1:59, The Sub-Two-Hour Marathon Is Within Reach

Discussion in 'Training Information/Training Regimens' started by Barefoot TJ, Aug 23, 2014.

  1. Sid

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    Mike, thank you very much for sharing this. From what I've read, it seems very interesting. Just wondering. Is Egoscue a process for rehabilitation, such that once a short course of corrective measures are taken, then the person incorporates them into their daily life?
    Or is it a set of essential exercises, that must be performed regularly for maintenance?
    Thank you!
     
  2. Bare Lee

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    Yah, I don't see how tabatas can cover one's cardio fitness needs, but perhaps for folks with minimal time and patience, it's enough. A lot of people claim to benefit from this model. However, I think for complete running fitness, we have to stick to the tried-n-true combo of intervals/tempo/LSD. What I like about the RDL site is his emphasize on training strength with optimal biomechanical grips and stances, bilaterally and with stable platforms, to maximize the body's ability to express strength. It's helped me a lot to think through his logics. I'd never seen it explained so clearly, although it jibes with most of what the major trainers/coaches have to say.

    Maffetone is certainly correct in desiring to develop the aerobic system, mitochondria, etc. No one disagrees with this, and, as I've said, I can personally testify that this works, having experienced it by riding a loaded bicycle about eight hours a day for two years (with rest days of course). My aerobic capacity improved immensely. Every program I've seen incorporates aerobic training, and it's always something like 65-80 percent of the mileage for elite runners doing 100-120mpw.

    The main disagreement, as far as I understand, is whether you need periods of training this system exclusively. I've read accounts, which I unfortunately didn't save, that describe physiological reasons for how running at threshold furthers one's aerobic development and trains the body to use lactate as fuel. Running sprints and hills furthers one's running economy, ability to recruit muscle fiber efficiently, and neuromuscular development. Trainers such as Canova now ask their runners to train threshold at a much higher percentage of mpw than it was traditionally trained, and Americans such as Ryan Hall have begun to adopt this model as well.

    But as Skedaddle pointed out, none of this really matters for us recreationalists. The important thing is to adopt a model or style that you enjoy, so that you train consistently, and thus become fit. Obviously, you and others like the Maffetone model a lot so it would be ludicrous for you to abandon it. All I was railing against was the presumptuousness of his claim that he understood endurance running better than the trainers who are producing champions.
     
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  3. Sid

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    When engaging in scientific discourse, the participants usually review the same data or articles, so that they can discuss and comment on the data available.

    When people don't review the data, they comment on opinions.
     
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  4. Barefoot TJ

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    I know. A sort of "in your face," my kids would say.
     
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  5. migangelo

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    Sid,

    We just use pubmed, pedro, etc. i get links every month. As you know so much of science is junk. It's kids in school running tests so what they can think of to expirement on can be limited. Good stuff is few and far between and takes longer to study.

    Lee,

    I thought i had more to say but can't remember now. Just had a nap, ate lunch, now class is starting. Elite athletes are also burning fat. You only see them drinking water. If they have something else in their water bottle, well.

    What Maff teaches is active recovery. Going anaerobic breaks the body down by turning up the sympathetic nervous system. The aerobic system turns down the sympathetic system so the body rebuilds. Rest and digest vs flight or fight. Sex and sandwiches. Once the body plateaus you switch your training to either or depending on which you're doing. Doing anaerobic in your aerobic phase is like taking one step forward and two back. It's only about 3 months long and easy to hold yourself off, once you get better adapted. There's the rub. Getting through the first two months begore you notice a difference. It takes time but the payoff willmbe huge.
     

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  6. migangelo

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    That was it. The goal of his training is to run by feel and gadgetless. First it takes the watch but you should be able to ditch it in a few years.?
     

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  7. Sid

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    Yup! Would you consider posting links for the good stuff when you come across it? Thanks! :D
     
  8. Bare Lee

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    Of course, it's not an either/or choice. Canova and others teach threshold running as a way to further develop aerobic capacity. All three energy systems are trained simultaneously, continually. That's the difference as far as I understand. Maffetone's theory of active recovery or whatever we want to call it, is the point of disagreement.

    Still others, in fact, argue the complete opposite of Dr. Phil, that cardio/aerobic training can interfere with strength training, but not the other way around. They also give what appear to be good physiological reasons for their model.

    Like you say, a lot of science is junk, rarely confirmed or replicated, with tremendous pressure to publish before anything conclusive can be said, in order to get the next stage of funding, so for me, when confronted with two contradictory models, neither of which I have sufficient training to judge independently, I do the easiest thing, I go with the pros and ignore the gurus. I'm not saying Maffetone is wrong or debating his model. I'm not qualified. And I'm not trying to dissuade you or anyone else from using it in their training. I'm just saying the guys winning races appear to be ignoring it, and so I feel I can safely ignore it too. If Maffetone puts out a winner who bests their times by 10-15 minutes, or even just 3-4, then I will happily change my views, if not my training, since, as has already been stated, I doubt any of this really matters for a recreationalist like me.
     
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  9. Bare Lee

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    Of course, it's not an either/or choice. Canova, Magness, and others teach threshold running as a way to further develop aerobic capacity. All three energy systems are trained simultaneously, continually. That's the difference as far as I understand. Maffetone's theory of active recovery or whatever we want to call it, is the point of disagreement.

    Still others, in fact, argue the complete opposite of Dr. Phil, that cardio/aerobic training can interfere with strength/anaerobic training, but not the other way around. They also give what appear to be good physiological reasons for their model.

    Like you say, a lot of science research is junk, rarely confirmed or replicated, with tremendous pressure to publish before anything conclusive can be said, in order to get the next stage of funding. The health/nutrition/fitness industries are particularly prone to junk science. So for me, when confronted with two contradictory models, neither of which I have sufficient training to judge independently, I do the easiest thing, I go with the pros and ignore the gurus. The proof is in the pudding.

    I'm not saying Maffetone is wrong or debating his model. I'm not qualified. And I'm not trying to dissuade you or anyone else from using his model in their training. I'm just saying the guys winning races appear to be ignoring it, and so I feel I can safely ignore it too. If Maffetone puts out a marathon winner who bests their times by 10-15 minutes, as he claims is possible, or even just 3-4, then I will happily change my views, if not my training, since, as has already been stated, I doubt any of this really matters for a plodding recreationalist like me.
     
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  10. Sid

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    I'm not worried about which elite coach or athlete says whatever. I'm not an elite runner. I don't plan to run marathons. What I'm doing now feels pretty good, and I'm continuing to improve. That's all that counts to me. :D
     
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  11. Bare Lee

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    Well, let's remember that this thread began with claims about what elite runners should be doing to run faster marathons.

    And just to be clear: my motto 'go with the pros' isn't meant as an invitation to imitate professional athletes. We don't have the time, genetics, support staff, or youth (in my case at least) for that. What I try to do is translate their philosophies, principles, and protocols to suit my own abilities and goals, as an evolving practice. It believe this is more efficacious than both blind experimentation and "magic pill"-type guru-ism, although the latter approaches can work well for many people too, I agree. ;)

    From my interactions with you, I believe this is more or less your approach as well, but with more of a leaning towards the findings of professional researchers than trainers, which removes the pragmatic filter somewhat however.
     
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  12. Barefoot TJ

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    And remember... This thread also began with claims that those same elite runners will be in their 30s. So there's still hope for you too, old man!
     
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  13. Barefoot TJ

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    Teasing you about hope for you, not the old man part! Ha!
     
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  14. Sid

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    Actually, I have more of an n=1 approach when it comes to exercise. Research is a great starting point, but that's all it is. Research produces general recommendations for populations. These guidelines are not very specific.
    http://www.health.gov/paguidelines/guidelines/summary.aspx

    Overall, research does very little for individuals, beyond providing a base on which to build a foundation.

    What I do, might be similar to what you do with strength training, trial and error. I try various things until I find something that works. Then I read articles to provide further guidance.

    Good coaches and trainers evaluate individual needs and provide feedback. I didn't pay hundreds of dollars for swim lessons to be a champion. I did so for the customized feedback and suggestions. Now, that I have basic swim skills, I'm doing trial and error for refinement.

    Any one who purports to write a book to create elite athletes is just being preposterous. The same would follow for art or music or surgery. :D
     
  15. Barefoot TJ

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    Whether Sid likes it or not, he is our in-house librarian. This is just one example of that. ;)
     
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  16. Bare Lee

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    Tru dat, and trainers who work with pros/elite athletes with superior genetics may erroneously come to believe that success has come from their methods, rather than the athlete's inherent ability. Rippetoe has recently made this point in a T-nation article: http://www.t-nation.com/training/cu...eekly_dose-140907&utm_content=title_article_3

    I think the authors I've read have claimed, however, that their training protocols allow already elite athletes to reach their full potential. It is my belief that these same protocols, once properly translated, can allow us recreationalists to better achieve our potential as well. Of course, not achieving one's potential and just enjoying exercise for its own sake is a perfectly legitimate approach as well.

    Rippetoe makes this useful distinction, between training, on the one hand, which is developing one's potential to achieve some goal, and exercise, on the other, which is enjoying physical activity for its own sake and/or for its inherent health benefits. In the past, I've just exercised, but these days I find myself training lackadaisically towards a few modest goals in st and running. It's only in the context of training that reading up on elite protocols or cutting-edge research really matters.

    I don't find research as useful as you do, just because it's so time-consuming trying to figure out if the methodology was valid, but I agree with the general idea of using others' ideas as guidelines rather than scripture when applying them, through trail and error, to our own routines.
    Of course TJ, I'll be in my 30s for many decades to come!
     
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  17. DNEchris

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    I keep wondering how my kids got to be older than me!
     
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  18. Bare Lee

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    I've celebrated my 21st birthday so many times now that I've lost count!
     
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  19. Sid

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    I'm not certain that all master level skills can be translated for recreationalists. As an example from music, most novice horn players know to use the Bb side of the horn when playing above treble C. However, very few novice horn players know to use the alternate fingerings (on either side of the horn) for challenging passages. Novices aren't playing advanced pieces, so there is no need to learn the alternate fingerings.

    My father was a mathematician. When I was a child, I would flip through some of his advanced texts, thinking that one day, I too would understand the complex formulas. Now I know that will never happen, because I never studied graduate level mathematics. Advanced mathematics is not something that can be translated for novices. The same applies for other master level skills. I suspect elite running is one of them.
     
  20. Bare Lee

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    We're saying the same thing. For example, if an elite trainer says to run 80% aerobic, and 20% tempo/intervals, but you know that elite runners run 100-120mpw, then you probably have to adjust (translate) the formula to a recreationalist's 10-30mpw. With lower mileage and thus greater recovery time, maybe up to half or more could be tempo/intervals, if that's what you're into.

    Same with lifting. Bodybuilders, powerlifters, and weightlifters have made a science out of strength and hypertrophy, but we still have to translate their protocols into a recreationalist's desire for basic strength. Higher rep protocols for hypertrophy, for example, are unnecessary and may add unwanted mass, especially if you're a runner too. Similarly, the wider grips and stances of powerlifters allow them to lift more weight, but put their joints and muscles in mechanically disadvantageous positions, so there may be long-term health consequences. A recreationalist may prefer to lift lower weights with medium grips and stances, since numbers don't mean anything in and of themselves to us. This will put the joints and muscles in mechanically advantageous positions, which is conducive to long-term health.
     
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