Optimal strength training for runners

[Abide]

You talking about my homemade t-bar? It's just 3/4 plumbing tubing with a floor flange on the bottom. It's looks like this: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/tim-ferriss-superhuman-kettlebell.htm
I only swing 70 pounds.

I also have a t-bar or lat blaster:

No I meant doing deadlifts with a standard bar, the ones I used in the past would have probably bent with 225 lbs. on them.

Since you do the landmine stuff check out this article, it seems like a good option to do heavier supported one armed rows.

http://www.benbruno.com/2013/01/great-dumbbell-row-alternative-perpendicular-landmine-rows/

 

[Abide]

I came across this link while surfing.
"Strength Training For Runners: How To Do It Right
The time has come for runners to embrace strength training. Running form specialist Jay Dicharry tells us why.
by Nick Collias Dec 18, 2012"

I've gone ahead and ordered the book, as I needed another item to get Amazon free shipping, as I was ordering Arnold's encyclopedia. I think I'm at the point where I might start looking at exercises and put together my own workout. We'll see. I had a copy of the encyclopedia a long time ago, but I believe that I gave it to my brother when I left for college.

Pretty logical - "That is the big take-home message here: If you spend time in the weight room, make it count. Let's make the things that we do specific. Being able to squat 400 pounds does not help you as a runner, but being able to maintain form with a little bit less weight, well, that actually does have a lot of carryover."

He loses me in the excercises though, clamshells?

 

[Abide]

Ok Lee, I would like your opinion, or anyone else can answer this too, for fat loss should you run before or after weights? The internet is a confusing tool as there is so much conflicting information. I've always been taught that for fat loss you do cardio first and then do weights, but I just came across a couple articles that state the opposite. They state that weight lifting uses primarily glycogen for fuel, thus depleting your glycogen stores and then doing your cardio after that burns fat. So confusing to know what is real and what is just internet garbage. I guess the reason I'd always been taught to do cardio first and then weights was that cardio only burns calories for about an hour or so after exercise where doing the anaerobic weights can actually burn calories for several hours afterwards and having burnt up a good store of glycogen by running first then the longer burn time of weights after that burns more fat. Not sure what is really true. Maybe your book tells you?

From here http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2012/01/crossfit-endurance-tabata-sprints-and.html

"#9 Interaction matters:
Endurance and strength gains fight each other a bit for adaptation. While I don’t want to get bogged down in the details, if we look at the signaling pathway for some endurance adaptations and then muscle hypertrophy which are two goals of CF and CFE, we can see that they interact and in fact impair each other in some cases. For example, doing endurance work right after strength can impair hypertrophy because the mTOR pathway(which signals hypertrophy among other things) is basically switched off with endurance work. This isn’t meant to show that they are mutually exclusive, but instead to show that when you do things matters. Sometimes a whole heck of a lot! Thus why you have to think about and plan things, not just do random hard workouts."

So what it comes down to is your goals. Do you want to run faster, get stronger or lose weight? Doing them all at once is very difficult and you may want to chip away at one goal at a time. And if you want to lose weight focus on your diet not excercise. If you want to lose fat I think it is much easier to lose weight as a whole and then regain some weight as lean body mass by lifting and eating properly vs. just trying to lose only fat.

Here is some more reading. It's been a while since I have read them but I remember the series is good.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/an-explanation-of-exercise-efficiency.html
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/re...rt-term-high-intensity-interval-training.html
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fa...val-training-getting-to-the-point-part-1.html
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fa...val-training-getting-to-the-point-part-2.html
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/stead-state-versus-intervals-finally-a-conclusion.html

 

[Bare Lee]

Maybe your book tells you?

Hutchinson seems to agree with Magness. He says you should do whichever is most important to you first, if you're going to do both in one session. A master enzyme called AMP kinase is switched on at the start of a workout for either endurance or strength and cannot be reprogrammed mid-session. Personally, if I were to do both, I would definitely do weights first and then run. I would need greater energy for the weights. But perhaps you could try weights in the morning, when your testosterone levels are highest, and then running in the afternoon, when your metabolism is highest. Or just alternate days like I do. Right now, as you know, I've been experimenting with doing micro runs after my st workouts, to keep my legs loose, but otherwise I'm a big advocate of alternating anaerobic days with aerobic days. I think you'll lose weight steadily that way. I don't agree with Abide about losing weight first. I hate dieting. For me, it's much easier to divert the calories towards muscle building and maintenance than to do without them altogether. Also, make sure to fill up on things that take time to digest, like broccoli or something, but which don't pack a whole lot of energy, like bacon or starchy carbs.

No I meant doing deadlifts with a standard bar, the ones I used in the past would have probably bent with 225 lbs. on them.

Since you do the landmine stuff check out this article, it seems like a good option to do heavier supported one armed rows.

http://www.benbruno.com/2013/01/great-dumbbell-row-alternative-perpendicular-landmine-rows/

Yah, one of my standard bars is pretty heavy-duty. It weights 25 pounds and can handle up to 325 no problem. I got it back in the early 80s I think, from an ex-70s-era Viking. Still, eventually I'd like to get a set of Olympic bars and plates.

Thanks for the link. I don't actually have the base (I didn't realize it was called a landmine--nice!). I just butt the bar up to a brick against the wall. I do one-armed rows with 60-pound dumbbells, but when I outgrow that I may switch to your suggested method, unless I need heavier dumbbells for other exercises too. Right now using the lat blaster for two-handed bent-over rows and the dumbbell for one-handed bent-over rows is enough.

 

[NickW]

Thanks Abide! I am working on losing the weight and body fat right now. I understand that I need diet as well as exercise for this. I have just struggled the last couple years losing weight and part of that is injuries, but part of that I think is because I thought the longer I worked out (ran, because running burns fat right?) meant the more fat I would burn. I think that is a common misconception. I had come to the realization a while back that I needed to do higher intensity workouts instead of the long easier workouts based on prior experience. Now I am just trying to hone that down more so that I can make better usage of my time and get the max benefit from my workouts. Eventually I will get back to working on endurance and things like that but first I need to burn off that fat. I will read through those articles you recommended over the next day or two. Thanks again!

 

[NickW]

Hutchinson seems to agree with Magness. He says you should do whichever is most important to you first, if you're going to do both in one session. A master enzyme called AMP kinase is switched on at the start of a workout for either endurance or strength and cannot be reprogrammed mid-session. Personally, if I were to do both, I would definitely do weights first and then run. I would need greater energy for the weights. But perhaps you could try weights in the morning, when your testosterone levels are highest, and then running in the afternoon, when your metabolism is highest. Or just alternate days like I do. Right now, as you know, I've been experimenting with doing micro runs after my st workouts, to keep my legs loose, but otherwise I'm a big advocate of alternating anaerobic days with aerobic days. I think you'll lose weight steadily that way. I don't agree with Abide about losing weight first. I hate dieting. For me, it's much easier to divert the calories towards muscle building and maintenance than to do without them altogether. Also, make sure to fill up on things that take time to digest, like broccoli or something, but which don't pack a whole lot of energy, like bacon or starchy carbs.

Thanks Lee. I've always heard that you get the most benefit from your workouts by doing cardio on separate days as you do your ST, but I personally have had worse luck trying to lose weight that way. Not sure why really. Maybe for weight loss this isn't true and maybe it's only in regards to building endurance or strength or whatever your goal may be. I think I am going to give the high intensity intervals a go along with doing my ST first for a little while and see how that works out for me. Maybe it will be just the change my body needs to start losing weight again. I've read a lot of literature this morning that has persuaded me to give the ST first and then cardio last routine a shot. I've also read that you should do about 10 minutes of light cardio first just to get warmed up before you do weights.

 

[Bare Lee]

Thanks Lee. I've always heard that you get the most benefit from your workouts by doing cardio on separate days as you do your ST, but I personally have had worse luck trying to lose weight that way. Not sure why really. Maybe for weight loss this isn't true and maybe it's only in regards to building endurance or strength or whatever your goal may be. I think I am going to give the high intensity intervals a go along with doing my ST first for a little while and see how that works out for me. Maybe it will be just the change my body needs to start losing weight again. I've read a lot of literature this morning that has persuaded me to give the ST first and then cardio last routine a shot. I've also read that you should do about 10 minutes of light cardio first just to get warmed up before you do weights.

Maybe you should try doing close to everything high intensity, rather than having to choose between running and st.

For running focus on fartleks or 440-intervals, for power, and tempo runs or one-mile cruise intervals, for stamina, and maybe just do one endurance-type run per week. Then for your st, do two sessions per week HIIT, and just one or two with really heavy weights, to make sure you're building calorie-soaking mass as well.

Or start off a session doing HIIT st stuff, and then go out and run sprints.

For warm-up, I always start with a heavy-weight exercise, but do it with high reps, low weight for the first five minutes or so, before beginning to add weight.

 

[Abide]

Good ideas, something else that I have done is to do a mile warm-up run,then do a hiit workout for 20 minutes and then an easy run for 20-30 minutes after. That way you are done in an hour but still have some variety.

 

[Abide]

Hutchinson seems to agree with Magness. He says you should do whichever is most important to you first, if you're going to do both in one session. A master enzyme called AMP kinase is switched on at the start of a workout for either endurance or strength and cannot be reprogrammed mid-session. Personally, if I were to do both, I would definitely do weights first and then run. I would need greater energy for the weights. But perhaps you could try weights in the morning, when your testosterone levels are highest, and then running in the afternoon, when your metabolism is highest. Or just alternate days like I do. Right now, as you know, I've been experimenting with doing micro runs after my st workouts, to keep my legs loose, but otherwise I'm a big advocate of alternating anaerobic days with aerobic days. I think you'll lose weight steadily that way. I don't agree with Abide about losing weight first. I hate dieting. For me, it's much easier to divert the calories towards muscle building and maintenance than to do without them altogether. Also, make sure to fill up on things that take time to digest, like broccoli or something, but which don't pack a whole lot of energy, like bacon or starchy carbs.
Yah, one of my standard bars is pretty heavy-duty. It weights 25 pounds and can handle up to 325 no problem. I got it back in the early 80s I think, from an ex-70s-era Viking. Still, eventually I'd like to get a set of Olympic bars and plates.
Thanks for the link. I don't actually have the base (I didn't realize it was called a landmine--nice!). I just butt the bar up to a brick against the wall. I do one-armed rows with 60-pound dumbbells, but when I outgrow that I may switch to your suggested method, unless I need heavier dumbbells for other exercises too. Right now using the lat blaster for two-handed bent-over rows and the dumbbell for one-handed bent-over rows is enough.

I don't want to agree with myself either, dieting sucks, but I have been much more successful using the cutting calories strategy vs. burn more calories. I'd agree eat a lot of low caloric density, basically vegetables, it helps keep you full. Cutting down on nuts and oils and other high fat foods is important for me too.

I do the corner trick too, I didn't realize there was such a contraption until they got one at the Y. Seems like a waste of money unless you are in a high use gym. Have you built a piece of wood or something to prevent any brick breakage?

 

[Bare Lee]

I don't want to agree with myself either, dieting sucks, but I have been much more successful using the cutting calories strategy vs. burn more calories. I'd agree eat a lot of low caloric density, basically vegetables, it helps keep you full. Cutting down on nuts and oils and other high fat foods is important for me too.

I do the corner trick too, I didn't realize there was such a contraption until they got one at the Y. Seems like a waste of money unless you are in a high use gym. Have you built a piece of wood or something to prevent any brick breakage?

Yah, I agree, I once lost 25 pounds in 5 weeks eating half rations, but it was harsh. For slower weight loss, I don't think severe dieting is necessary, at least for me. If I'm inactive, I gain weight, if I'm active I lose it, at roughly twice the rate it took me to put it on. My main weakness is I like to have a beer before dinner, right after I work out, and a glass of wine with dinner. That's a lot of useless calories right there, but hopefully, if I'm finally coming out of this six-month period of minor running & st injuries and illness, it won't matter and I'll be able to start losing weight again and make the final push towards 195-200 lbs.

The brick hasn't broken yet, but it doesn't get stressed either. I was thinking of making a little wood thing for the bar to butt up against the wall instead of the brick, a cube with two sides missing, but haven't got around to it. I just ordered some EZ Moves II pads to do some of the roll out stuff I saw on Bruno's site. A lot cheaper than the Valslides. Besides core stuff, I'm going to use them to help me get back to doing the splits again. I'm convinced a lot of my woes over the last few months are due to not being limber enough. I may also start doing burpees as a warm-up.

 

[NickW]

Along the food lines, I also read somewhere this morning that you shouldn't eat breakfast before your morning workout. Not sure if that is true or not but since my breakfasts consist of about 300-350 calories I figured what the heck and am just now eating breakfast since I just finished my workout.

 

[happysongbird]

Along the food lines, I also read somewhere this morning that you shouldn't eat breakfast before your morning workout. Not sure if that is true or not but since my breakfasts consist of about 300-350 calories I figured what the heck and am just now eating breakfast since I just finished my workout.

I've also read that eating a little something beforehand helps jump start the system into using it supplies so that you get a better workout. I find a couple of homemade chocolate chip cookies and some real fruit juice does the trick for me!

 

[Bare Lee]

I could see running on an empty stomach, but not lifting. Even then, I think it's important to 'break the fast' first thing. Generally, I like to get most of my calories in by midday (a serving of nuts, then fruits, then veggies and fruits) so my stomach is mostly empty when I go to bed, cuz that's when it's easiest for your digestive system to store fat. For dinner I just eat flesh and some cooked veggies or a salad.

 

[Sid]

I've read that total calories matters more than timing during the day. The idea is to eat whatever you body needs, whenever you need it.

As far as losing weight, I've gone with do as much as you can, for as long as you can, without injuring yourself. I like sprints, but find that I need more recovery time afterwards. So, for me it was slow and steady. Energy expenditure is both a matter of intensity and duration.

Since I'm at goal weight, I'm starting to lean more towards shorter, but more inense workouts, though I've yet to plan it all out. For some reason, I've been finding my long runs not to be as satisfying. Perhaps, my body is telling me to move on, move forward.

 

[Bare Lee]

I've read that total calories matters more than timing during the day. The idea is to eat whatever you body needs, whenever you need it.

For every study there's a counter study! But I've seen that bit about storing fat most efficiently at night in a couple of different places. And I'm pretty sure it makes a difference for me. But I agree, if you're hungry, you should eat! No point in imposing a schedule that makes you miserable or light-headed.

As far as losing weight, I've gone with do as much as you can, for as long as you can, without injuring yourself. I like sprints, but find that I need more recovery time afterwards. So, for me it was slow and steady. Energy expenditure is both a matter of intensity and duration.

While that's true, higher intensity exercise apparently gives your metabolism a boost for a longer period after the workout. Still, I prefer heavy weight workouts to HIIT. It's less mental effort for me, even though it takes more time, and I think the benefits are kind of a trade-off. For running, as you know, I like a mix of different intensities. I like to run (relatively) fast once a week, but I also really miss my long runs. This dang ITB has hopefully come to an end so I can get back to a proper mix of power, stamina, and endurance running.

Since I'm at goal weight, I'm starting to lean more towards shorter, but more intense workouts, though I've yet to plan it all out. For some reason, I've been finding my long runs not to be as satisfying. Perhaps, my body is telling me to move on, move forward.

It seems to me you kind of an all or nothing guy. Perhaps you just need constant variety, completely changing up your routine every so often, or perhaps one day you'll find a mix of activities that works for you. It's great you're willing to try something new when what you're doing starts to get stale. I guess I never get tired of weights and running.

 

[NickW]

I love that there are so many different opinions on here and for the most part we can all be civil and talk back and forth and trade ideas. There are the couple things, Maf for example, where some people get a little pissy but for the most part we can all talk rationally and explain all sides. Love that about this forum.

 

[Sid]

But I've seen that bit about storing fat most efficiently at night in a couple of different places.

I've read that although unused energy gets stored very quickly as fat overnight, it's also quick to go when one exercises the next day. That's assuming that one exercises enough to burn it off.

While that's true, higher intensity exercise apparently gives your metabolism a boost for a longer period after the workout.

Yes, yes, but a marathoner burns far more calories than any runner going a shorter distance.

It seems to me you kind of an all or nothing guy. Perhaps you just need constant variety, completely changing up your routine every so often, or perhaps one day you'll find a mix of activities that works for you. It's great you're willing to try something new when what you're doing starts to get stale. I guess I never get tired of weights and running.

Don't write me off yet, just because I didn't run this week! My legs are feeling pretty good now. It's nice to have a bit of time off and do something else. Perhaps that's the real benefit of crosstraining. My best guess is that my next run will end up at a faster pace than my previous runs. Also, keep in mind that whereas you've been active your whole life, I've been sedentary. So, now that I'm in shape, I'm able to try things that I've never been able to do before.

 

[Bare Lee]

I love that there are so many different opinions on here and for the most part we can all be civil and talk back and forth and trade ideas. There are the couple things, Maf for example, where some people get a little pissy but for the most part we can all talk rationally and explain all sides. Love that about this forum.

I agree. In fact, it's the only forum I participate on.

Speaking of losing weight and the m-word, get Hutchinson's book and turn to page 190 for a good, concise explanation of why Maf theory is flawed, and also why moderate intensity exercise is probably best overall for losing weight.

I've been paging through the book this afternoon and it's really a wonderful compendium of exercise science and training.

I've read that although unused energy gets stored very quickly as fat overnight, it's also quick to go when one exercises the next day. That's assuming that one exercises enough to burn it off.

Yes, to really work, you need to stop eating 4-5 hours before you go to sleep.

Yes, yes, but a marathoner burns far more calories than any runner going a shorter distance.

So true, another argument for moderate intensity on average. I do my intervals mostly for neuro-muscular development, not to lose weight.

Don't write me off yet, just because I didn't run this week! My legs are feeling pretty good now. It's nice to have a bit of time off and do something else. Perhaps that's the real benefit of crosstraining. My best guess is that my next run will end up at a faster pace than my previous runs. Also, keep in mind that whereas you've been active your whole life, I've been sedentary. So, now that I'm in shape, I'm able to try things that I've never been able to do before.

Yah, it's always good to recharge the batteries! OK, time for a run now, to see how my calf is doing.

 

[Sid]

He loses me in the excercises though, clamshells?

I think that he's suggesting it for the ladies. I think it's due to the shape of their hips, which are different than men's for childbearing purposes. From what I can tell by your photo and with your beard, it probably doesn't apply to you?

"Clamshells: 100 daily. Research has shown that there are fewer differences between male and female runners that most of us have been told. This being said, the one thing that has stood out is that women typically have weaker hip abduction strength. Clamshells are a great way to isolate the lateral glutes."

 

[NickW]

So, another topic to bring up (yes I know I should be studying right now) is that I read several articles that actually say that doing weights burns fat at a faster rate than cardio when you compare them minute to minute. The thing with running though is that you typically don't take a minute or two break between sets and it is a continuous effort, therefor burning more calories in a given exercise period of say an hour due to all the break time in weight lifting. Hope you all are following me there. I found that very interesting to read because I typically don't lose weight with just running. I CAN lose weight (in the past that is) with just weights, although I may put some weight on too due to muscle increase. I actually found a lot of the reading this morning very interesting and enlightening.