Optimal strength training for runners

After, a few months with weights and overdoing it a couple of weeks ago, I'm going back to P90X2 for while. After working on endurance and strength, the core work and functional fitness should help tie it together. I think it helps me to rotate actvities every so often. Sometimes, I reach a plateau in one area, and switching to something else allows me to make progress in another area. I did my one leg bodyweight workout this morning for the first time in 3 weeks. All the running seemed to have helped with balance and definition.
I'm kind of monomaniacal when it comes to following a set routine, but your cyclical approach seems healthier.
Definitely. I saw an article by a trained, powerful sprinter who had to dial it back as he got older to reduce the risk of injury. Fortunately, I am not that powerful!
I would like to do sprints too, but for the moment I working on 440, 880, and mile intervals, where it's impossible for me to go fast enough to shear something off. When I'm confident my legs can take it, I'll try 40-yard wind sprints or something, maybe this coming spring.
 
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Couldn’t agree more. I recently debated this very point a bit with Pete Kemme, when he said there’s no point in doing free weights unless you want to be a bodybuilder. Now, I think his functional fitness workouts are a great way to get a little bit of everything in in a short amount of time, but Pete doesn’t always recognize that a trade-off in quality for each fitness component is involved. If you want great agility, do agility work, if you want greater strength, do strength training. If you just want to be reasonably fit and don’t have a whole lot of time, yeah, OK, maybe do functional fitness, but I think I’d prefer tennis or basketball or soccer. There’s no perfect approach, there’s always a trade-off. Most important is to do what you enjoy, because that will keep you coming back for more, and consistency is more important than any other factor in attaining fitness.

Speaking of circuit training, in my own ST workouts, I kinda come close to a quasi circuit-training style towards the end of the workout, when I’m mainly doing core/mobility/lower weight/floor stuff with no or short breaks between sets and exercises. In the beginning of my ST workouts, I’m doing heavier weights, nice and controlled, even somewhat leisurely, but in the end I’m going through stuff pretty quickly.

If you look down on his PT training examples they are mostly set up like circuit training or even chipper style workouts. I'm not sure where his strength routines are but I would assume he programs specific ones depending on his clients. I could be misunderstanding this as he may believe that push-ups et al are strength but I am not sure. I also do almost exactly as you and usually will circuit all of my isolation and core stuff.

I am actually surprised that Pete said this, even Movnat uses weights? I agree do what you enjoy. My wife likes doing bodyweight bootcamps and hates lifting weights so Kemme fitness would be a great option for her, I'm the exact opposite.
 
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If you look down on his PT training examples they are mostly set up like circuit training or even chipper style workouts. I'm not sure where his strength routines are but I would assume he programs specific ones depending on his clients. I could be misunderstanding this as he may believe that push-ups et al are strength but I am not sure. I also do almost exactly as you and usually will circuit all of my isolation and core stuff.

I am actually surprised that Pete said this, even Movnat uses weights? I agree do what you enjoy. My wife likes doing bodyweight bootcamps and hates lifting weights so Kemme fitness would be a great option for her, I'm the exact opposite.
Here's the post:
http://kemmefitness.com/2012/11/07/the-future-of-functional-fitness-and-the-fitness-industry-part-i/

(my comments are at the bottom, and at the bottom of the second part of this post):
http://kemmefitness.com/2012/11/10/...nal-fitness-and-the-fitness-industry-part-ii/

and here's the quote:

"Either you are a bodybuilder, want to be a bodybuilder, or you should not be on the machines and benches!"

We came to an agreement of sorts after he posted the second part of this post a day or two later.
 
Just translate that as my intervals/speed day, my tempo/stamina day, and my long-n-steady endurance day. I guess I should be getting in another long-n-steady day, according to this recommendation, but for the time being I don’t think that’s possible. I don’t have the time and even if I did, I would wait at least six months before adding one in, to make sure I’m clear of my recent ITBS and knee problems. I am considering working in one cycling day though, just not sure how to fit it in. It would be nice to ride down and along the river on Sundays or something.

In my situation I have been tinkering with ratios. As you know this is racing season and I have roughly 1 race a month through March and then a 24 hour run later this month. Which I don't really care about, just going out to have a good time and drink some beers with Jason, Shacky and Sweeney. I'm curious as to what a good speed work (sprint/interval/tempo) to long run mix will help keep the niggles to a minimum. I am thinking possibly one speed day a week might work better with the weight training and racing that is already happening rather than two. This would include 1 - 2 longer trail runs and 1 - 2 recovery runs through the week.

Any thoughts?

BTW I agree completely with your assessment of Maff, so there is no need rehash those arguments. I simply brought it up to discuss the stealing of ideas from various plans. Granted we pretty much mutilate anything we get a hold of.
 
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In my situation I have been tinkering with ratios. As you know this is racing season and I have roughly 1 race a month through March and then a 24 hour run later this month. Which I don't really care about, just going out to have a good time and drink some beers with Jason, Shacky and Sweeney. I'm curious as to what a good speed work (sprint/interval/tempo) to long run mix will help keep the niggles to a minimum. I am thinking possibly one speed day a week might work better with the weight training and racing that is already happening rather than two. This would include 1 - 2 longer trail runs and 1 - 2 recovery runs through the week.

Any thoughts?
Eventually, when I get my pace and distance up, I would like to switch to two longer runs per week, and then have the other day alternate between my intervals and tempo runs.

One week: 90-minute run; intervals & hills; 120-minute run

Next week: 90-minute run; tempo run; 120-minute run

Or something like that. The ratio would then be about 25-30 percent speed or stamina work.

The reason I do intervals, tempo, and LSD in roughly even ratios on a weekly basis right now is because (1) I want to run faster soon, because around 8-9 mm pace my form feels considerably better, and (2), I'm not yet tough enough to run higher weekly mileage--every time I try my body rebels. Eventually, I would like to get up in the 30-35 mpw range. Right now I'm shooting for 25 mpw by spring sometime.

So in other words, yes, I would endorse your approach/ratios, since you're already good to go with longer runners and higher frequency running. I would think speed or stamina work once a week should do it for you. Especially since you do trails, which require a lot of power and stamina as it is, similar to intervals and tempo runs. If I had easy access to trails, I would be in heaven.

BTW I agree completely with your assessment of Maff, so there is no need rehash those arguments. I simply brought it up to discuss the stealing of ideas from various plans.
Yah, it's great to come across kindred spirits like and you, Sid, Nick, and others.
Granted we pretty much mutilate anything we get a hold of.
I half-understand everything I read, and then misapply it.
 
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I'm kind of monomaniacal when it comes to following a set routine, but your cyclical approach seems healthier.
Oh, I don't know that cycling workouts is healthier. I just get into something, go for it, get bored or overdo it, then move onto something else. I'm really still getting a feel for all of this.

I'm not sure where his strength routines are but I would assume he programs specific ones depending on his clients. I could be misunderstanding this as he may believe that push-ups et al are strength but I am not sure.
I think you're right. He specifically mentions presses and pull-downs, as well as logs and boats. Thanks for the great link!
 
Oh, I don't know that cycling workouts is healthier. I just get into something, go for it, get bored or overdo it, then move onto something else. I'm really still getting a feel for all of this.
I think it's healthier in the sense that the more variety you have, the less chance you have of over-training in any one component, or in risking repetitive stress injury. Probably the triathlon diet, with strength training for desert, would be the best overall fitness program, but I stink at swimming, and cycling in the city isn't much fun.
 
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Look what I found...

http://www.philmaffetone.com/strengthtrainingpart2.cfm

Not bad advice, maybe a little misdirected? However I have been wanting to put together a list of different lifting philosophies, maybe I'll get at it in a couple of days.
Yah, Willie got me to look at Maffetone's site several months ago, and I read that strength training article of his then. I think that's where I first heard that it may be bad to lift to failure.

I basically agree with him, although it's hard to see how much stone fence-building most people could sustain over the years. Like a lot of MovNat folks, he seems to fail to recognize the efficiency of free weights, and he brings up every functional fitness advocate's red herring, the bicep curl. That's Pete Kemme's favorite example too. Fact is, most basic free weight exercises are multi-joint. Even the bicep curl, if done standing up, will recruit the shoulder, forearm, and back to a significant degree.

Anyway, I think Maffetone is right about heavy weights, fewer reps, and some of the stuff you've linked to has said the same thing. I stumbled upon this approach because it requires more mental effort for me to do high reps. Basically laziness. I also don't push myself that much on the weights. I like to get a good pump, exert myself somewhat, but I don't work out to exhaustion. I'm too old for that anyway.

I think his advice could also be carried over to running. It's always when I try to push a couple of miles past my comfortable limit that this ITBS flares up. I've got to learn that when the legs start to feel strained, it's time to call it a day and walk the rest of the way home. I feel like a real wuss, but I guess it's the right thing to do. Live to fight another day, right? If I had followed this protocol, I'd already be doing 10 miles comfortably by now, instead of being stuck doing baby runs again.

And yes, a post outlining different training philosophies would be great!
 
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Probably the triathlon diet, with strength training for desert, would be the best overall fitness program
Triathletes are exceptional athletes, no doubt. I think the most well-balanced athletes are decathletes. They need to balance speed, strength, agility, body control, and endurance. There are a lot of endurance events and many now that require strength, such as CrossFit, but I can't think of any that really test the agility, skill, and body control required for hurdles, discus, high jump, and pole vault.

I stink at swimming, and cycling in the city isn't much fun.
For me, swimming and cycling will be options to explore, if I can no longer run regularly. Although I live in the burbs, it's the most dangerous city for cyclists, and I'm not going to be a jerk that cycles on sidewalks, running over pedestrians and runners. (Different story if it's a kid going to school or a person who lacks other means of transportation.) Those who cycle for exercise usually have other options than the sidewalk.

Edit: I've been resting for 3 days after all the running. (Okay, 1 leg workout yesterday, and P90X2 Core workout today, which involved a lot of legs for some reason). I was going to alternate running and P90X2 (functional fitness/core work), but I'm thinking maybe my body is craving a bit more activity on the non-running days. I'm thinking about dusting off the old Insanity: Asylum videos. They do plyometrics, so I'll get in some aerobic exercise, too. Clearly, these aren't pure strength exercises, maybe more like sports drills? Just ordered Asylum 2, which looks like it will be interesting. Either way, it's always nice to have some variety.
 
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Triathletes are exceptional athletes, no doubt. I think the most well-balanced athletes are decathletes. They need to balance speed, strength, agility, body control, and endurance. There are a lot of endurance events and many now that require strength, such as CrossFit, but I can't think of any that really test the agility, skill, and body control required for hurdles, discus, high jump, and pole vault.
Yah, you're right, but I was thinking of fitness just in terms of strength and endurance. When you throw in agility, balance, hand-eye coordination, etc., I think at that point I'd seek out pick-up games in basketball or soccer, or take up tennis, or get back into martial arts. I just can't see me throwing a discus or pole vaulting at this stage in my life . . .
 
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It's what happens when you do enough long and slow running! ;)
I know we're just giving each other sh!t here, but you must realize few of us are capable of running your 80 mpw, and your low HR 7 mm paces, while impressive for us older recreational runners, still amount to jogs for the young, skinny elite cats. If you wanted to improve significantly, you'd have to do threshold work at some point, right?
 
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I think at that point I'd seek out pick-up games in basketball or soccer, or take up tennis, or get back into martial arts. I just can't see me throwing a discus or pole vaulting at this stage in my life . . .
Ah right, practical applications are helpful too! I've always been astounded by gymnasts, but that's not going to happen for me. I never got into team sports, plus I think at a certain age, one becomes more prone to injuries. I've heard too many war stories about racquetball, and my own family apparently has some inherent weakness brought out by volleyball. I continue to be impressed by the fitness of elderly practitioners of martial arts, so maybe that's the way to go. Though, right now I'll continue to enjoy dabbling here and there.
 

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