Optimal strength training for runners
- Thread starter Abide
- Start date
Ha! I'm far from sold on the idea. Will have to check it out sometime at a store or gym, and then if I do go in for it, I'll get the adjustable kind Sid recommended. Most likely I'll just use my dumbells if I ever get motivated for some proper circuit training, but I'm trying to keep an open mind. I kind of do the kettlebell version of leg exercises now with my ankle weights, a.k.a. mobility exercises or 'dynamic stretching,' and like that a lot, so who knows, I may overcome my fitness conservativism and hop the kettlebell train too.
What was your experience with them?
I'll answer here, to keep the strength stuff in one thread. Out of the six movements that I listed earlier, I personally like the high pull best.
= upright row. I like those a lot too. I do it with a curling bar without the squat movement. It's how I hurt my shoulder in Mozambique using concrete in paint buckets connected with a plumbing tube, so be careful, it's easy to hurt yourself with those--build up weight very slowly. My weight set in Mozambique only had two grades, so I wasn't able to build up slowly when I started getting back into it.
I know that there are a lot of different ways to exercise the same muscles. I think it's just a matter of personal preference. I like the swinging aspect of the one handed high pull with kettlebells. My second favorite is the one handed basic swing. I tried the two handed swing but it's easy too lose your balance with that much weight.
Pretty much what the article says. I really only use mine to do some warm-up swings, the other stuff is pretty useless to me and if you have dumbells, and the swings are too light to be used as much more than a warmup. I have been looking into building a T handle to do heavy swings.
I've been on the trap bar bandwagon and I think that may be my next purchase.
Yah, no doubt, and I may try that with a dumbbell in a few hours. But I wasn't speaking so much to the variation on the row theme, but rather the fact that there's no standardized terminology for this stuff. That should be called a row of some kind, to my way of thinking, like one-handed full-length upright kettlebell row or something. It gets confusing when just about anything can be a pull, or a row, or a press, or a swing. It gets kind of hard to know what people are taking about.
Yah, the t-bar is super easy to make. I looked into trap bars, but they only come in Olympic gauge, and all my plates are standard.
I agree. At least with today's technology, I can provide a youtube link for the high pull.
Youtube was also helpful for figuring out why my swim instructor meant with breathing in the bow wave for the freestyle.
Actually, that version does look more like a pull or a swing-pull than a row. The YouTube video I 'pulled' up looked more like an upright row with a squat movement added in:
I agree with you. I tried a neutral grip after watching a video on youtube. Though, I quickly found out when decelerating a heavy falling weight through the legs, my wrist was more comfortable with the palm facing back. The guy in the video was about Skogg's size and had no trouble with a neutral grip.
With a kettlebell handle, there's also additional work involved in balancing the weight as it comes up, to make sure that the weight pulls straight back, rather than flopping down or flipping up, so it's a bit more of an explosive move at the top. Skogg described it akin to throwing an elbow to the face in martial arts.
The Skogg At Home Phase 1 and Phase 2 dvds arrived today. 6 workouts on each disc, divided into 2 workouts each of strength, conditioning, and power. So there are 12 workouts in all. They are workouts from his gym, so he's leading a class of 2-4 people. The video camera is set up from the front and the side.
I fast forwarded through all 12 workouts. They are solid workouts, focusing on cardio, endurance, and strength, respectively. Essentially, from what I could gather, he has sets of exercises with a 5-10 reps each, then repeats each set about 3 times. Everyone looked like they were having a good workout. In contrast to the P90X dvds, each workout is essentially a whole body workout.
The exercises weren't necessarily kettlebell only, there were some plyometrics, pushups, and regular movements that could just as easily have been done with dumbbells. In fact, some might argue that dumbbells might be preferred over kettlebells in some of the exercises, and I'd agree. Also, the videos weren't as polished, since it was him leading a real class.
On the other hand, I have no doubt that if one did 6 workouts a week, over 6 weeks, essentially doing each workout 3 times, that they would get great results.
All that being said, it's not really what I'm looking for personally. I'll add the discs to my library, and I might do a workout occasionally.
I fast forwarded through all 12 workouts. They are solid workouts, focusing on cardio, endurance, and strength, respectively. Essentially, from what I could gather, he has sets of exercises with a 5-10 reps each, then repeats each set about 3 times. Everyone looked like they were having a good workout. In contrast to the P90X dvds, each workout is essentially a whole body workout.
The exercises weren't necessarily kettlebell only, there were some plyometrics, pushups, and regular movements that could just as easily have been done with dumbbells. In fact, some might argue that dumbbells might be preferred over kettlebells in some of the exercises, and I'd agree. Also, the videos weren't as polished, since it was him leading a real class.
On the other hand, I have no doubt that if one did 6 workouts a week, over 6 weeks, essentially doing each workout 3 times, that they would get great results.
All that being said, it's not really what I'm looking for personally. I'll add the discs to my library, and I might do a workout occasionally.
I came across this link while surfing.
"Strength Training For Runners: How To Do It Right
The time has come for runners to embrace strength training. Running form specialist Jay Dicharry tells us why.
by Nick Collias Dec 18, 2012"
I've gone ahead and ordered the book, as I needed another item to get Amazon free shipping, as I was ordering Arnold's encyclopedia. I think I'm at the point where I might start looking at exercises and put together my own workout. We'll see. I had a copy of the encyclopedia a long time ago, but I believe that I gave it to my brother when I left for college.
"Strength Training For Runners: How To Do It Right
The time has come for runners to embrace strength training. Running form specialist Jay Dicharry tells us why.
by Nick Collias Dec 18, 2012"
I've gone ahead and ordered the book, as I needed another item to get Amazon free shipping, as I was ordering Arnold's encyclopedia. I think I'm at the point where I might start looking at exercises and put together my own workout. We'll see. I had a copy of the encyclopedia a long time ago, but I believe that I gave it to my brother when I left for college.
Two other books you might consider are:
"The Ultimate Guide to Weight Training for Running," by Robert Price
and
"Which Comes First, Cardio or Weights?", by Alex Hutchinson
I have both books, along with Dicharry's Anatomy for Runners, but haven't really been able to even skim them properly. I have a backlog of about 50 books related to my work to get through first.
I think you're on the right path though. Find out about all the different possibilities and then fine tune your workouts for what works best for you and, most importantly, what you enjoy most.
You talking about my homemade t-bar? It's just 3/4 plumbing tubing with a floor flange on the bottom. It's looks like this: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/tim-ferriss-superhuman-kettlebell.htm
I only swing 70 pounds.
I also have a t-bar or lat blaster:
Thanks for the suggestions! I like this excerpt from that link. I'm going to have to keep it in mind as I try new things like getting more into lifting and learning how to swim.
""Pretty quickly. I know that if Average Joe walks off the street and walks in a weight room and sees some guy at a squat rack putting up 400 pounds—well, that is sort of intimidating. They realize they are not going to walk in there and do that tomorrow. It's not going to happen.
But let's reverse the screw here and say that Average Joe walks into a running shop and sees some guy running a 10k. For some reason running just seems more accessible, easier to get into—and by nature it is. It is interesting to me that runners will just buy a pair of shoes and start running.
They think, "Oh, I just run." But if you see someone squatting 400 pounds, there is this preconception that this person has put in a lot of work to get where they are. They started low and worked their way up. That same notion gets lost in running.""
""Pretty quickly. I know that if Average Joe walks off the street and walks in a weight room and sees some guy at a squat rack putting up 400 pounds—well, that is sort of intimidating. They realize they are not going to walk in there and do that tomorrow. It's not going to happen.
But let's reverse the screw here and say that Average Joe walks into a running shop and sees some guy running a 10k. For some reason running just seems more accessible, easier to get into—and by nature it is. It is interesting to me that runners will just buy a pair of shoes and start running.
They think, "Oh, I just run." But if you see someone squatting 400 pounds, there is this preconception that this person has put in a lot of work to get where they are. They started low and worked their way up. That same notion gets lost in running.""
I liked that section too, although I'm not sure I agree with it 100%, at least for younger guys. I remember in high school our first impulse in the weight room was to see how much we could bench or lift. I'm surprised none of us got maimed. For running though, I don't recall anyone saying, hey, how far can we go? It was always, who's fastest? Although on our bikes there was a contest to see how far we could travel in a day.
I do agree that most people discover the importance of form in ST before they do in running. Even now, I resist thinking about my running form too much, but I always do when lifting. I just feel if I'm barefoot and running at a decent pace, my form will take care of itself, but I could probably benefit from paying more attention to it. It's just that I'm lazy. For lifting, I was lucky, because when I was first starting to take it seriously, my older brother and his friends were already into the Weider books and magazines, and corrected me on everything. The thing about the kettlebell stuff, and excuse me for harping on this one last time, but it goes against most of what I was taught about strength training. You want slow, controlled, deliberate movements at relatively low reps, heavier weights for maximum benefit. So as long as you approach the kettlebell stuf with the goal of conditioning or increasing your stamina, rather than your strength, you'll be OK. You're already very aware of the importance of form. The more dynamic exercises are more dangerous that way, so mastering form is even more important. blah, blah, blah ....
NickW
Guest
Lee, I have to say you may have unwittingly helped me stumble onto the answer for my weight-loss problem. I googled the book you recommended above, Which comes first, cardio or weights? What I was looking for was a book summary and I ended up coming across a couple of articles that were related that I decided to read. One of them struck home with me about a difference between my training now versus my training 4 years ago when I had lost a bunch of weight in a short period of time. Higher intensity intervals. I don't really do them much now. Before, I did them 3-4 days a week when I was training 6 days a week. Apparently higher intensity intervals burns more fat and helps you reach glucose depletion faster. My order that I do my runs vs weights is correct for my goals (fat loss) in that I run or do cardio before I do weights. Interesting food for thought for me. Gonna have to see if I can add more intervals for a couple weeks and see if that triggers some weight loss.
Yah, I've also read that higher intensity workouts boost your metabolism for a longer period afterwards. And also, the more muscle you have, the more energy you need--muscle is high-maintenance--so working out with heavier weights can also burn fat over time. I'm a bit lazy to do real HIIT training with weights--my circuits at the end of my routines are kind of lackadaisical--but I make up for it a bit with my running intervals/fartleks and tempo runs.
NickW
Guest
Ya, it's funny that one little thing like these higher intensity intervals when running may be the very thing holding me back. Back 4 years ago, in between my first and second back surgeries I had lost close to 20lbs in a month and a half to two month period. All I did at that time was a high intensity interval run 3 days a week, with 1-2 of my 3 biking days being high intensity intervals as well and then you add on the 6 days a week of circuit type training on the weights. The thing I hated from back then though was running on the treadmill like I did, but the treadmill I was able to really control my pace and intensity and duration without worrying about getting too far away from home. Maybe I need to get back to doing that and then maybe by summer I will be ready to enjoy the great outdoors in a new skinnier body...
NickW
Guest
Ok Lee, I would like your opinion, or anyone else can answer this too, for fat loss should you run before or after weights? The internet is a confusing tool as there is so much conflicting information. I've always been taught that for fat loss you do cardio first and then do weights, but I just came across a couple articles that state the opposite. They state that weight lifting uses primarily glycogen for fuel, thus depleting your glycogen stores and then doing your cardio after that burns fat. So confusing to know what is real and what is just internet garbage. I guess the reason I'd always been taught to do cardio first and then weights was that cardio only burns calories for about an hour or so after exercise where doing the anaerobic weights can actually burn calories for several hours afterwards and having burnt up a good store of glycogen by running first then the longer burn time of weights after that burns more fat. Not sure what is really true. Maybe your book tells you?
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