Optimal strength training for runners

[NickW]

I wish I could get back into martial arts. Afraid with my back fusion I would break something or hurt myself. Eventually when I get a real house (stuck in our condo thanks to the market crashing and prices are still dropping for condos. Lost well over 50% on the condo already...) I plan on getting a heavy bag and speed bag so I can get back to doing some kick boxing training.

 

[Abide]

Gordon Piries Laws of Running
1 - Running with correct technique (even in prepared bare feet), on any surface, is injury free.
2 - Running equals springing through the air, landing elastically on the forefoot with a flexed knee (thus producing quiet feet). On landing, the foot should be directly below thebody. (Walking is landing on the heels with a straight leg).
3 - Any and all additions to the body damage running skill.
4 - Quality beats quantity; the speed at which you practice the most will be your best speed.
5 - Walking damages running.
6 - The correct running tempo for human beings is between three and five steps per second.
7 - Arm power is directly proportional to leg power.
8 - Good posture is critical to running. (Don't lean forwards!).
9 - Speed kills endurance; endurance kills speed.
10 - Each individual can only execute one “Program” at any one time; an individual can be identified by his or her idiosyncrasies (i.e. “Program”). An individual can change hisor her “Program” only by a determined, educational effort; each individual's “Program” degenerates unless it is controlled constantly.
11 - Static stretching exercises cause injuries!
12 - Running equals being out of breath, so breathing through the mouth is obligatory (hence the nickname “Puff Puff Pirie”).

Just plugging this here so I don't forget. I was hoping to tie this together with the strength plans, any other running laws that should or should not be included?

 

[Bare Lee]

Gordon Piries Laws of Running

I agree with some of the points, but not all.

1 - Running with correct technique (even in prepared bare feet), on any surface, is injury free.

Sudden jumps in distance or pace can lead to injury, no matter how good your technique.

3 - Any and all additions to the body damage running skill.

No sure what this means

5 - Walking damages running.

I think they're nice complements.

6 - The correct running tempo for human beings is between three and five steps per second.

Depends on pace

8 - Good posture is critical to running. (Don't lean forwards!).

Critical for everything really.

9 - Speed kills endurance; endurance kills speed.

That's not what I've read.

10 - Each individual can only execute one “Program” at any one time; an individual can be identified by his or her idiosyncrasies (i.e. “Program”). An individual can change hisor her “Program” only by a determined, educational effort; each individual's “Program” degenerates unless it is controlled constantly.

No idea what this means.

11 - Static stretching exercises cause injuries!

I think the evidence is inconclusive. Some argue the opposite, although it can reduce performance.

12 - Running equals being out of breath, so breathing through the mouth is obligatory (hence the nickname “Puff Puff Pirie”).

Depends on pace.

 

[DNEchris]

Gordon Pirie's 'laws' have worked for me for the last 3+ years!

 

[Bare Lee]

Gordon Pirie's 'laws' have worked for me for the last 3+ years!

So you don't walk?

 

[DNEchris]

So you don't walk?

I can only wonder what would happen if I ran everywhere!

 

[Bare Lee]

I was hoping to tie this together with the strength plans

Dude, that guy was running in the 50s. There's been a lot of revision in the meantime, especially in the last 10-15 years.

 

[DNEchris]

Dude, that guy was running in the 50s. There's been a lot of revision in the meantime, especially in the last 10-15 years.

His methods still work for us Neanderthals!

 

[Abide]

Dude, that guy was running in the 50s. There's been a lot of revision in the meantime, especially in the last 10-15 years.

Yeah I know but his laws are just a building block, I was thinking more of framework to rate/build strength programs for running, such as

1. Injury Prevention (1)
2. Force production / Running efficiency (combining 2 & 6)
3. Weight management (3)
4. Excercise selection - posture corrective excercise & arm swing excercises (7 & 8)
5. Programming (10)

Does that make sense? This way I can try out a few and hopefully get some measurable data between programs.

 

[Bare Lee]

Yeah I know but his laws are just a building block, I was thinking more of framework to rate/build strength programs for running, such as

1. Injury Prevention (1)

Here, here.

2. Force production / Running efficiency (combining 2 & 6)

A high cadence at lower paces reduces force application. Pirie was running 5 mm or less, right? One expects three steps per second or more at that speed, with good force application.

One of the main benefits of speed work, supposedly, is that it improves running economy.

3. Weight management (3)

OK, that's what he means by additions to the body. I thought he meant prostheses or shoes. Yeah, I really need to lose another 15-20. I can see the belly when I squat. Since the MCL injury and my reduced running, I've been holding steady at around 212. I was down to 209 at one point, and close to 206 one strange morning. I feel a lot better now than I did at 245, and will feel even better at 190 or 195, fer sure. I know it will improve my running.

4. Exercise selection - posture corrective exercise & arm swing exercises (7 & 8)

Maybe you should try that exercise Willie does for the arms. If you have some other one's in mind, I'd appreciate hearing about them. One thing I've noticed is that my shoulder raises and swings with dumbbells seem to help a bit.

What sort of posture corrective exercises are you think of? You already do yoga, right?

5. Programming (10)

Please elaborate a bit if you have time.

Does that make sense? This way I can try out a few and hopefully get some measurable data between programs.

Yeah, it will be interesting to compare notes in six months' time.

Hey, thanks again for the squat-talk. I'm still doing them at relatively low weights, but I can see how they'll be beneficial to my running. It will help to have more powerful legs to improve my running economy but also to support my knee joints as they carry my sprinter's body for longer distances.

 

[Bare Lee]

His methods still work for us Neanderthals!

I think of you more as an advanced species!

 

[Abide]

5. Programming (10)

Please elaborate a bit if you have time.

My thought was to put something together that is a more symbiotic and less stressful that can illicit better gains in strength, speed and endurance. I haven't really been gaining much strength over the last year with this method and thinking of trying a new method vs. 5/3/1 + running. I have been reading some about periodization so I'm trying think of how I can make a program centered around periodization to highlight the three charateristics above. While focusing on one characteristic at a time I am hoping to accomplish two things, to push through plateaus and to give some off time to let the body rest between intense cycles. My initial thought was this:

Wave 1 - Endurance - 3-4 weeks
2-3 sessions 90+ minutes + running slow pace - possibly doubles
1 speed day lower volume such as 3 x 400m
2 heavy lifting sessions - minor assistance work - 90% of max

Wave 2 - Strength - 3 weeks
1 long run 120+ minutes slow pace
1 speed day
1-2 recovery runs
4 heavy lifting session - assistance work - 90%+ of max

Wave 3 - Speed - 2 weeks
2-3 sessions speed work - varying distance
1 long run - 90+ minutes
2 dynamic effort days - assistance as conditioning - calisthenics
1 heavy day - 90% of max

Then take a week off, test maxes and repeat

 

[Abide]

Triathletes are exceptional athletes, no doubt. I think the most well-balanced athletes are decathletes. They need to balance speed, strength, agility, body control, and endurance. There are a lot of endurance events and many now that require strength, such as CrossFit, but I can't think of any that really test the agility, skill, and body control required for hurdles, discus, high jump, and pole vault.

I've always been fascinated by decathaletes they are exceptionally strong too.

Good obstacle racers also have a lot of these traits, although they can focus more on body weight excercises than decathaletes can.

 

[Bare Lee]

My thought was to put something together that is a more symbiotic and less stressful that can illicit better gains in strength, speed and endurance. I haven't really been gaining much strength over the last year with this method and thinking of trying a new method vs. 5/3/1 + running. I have been reading some about periodization so I'm trying think of how I can make a program centered around periodization to highlight the three charateristics above. While focusing on one characteristic at a time I am hoping to accomplish two things, to push through plateaus and to give some off time to let the body rest between intense cycles.

It's an intriguing idea, especially if you feel like you've plateaued. It could be good to shake things up. It'd be interesting to follow you through this plan if you decided to go through with it. My karate training was periodized into four-month 'seasons', and it seemed like a good way to train, with different intensities and training focuses distributed throughout each season--fundamentals, drills, kata ("forms"), and sparing, with a test and then a week's break at the end of each season or period. Also, when I traveled by bike there were stretches when I'd do a lot of mountain passes, or long rides through the plains or deserts, or sections of really bad roads--mud or rocks, and it seems like that intensity would give my overall fitness a little spurt. And then just recently after the MCL injury I did some back-to-back weight training days for a few weeks and I noticed some benefit.

So I think it could work, just make sure you don't over-train during any one component and risk injury. Me, well, I'm still waiting to fully implement the weekly routine I showed you a month or two ago. This week I've been getting good pumps on the weights, but of course the running isn't doing so well. Hopefully I'll have a good track session later. And I'm a long ways from plateauing, so no real reason to think about doing some else. Your kind of periodization might be good for me in a year or two, once I've established a base-level fitness in running and weights. But at that point I might be more likely to introduce some cross-training.

​

I've always been fascinated by decathaletes they are exceptionally strong too.

I hear that, I grew up when Bruce Jenner's face was planted on Wheaties boxes everywhere.

 

[Abide]

3. Weight management (3)

OK, that's what he means by additions to the body. I thought he meant prostheses or shoes. Yeah, I really need to lose another 15-20. I can see the belly when I squat. Since the MCL injury and my reduced running, I've been holding steady at around 212. I was down to 209 at one point, and close to 206 one strange morning. I feel a lot better now than I did at 245, and will feel even better at 190 or 195, fer sure. I know it will improve my running.

I'm still trying to get down some weight too, I keep thinking somewhere in the 170s might be pretty optimal for me. Whenever I get down to the low 180s it feels great running and doing pull ups. I also suspect this may be important in preventing injuries.

4. Exercise selection - posture corrective exercise & arm swing exercises (7 & 8)

Maybe you should try that exercise Willie does for the arms. If you have some other one's in mind, I'd appreciate hearing about them. One thing I've noticed is that my shoulder raises and swings with dumbbells seem to help a bit.

What sort of posture corrective exercises are you think of? You already do yoga, right?

Swings are a good idea, I was thinking db bench, more upper back rows to work the traps and lats a little more, I am also thinking of shoulder raises, I've noticed after an hour of running and holding a handheld my shoulders get exhausted.

As for posture I was thinking of focusing 3-4 days a week on a trunk circuit. It seems like from every source a strong trunk goes far for running and lifting. Things as simple as the planks, ab wheel, back extensions, waiter walks, suitcase carries, leg raises, bascially excercises focused more on posture stability. Also working traps and shoulders shoudl help with the long run upper body posture. I was hoping to pick certain excercises that were beneficial to running and really focus on those, and if you break all the parts down it seems like running really works the entire body.

Hey, thanks again for the squat-talk. I'm still doing them at relatively low weights, but I can see how they'll be beneficial to my running. It will help to have more powerful legs to improve my running economy but also to support my knee joints as they carry my sprinter's body for longer distances.

Cool, I am liking doing more squatting volume it really helps get me comfortable with them. I do have one caveat but I'll have to talk about it later. Its related to the comment above about focusing more on running and concentrics vs. eccentrics to be more compatible with running and deadlifts might be a better option than squats... for recovery anyways. I'm not sure though.

 

[Bare Lee]

I also suspect this may be important in preventing injuries.

Yep, agreed.

Swings are a good idea, I was thinking db bench, more upper back rows to work the traps and lats a little more, I am also thinking of shoulder raises, I've noticed after an hour of running and holding a handheld my shoulders get exhausted.

Yah, I love the bent-over rows, both with the lat blaster and with dumbbells. After watching that video you linked to with the guy doing the 225 bent-over db rows, I've modified my form a bit. It's not completely straight as that guy's was, but it's less arched now than I had been taught to do them. It feels more natural this way, my form is smoother, and I can do more weight. Before, my bent-over db rows always felt awkward, I could never get a good feel for them. I do those on my Back ST day. I also think I'm benefiting from having separated out a bunch of shoulder and lat exercises from my back and chest days. I mainly did it to focus on strengthening a weak shoulder joint, but I think it's a good way to go anyway. I used to alternate between back days and chest days for weights, but now it's front, back, top, and bottom, with some of the back stuff repeated on the bottom day, like deadlifts and squats, now that I'm making a push to increase hip, butt, and upper leg strength to support my knees better. I've enclosed yet another revised version of my routine just in case it's of interest. The exercise I repeat on the bottom day are in bold on the back day.

As for posture I was thinking of focusing 3-4 days a week on a trunk circuit. It seems like from every source a strong trunk goes far for running and lifting. Things as simple as the planks, ab wheel, back extensions, waiter walks, suitcase carries, leg raises, bascially excercises focused more on posture stability. Also working traps and shoulders shoudl help with the long run upper body posture. I was hoping to pick certain excercises that were beneficial to running and really focus on those, and if you break all the parts down it seems like running really works the entire body.

I love the ab wheel. That thing is a bitch. I haven't had much success with plank stuff though, although I do a few TRX things. And I tried some physio ball stuff after watching a video that Scedastic posted, but I dunno. I think I'll just stick to generally strengthening my back and abs and obliques with free weights, ankle weights, and body weight exercises.

Cool, I am liking doing more squatting volume it really helps get me comfortable with them. I do have one caveat but I'll have to talk about it later. Its related to the comment above about focusing more on running and concentrics vs. eccentrics to be more compatible with running and deadlifts might be a better option than squats... for recovery anyways. I'm not sure though.

Well, I've always favored deadlifts over squats, but squats are great for the quads, and those support the knee, so it seems like doing more squats will help me prevent ITBS. Plus, now that I've read that squats aren't necessarily bad for your knees, thanks to you, my prejudice against them has lifted and I'm getting into the challenge. I should be up to BW squats fairly soon if my MCL continues to feel fine. Still taking it slow though. I'd feel a lot dumber hurting myself lifting than running because I don't have any real goals for strength, although I do enjoy improving and feeling somewhat strong again. Plus, I don't think I'll get anywhere near single rep max lifts for either the deadlifts or squats. I'll try to keep it in the safe 2-5 rep range.

 

[Abide]

Some more links haven't had a chance to read these yet. Looked interesting though.

http://articles.elitefts.com/training-articles/being-human-part-1/
http://articles.elitefts.com/training-articles/being-human-part-2-the-kenyan-story/
http://articles.elitefts.com/training-articles/being-human-part-iii-pygmy-speed/
http://articles.elitefts.com/training-articles/being-human-part-iv-masters-of-sprint/

 

[Abide]

Lee you still plugging away at your routine?

 

[Bare Lee]

Lee you still plugging away at your routine?

Yah, pretty much. Although the last month or two have been sporadic as I fight a persistent viral bug. I don't sleep enough to shake it.

But I continue to modify the routine too:

1.) I've taken out all the mobility stuff as part of each weight workout and now try to do at least a bit of it every day, to keep the legs loose, especially before runs. This seems to help the ITB strain quite a bit.

2.) This week I'm also experimenting with running a bit every day, rather than strictly every other day, also in an effort to keep the legs loose. This also seems to be helping but it's too early to tell, as I've only run consecutive days since Saturday.

3.) I've also reordered some of the exercises so that the transition from one to the next takes the least amount of time. For example, instead of putting all the exercises that target triceps together, I might put one triceps exercise right after another non-triceps exercise that utilizes about the same weight on the cables, so that I don't have to monkey with changing weights as much.

4.) I've also cut a few exercises that were too much hassle to set up, or didn't seem to give me much benefit.

5.) Still, the overall structure of front, back, top, and bottom foci has been maintained, although I rarely get around to the bottom routine, as it's scheduled for the seventh day of the weekly routine, and something almost always comes up to make me shift one of the higher priority workouts or runs into that day to make up for a missed day earlier in the week. I haven't done any plyo stuff for 6-8 weeks now, for example.

6.) Finally, I switched my lower body st workout to the end of the week, and my hypothetical long run (still working up to it--I'm being super cautious) two days later, as I found my legs always felt a bit tired the day following the lower body st day, albeit looser. So the revised (idealized) schedule is something like this.

Sun: Macro Run (LSD) & Mobility/Stretching

Mon: Front ST (chest & upper arm) & Micro Run (.3 - 1 mile)

Tu: Meso Run (tempo or cruise intervals) & Mobility/Stretching

Wed: Top ST (lats, shoulders, neck, forearm) & Micro Run (.3 - 1 mile)

Th: Meso Run (Intervals/Fartleks) & Mobility/Stretching

Fri: Back ST (lower back, glutes, quads, hammies) & Micro Run (.3 - 1 mile)

Sat: Rest or Bottom ST & Micro run (.3 - 1 mile) & Mobility/Stretching

 

[Abide]

Cool glad to hear your still banging away. I think I found a magic machine for soreness, basically it's vibrational massage via an electric sander. It's awesome I've been using it right after long runs when I feel like a gimpy old man and it immediately makes everything better. I'm not sure if it is good for you but for minor aches and pains, and TOFP it works amazingly well. You can also massage tendons, specifically the achilles.

Sickness and life have been an issue for me as well. I've pretty much broken up my routine to running whenever I have energy to, and then I split my lifts to legs, back and chest/shoulders. Pretty detailed I know.