar impact if you eat them with fat. If you talk to people who track their blood glucose levels after eating different foods, they will often say that grains, even whole grains, cause an identical spike in blood sugar as cookies and sugary snacks. I think everyone has a different sensitivity to all different kinds of foods and figuring out what bothers you can be really critical to health. Potatoes and plain up sugar don't bug me nearly as much as grains. i don't eat them at all for that reason.

 

[FreeYourToes]

I try to stay away from

I try to stay away from simple carbs and even proccessed ones (like in a paleo diet). You might want to try and pick up book called "Slow Burn" by Stu Mittleman. Basically its a book he wrote to teach us how to slow down (while running and run at a certain heart rate) to make our bodies burn fat instead of sugars. Which plays hand in hand with what you eat affects the way you train. He used the principles he was taught by Dr. Phillip Maffetone. Maffetone just published a book "The Big Book of Endurance Training and Racing". I have just started reading this book.



Both of them recomend using the "Maffetone Method" for determining heart rates and they also both suggest limiting sugars and ideally banish them from your diet in order to train your body to burn fat for fuel especially during long strenuous activities such as running, ultramarathons, ironmans etc.



Stu Mittleman is an ultrarunner with numerous accomplishments/records including the record for a 1,000 mile run in 11 days. Phil Maffetone coached Mark Allen, six time Hawaii Ironman Champion, and Stu Mittleman. All of them have written books on the Maffetones training methods. You might want to check it out. I found "Slow Burn" for 5 dollars used on barnes and noble.





And just a litle icing on the cake, Phil Maffetone supports barefoot running (to learn the proper form before you put on shoes)

 

[khyricat]

5-10 GRAMS of carbs a day

5-10 GRAMS of carbs a day does not meet the bodies need for brain function. No doctor or dietitian I have heard of will support that low.. I've seen 100-150 grams. But it is almost impossible to eat less than 100 grams and meet your other nutritional needs anyway. Are you sure its not 5-10 carbs as a diabetic counts carbs? those are 15 grams each and would be closer to one's nutritional needs. there are carbs in everything except meat.



The other post is about something that the mainstream medical community has enough proof against being good for the body that we do NOT support it. Evidentiary proof. Low carb (100 grams a day or so) is one thing, anything less than that isn't.

 

[Lizc0002]

I follow the South Beach diet

I follow the South Beach diet regarding carbs. Refined white carbs are basiscally sugar, your body does not have to work at all to release/digest this sugar, hence the crash and the feeling of needing to eat about 1/2 hour later. I eat carbs but only of the complex variety, whole wheat bread, real oatmeal, sweet potatoes etc. And BTW, I was surprised at the science behind the diet. I always assumed it was a fad diet given the name, but it was actually created by a cardiologist for his heart patients. I use it as a guide to eating more so than a diet as I am trying to maintain rather than lose weight and as an added bonus my heart stays healthy.



Liz

 

[BFwillie_g]

this is one of the most

this is one of the most contentious subjects in the whole realm of nutritional science. The writer that, in my expeience, stands heads and shoulders above the rest when it comes to making sense of it, is Phil Maffetone:

http://philmaffetone.com/home.cfm

My suggestion: read his articles, sign up for his newsletter, and get his book, "The Big Book Endurance Training".

Most of us take it waaaaaay too many carbohydrates/sugar and waaaaaaay too little healthy fats. Carb/sugar (they're the same thing) isn't the only source of fuel available to the body, it's just the easiest one to consume. Learn (train) to get by with less sugar, activate your fat-burning metabolism and you'll feel the difference.

 

[mokaman]

That's a good one willie_g!I

That's a good one willie_g!

I just recieved that book "The Big Book of Endurance Training and Racing", looks really good...kinda ties Phil Maffetone's stuff all together. I already liked his aerobic training stuff didn't know much about all the other stuff he suggests...much of it fits right in for us around here. This looks really good for a no non-sense way to get going with training, diet etc.

 

[bfaubrey]

I've been plant based diet

I've been plant based diet for nine months, tried paleo for a couple, now I just mixed'em up. Basic rules for me are these. I try to eat everything I can in it's wholest form. For example: Big giant bowl of steel cut or groats in the am. Snack all day often on hard boiled eggs,nuts, seeds, fruits. Dinner is lean protien(chicken, venison, tuna) mixed with broccoli steamers or cauliflower. But, when the mileage goes up, I pound the oats, brown rice, black and adzuki and mung beans. Sometimes eat them sprouted. Cook only in olive oil, and I eat too much peanut butter. Simple carbs bad, complex good. Poly and mono fats good, sat and trans fat bad. And If you are a runner, I don't see how one can possibly get enough carbs from veggies to perform. Carbs are your body's number one source of energy, NOT fats and protiens, although you need these things too. Just look at the carbs on a package of broccoli and figure out how much you would have to eat to fuel your runs, one couldn't eat enough. Lizc002 is right on track, complex carbs ALL THE WAY. When I "tried" paleo, my energy sucked on runs over five miles, felt like I was sluggish all the time.

 

[stjohnthegambler]

Hm, now I'm even more

Hm, now I'm even more confused, though I'm all for the basic simple non-processed foods.

So, to use the paleo diet argument: our ancestor Grok, how much carbs did he actually eat? Wasn't he basically eating mostly meat, with some foraging? And wasn't Grok able to run for hours in order to chase down a deer? Surely he wasn't eating 50% carbs?

 

[twinkletoes]

St John,Something you said

St John,

Something you said in your first post caught and held my attention- that you feel good adding the dairy and a little meat. Isn't that the best gauge? I have followed this thread for a bit now and agree completely with Jschwab, again. She points out that different people function differently on varying ratios of grains/carbs vs. proteins and my experience totally corresponds. I have a terrible time with blood-sugar crashing when I eat more fruit and grains than protein. The occasional dark chocolate spins me out too. I feel strongest and am most stable when I eat meat, nuts, fats and vegetables and I run on an empty stomach-always. Dairy completely messes me up me for days. My running partner is the exact opposite: Meat makes her sick and she has to eat toast or cereal & a banana or yogurt before running.

Judging by my own friends and family, we're definitely built differently, so paying attention to our bodies' reactions is crucial and it takes time and experimentation to narrow it down. Took me almost three years to figure out that cheese and butter were killing my guts.

 

[khyricat]

this is so true..  

this is so true.. everyone's bodies are different. Once upon a time we thrived on a hunter/gatherer diet- yet even that was meat on occasion much more berries and naturally growing foodstuff based...

Then we forced our bodies to follow a different diet for centuries or longer... and they adapted.. and they adapted differently... so what is ok for one person may not be for another.

I see this is my dietetics practice as well. there are some basics, but from there, we all have different needs.

I require carbs, no dairy (actually am allergic), no red meat- intollerant digestive tract, but plenty of proteins and such.. as a runner, I eat a bit before, and a lot after a run... and on long runs, some during... though if I carb load 12-24 hours before less during... thats me.. I know some people find carb loading slows them down.

 

[Shacky]

I'm no expert in this but I

I'm no expert in this but I did do some research prior to expermimenting with a keto diet of my own. Technically, carbs are the only thing the body can do without, being able to survive just fine on a diet consisting of fat and protein. The body is more then capable of switching directions and using fat as a 100% fuel source. There will be a 2-3 week period where you will feel lethargic as your body switches but after about a month on an extreme low-carb diet, you will feel back to normal. Although your urine and breath may wreak a bit from the ketones, which are a by-product of ketosis, not to be confuses with ketoacidosis which is indeed harmful.

A keto diet is not for everyone since it can be hellish for the first few weeks and you have to deal with bad breath and strong smelling urine.

I was intrigued with low-carb diets and wondered if one could survive on low carbs and so back in 2008/2009, I tried three variations of keto diets, following each for a minimum of 3 months to gauge it's effect on my body.

I've tried a loose keto diet where you don't count calories and just ensure all you eat is fat and protein. Nice since I hate counting calories. Extreme low carb and ensured I never went over 10g per day. Lost a little weight on this even though my daily caloric intake was pretty high. Lots of fatty meats, cheese, and eggs along with a protein/fiber shake to keep things moving.

I tried a targeted keto diet where you calculate how much protein and fat your body requires. A lot of gym rats go for this one and I wanted to see if it would help with gains in the gym for myself. I leaned up and actually had some lats and biceps for the first time in my life. I didn't like following the strict fat/protein ratios but I did like how my body looked.

I then tried the cyclical keto diet is is more geared towards runners. I followed a strict low-carb during the weekdays and then switched to a high carb/low fat on weekends. During the week I would work out 3x as well as get in my low mileage runs. On Saturday morning I would get in my long run which served 2 purposes. It depletes any glycogen stores you may have remaining as well as teaches the body to burn fat for fuel.

 

[twinkletoes]

I definitely bonk on a long

I definitely bonk on a long run if I've carbo-loaded, so my favorite pre-run dinner the night before is steak or salmon and green veggies. I pay attention to my sweat after a run to know if I'm not getting enough carbs; if it starts to take on an ammonia smell, I know I need to ramp up my rice or grain intake. I'm of the mind that our body will tell us what we need to eat and shouldn't eat, if we're paying close attention. For example, I learned eventually that any dairy, even tiny amounts, causes my pulse to spike to about 120 within 15 minutes of eating it.

 

[FreeYourToes]

twinkletoes wrote:I

I definitely bonk on a long run if I've carbo-loaded, so my favorite pre-run dinner the night before is steak or salmon and green veggies.

That is my favorite thing to eat for dinner before a race. Steak and salad. I suggest everyone tries it