Optimal strength training for runners

[Abide]

Reading Rippetoe, I almost regret my set of rubber hex dumbbells. I like the idea of having a real minimalist gym with just a squat rack, bench, barbells, and plates. OK, maybe a few other things, like an EZ bar, and I'm too weak to get in all my chin-up work honestly, so I need a cable station for the time being. Still, minimalism is a recurrent aesthetic theme for me, like the 'power trio' in rock, or 'construction grammar' in linguistics, and I think it may also be functionally correct for strength training, and we already know it works in barefoot running.

It's funny Rippetoe doesn't emphasize rows more, but I guess he's right, they are assistance exercises compared to the deadlift. Still, they attack the back at a different angle that probably has athletic relevance in fighting sports, like wrestling or judo, I dunno. I just want a strong back, so why leave rows out?

Good luck on getting back at it. I'm really excited now to improve my power cleans. Before I was using my arms way too much, which is why they would sometimes irritate my shoulder I think. But Rippetoe describes them as basically a weighted jump, and the arms shouldn't doing any pulling at all. After I get the power clean down, I'll probably go for the power snatch. The only problem is my garage ceiling is too low, so I may have to do them outside and scare the neighbors.

Keep me/us posted on your progress through this program. It doesn't suit my temperament (at the moment) but it's always good to compare notes. Maybe we could start a lifting reporting thread? Or just report in more regularly on this thread?

First one to 405 buys the other one a beer or a belt or some chalk . . .

Done on the contest! I started one here I was just going to edit the second post to keep it easier to find and look back at workouts.

http://thebarefootrunners.org/threads/my-training-regimen.16039/

I was thinking that exact same thing when reading your post, why does he not focus on a strong back? I guess maybe its related to simplicity and he believes with chins, power cleans and deads it gets enough work? Maybe thats why his shoulder hurts and the press isn't that important. Pull ups alone have never given me good results. So I'm gonna stick with pull ups, rows and SGHP's. I kind of like have that extra vertical pull in there and it feels better on my shoulders than upright rows.

I really think balancing the push-pull lifts in the horizantal/vertical planes of movement should be a foundation for any lifting plan. Add in consistency and increasing loads and you are pretty much done. Thats simple eh? I wouldn't worry about the gym, you may circle around and jump back into the dumbbells and cables. I miss them.

 

[Bare Lee]

You know after reading and surfing over the years the general consensus I get from runners is that deadlifts are more complimentary than squats for running. I have experienced this as well. I suspect since squats impact the quadriceps and hip flexors more it somehow effects the rebound phase in running. Maybe its related to the greater eccentric portion, which you don't have deal with while doing deadlifts or carries or running for that matter as most of the eccentric force is generated by the elasticity of your mucles and tendons. So I think squats are important for general strength and also good for flexibility but I'm not sure if max loading the squat really makes sense for runners? Also I'm pretty sure he recommends a wide stance low bar squat and that is significantly different than a more upright back squat or front squat. From what I remember his point is whatever lets you use the most weight is the best and the lower bar tends to allow heavier loads.

I wouldn't start that high, maybe 80% at most, but I am trying to figure out your day before I would recommend anything, so you work up to a max then back off stes of 3x5@85% then a 15 rep finisher?



Yeah I think thats a fair assessment. If your shoulder is hurting just double check your grip in the bench and press and keep it as narrow as you can. And I mean like actual shoulder width if possible. The loads will be lighter initially but its better than a jacked up shoulder

Your explanation of the relation between running to squats and deadlifts makes sense to me, and serves as a useful justification for ignoring Rippetoe's recommendation and just keeping the squats to once a week. Thanks!

And yes, Rippetoe recommends a wide, toes out at 30 degrees stance for the squat. One of my problems has been using a more narrow deadlift stance. It was just this last Monday that I adopted a wider, toes-out stance, and this helped a lot with my stability and hence ability to lift more safely/comfortably. I mean, in just a week or two, I've added almost 100 pounds to my squat. A little technique can go a long ways . . .

I don't know if Rippetoe recommends a low-bar squat, but he definitely warns against having the bar too high, and shows the physics involved with several great diagrams.

Yep, that's right, the new, more disciplined rep/set plan calls for me to warm up to max weight then do one to three sets of 1-2RM, then come down 80-85% to do three 'work sets' of five reps each. If I can't do five reps in the third set, then I'll reduce the weight further. If it's too easy, I'll increase, until I find a good ratio of 1RM to five-rep work-sets. On Tuesday I did my bench 1/2/1 at 225, then 5/5/5/ at 195--about 87%--and that seemed about right. The last rep of the third work-set was a challenge. For warm-up sets I tend to need about five for the big lifts, going up in 50-pound increments, but for middle weight exercises like the row, I normally just do half or 3/4 weight and then full weight for three sets, and that's it. For light weight exercises like DB curls or DB presses, I don't normally need any warm-up, and the rep range is more like 5-8.

Thanks for the grip recommendation. My bench grip isn't too wide, but I'll try taking it in a few inches to more of a true shoulder-width grip and see if that helps. And no, it's no problem coming down in weight if that helps ameliorate the shoulder issue. I have no ego wrapped up in the bench. It's already 1BW, and that's good enough for an old fart like me. I'm pretty keyed about getting my overhead press up though, so I may even consider doing that twice a week once a while and skipping the bench, especially if this helps my shoulder issue by balancing out the anterior and posterior delts more. This week my shoulder's been pretty good though. After my bench on Tuesday it felt a little sore, but I passed the electric massager all over the shoulder and upper back and this helped a lot. Do you think face pulls would also help develop the posterior delt?

Done on the contest! I started one here I was just going to edit the second post to keep it easier to find and look back at workouts.

http://thebarefootrunners.org/threads/my-training-regimen.16039/

I was thinking that exact same thing when reading your post, why does he not focus on a strong back? I guess maybe its related to simplicity and he believes with chins, power cleans and deads it gets enough work? Maybe thats why his shoulder hurts and the press isn't that important. Pull ups alone have never given me good results. So I'm gonna stick with pull ups, rows and SGHP's. I kind of like have that extra vertical pull in there and it feels better on my shoulders than upright rows.

I really think balancing the push-pull lifts in the horizantal/vertical planes of movement should be a foundation for any lifting plan. Add in consistency and increasing loads and you are pretty much done. Thats simple eh? I wouldn't worry about the gym, you may circle around and jump back into the dumbbells and cables. I miss them.

Sounds good, but I'm going to have to do my best not to let competition make me push things and get hurt. The Winter Challenge made me run in moisture a few times and I ended up with mild frostnip. I've never been serious hurt while lifting, because I never push very much, and I don't intend to start now. Still, should be fun. Does anyone want to place any side bets?

I missed that thread. I'll start posting weekly summaries. It's a good idea because I think I irritate some of the folks on the mileage thread with all my talk of st. I don't know if I'll translate to kilos though.

There's been a misunderstanding. I didn't say Rippetoe's shoulder hurts, it's mine. Rippetoe, in his book and also in the article Sid posted, says that benching too much, as in powerlifting, can hurt the shoulders. He recommends the press as a counterbalance. For Rippetoe, deadlifts are the primary back exercise, so everything else is by definition an assistance exercise, including rows. I think the only reason he doesn't include chin-ups in his basic lifts is because they aren't a barbell exercise, which is too purist for me. I like the conceptual elegance of a pure barbell program too, but you gotta allow for practical reality to have it's say too, and pulling oneself up, as in climbing a tree or rope or scaling a steep incline, is a basic athletic strength movement, and chin-ups or pull-ups or their cable equivalents are the only way to develop this in the weight room, outside of rope work of course.

He's really against upright rows by the way. He categorizes them as a stupid made-up exercise with no real-world application. Reading up lately, I've come across some others who slam upright rows too. Since that's the exercise with which I first encountered shoulder problems, I don't mind leaving them off. I already have a full plate. The high pulls are intriguing though, but I'm leaving that for sometime down the road.

And yeah, it really does seem as simple as pushing/pulling along two planes. I like to add in some twisting motions too though, to work the transverse plane a little. Those landmine arcs, or woodchoppers are great for that.

And yeah, the dumbbells have their place, and they're already needed for some of the exercises in my new weekly plan, and will be needed more in the future as I add in more variety and assistance exercises. The renegade row and tipping bird, for example, are great dumbbell exercises that really work the stabilizers or 'core' in a way no barbell exercise can. Still, aesthetically, I like the picture of a really stripped-down gym.

 

[Sid]

Lee, you seem so thorough in your worksheets and experienced in your workouts, I haven't said much thus far. Here's my thoughts.

I have dumbbells, and I'm pleased to see that one can get a decent workout with them.
www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/olympic_lifts_and_dumbbells
www.travisstoetzel.com/nobarbellolylifting/

I also find that dumbbells offer a bit more flexibility in positioning and range of motion. I found that maintaining elbows at 45 degrees to be much easier on my shoulders for bench, and similarly for press.

Movement Demo - The Dumbbell Bench Press

Before I switched my focus to swmming, I also boiled down my weight training. Essentially four movements for upper body: bench, press, row, pull down. Exercises to cover front and back of legs: squat, dead, straight leg dead.

I can appreciate that picking up a heavy object off the ground and moving it a distance of 8 ft to above one's head, utilizes the body more comprenhensively and demands a greater range of motion, than any other single exercise. So, I hope to incorporate more of this in the future.

 

[Bare Lee]

Lee, you seem so thorough in your worksheets and experienced in your workouts, I haven't said much thus far. Here's my thoughts.

I have dumbbells, and I'm pleased to see that one can get a decent workout with them.
www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/olympic_lifts_and_dumbbells
www.travisstoetzel.com/nobarbellolylifting/

I also find that dumbbells offer a bit more flexibility in positioning and range of motion. I found that maintaining elbows at 45 degrees to be much easier on my shoulders for bench, and similarly for press.

Movement Demo - The Dumbbell Bench Press

Before I switched my focus to swmming, I also boiled down my weight training. Essentially four movements for upper body: bench, press, row, pull down. Exercises to cover front and back of legs: squat, dead, straight leg dead.

I can appreciate that picking up a heavy object off the ground and moving it a distance of 8 ft to above one's head, utilizes the body more comprenhensively and demands a greater range of motion, than any other single exercise. So, I hope to incorporate more of this in the future.

Well, my spreadsheets are an attempt to solve the problem of working workouts into real life such that I can maintain some level of consistency. I've been posting them here somewhat obsessively just in case they're interesting to someone else, but also precisely for the kind of feedback you're providing here. There's nothing like reading an expert, but I think I learn the most, in terms of adapting various programs and principles to my life, by interacting with you, nonprofessional meathead guys here. The tendency of anyone proclaiming to be an expert is to take a somewhat rigid stance on their preferred program. As barefoot runners, we need to be adaptable, right?

Still, reading around the last 4-5 weeks a bit more than I have in the past, I realize I've been unduly influenced by the bodybuilding approach without realizing it. I've been thinking too much in terms of body parts/areas (i.e., "Monday is my legs day" or "Tuesday is my shoulders and arms day," and not enough in terms of basic movements. I've also been blinded by the endless variations, and every meathead site claims that their combination of exercises is the best, or this or that program will really get results. So it was a breath of fresh air when I came across the StrongLifts sites, and then re-read Abide's remark about Rippetoe. Like you and Abide, I've come to agree that recreationalists like us only need a small arsenal of basic lifts for most of our strength training needs, and Rippetoe, apparently, is a pretty well-regarded expert in this area.

I didn't mean to imply I'm forsaking dumbbells. I just meant to highlight the aesthetic simplicity of a pure barbell program. If you look at my list of assistance exercises, there are quite a few with DB, indicating 'dumbbell,' and there's a few others, like Tipping Bird, that are inherent dumbbell lifts as well. The reason most of them are assistance lifts is because of the greater instability of dumbbell exercises. You can usually do more total weight with barbells. More weight = more strength, and so the strength training exercises that make you strongest should be considered the more basic ones, but not necessarily the best ones for a specific purpose or goal other than getting strong, like getting more explosive, flexible, coordinated, etc.

So, as you mention, dumbbells have their place, for greater balance and coordination, as well as a fuller range of motion in many cases. They also afford more grip options. I like dumbbell curls, for example, because I can start with a neutral grip and finish with a supinated grip at the top of the movement. My elbows like that. I like the way they really isolated each biceps and seem to use less upper back. I also really like DB Shoulder Swings, and any kind of swing motion is close to impossible with barbells. Rippetoe also talks a little bit about the virtues of dumbbell bench presses, which were the original way to do bench presses, before the bench rack was invented. I still like those too, and have them listed as DB Flies, although I sometimes do them as straight presses if my left shoulder's acting up.

But the Starting Strength book I've just gone through by Rippetoe is specifically aimed at novices and coaches. I just ordered his more advanced book, and wouldn't be surprised if there's more dumbbell exercises there. Rippetoe's point is that you need to master the basic barbell lifts first--get them past novice level--before you begin adding in other stuff. It's kind of like in karate or music, where you do your kihon or scales, arpeggios, and inversions, respectively, before you get to do the other stuff.

And so I'm a bit skeptical of the "Olympic Lifting without the Barbell" site, and its claim that you don't need to focus on technique. It seems to me the opposite, that you should first learn technique and basic strength with barbells before working on the same or similar movements with dumbbells. Reading Rippetoe's chapter on Power Cleans, I became aware of how woeful my previous, unschooled attempts at this exercise were, how I was using my shoulders and arms too much. I think the temptation to bad technique and injury would be even greater with dumbbells, not less, for the novice, especially when done as a time-saving measure, as is suggested on that site. And frankly that guy's 25-lb squat clean looks pathetic--he's working a lot of biceps curl in there, and the legs are doing almost none of the work. He mis' well just do unweighted squat jumps and biceps curls separately. I doubt he's gaining any strength flailing about like that. Seems to me an attempt at establishing a brand that will sell to quick-fixers. TNation in general is full of pill-pushers and gimmicks. Seems to me more of a bodybuilder site than a strength athlete site, if that distinction makes sense.

 

[Sid]

Absolutely. Technique is always important. I wasn't trying to comment about the superiority of any particular strength training system, but rather that one can get a fair workout using dumbbells.

 

[Bare Lee]

Absolutely. Technique is always important. I wasn't trying to comment about the superiority of any particular strength training system, but rather that one can get a fair workout using dumbbells.

Oh yeah, and once again, I'm a firm believer in people doing whatever works for them, what keeps them coming back for more. If dumbbells or kettlebells are working for you, that's great. I guess my only real advocacy is that everyone should do some kind of strength training, but most people don't want to hear it. They think it's just for power lifters and bodybuilders.

OK, time to go work on my power cleans . . .

 

[Abide]

Good link

http://www.strengthcoach.com/Planning_the_strength_training.pdf

 

[Bare Lee]

Good link

http://www.strengthcoach.com/Planning_the_strength_training.pdf

Very nice summary, thanks!

The two charts at the bottom of page nine jibe pretty well with my experience. If my 1RM is 95% RPE, then my 5RM over three sets will be about 80% and in either case it takes about two days to recover. Last week it took three days to recover from my squats, but I really went hard at it. Like the author says, there is a trade-off in setbacks, which can impede consistently. Normally, I've very consistent in terms of being physically able to do a full routine every week. It's only the non-fitness interruptions that get in the way of fitness consistency.

Top of page 14 is basically what I've always done. I push it when I have good energy, and just coast when I don't.

Page 15: "So, instead doing 5x5 with 80%, you can do sets of 5 @ 8-9 RPE value until you hit Fatigue Stop. Sometimes it is going to be 2 sets, sometimes it is going to be 6, depending on you level, work capacity, training day (good or bad, quality of sleep, nutrition and supplementation, spending nights drinking/partying etc)."

Haha, now I'm back to where I started--just lift by feel! Thanks Abide, for sabotaging my first week of implementing the 3x5 protocol. Then he endorses reducing weight or reps as fatigue sets in. That's what I've been doing my whole life! I warm up to my 1RM, or near it if I'm lower energy, then come down, dropping weight, increasing reps, or come down more slowly, maintaining the same amount of reps. I stop when I don't want to do any more sets.

Top of 26, that's exactly what I did last week! I hit the squats and dips pretty hard, so I went medium intensity/volume on pretty much everything else.

I dunno, good article, but I guess I'm intermediate, because I've been following a lot of those principles intuitively. I guess I'm lucky never to have been indoctrinated into a strict plan.

 

[Abide]

Haha sorry about that I wish I could upload pictures but I don't seem to be able to right now?
Basically the major issue some have with linear progression is you don't gain strength in weekly increments past the beginner level, and if you add weight on a weekly basis evenutally your workset will be close to your max set.

When I say max set I basically mean the most you could do for a given amount of reps. So you could have a 5 rep max and a 1 rep max and the 5 rep max won't necessarily be 80% of your 1 rep max or vice versa. There are a lot of conversions out there that can be accurate but if you only train 5 rep sets your 5RM to 1RM ratio should naturally be higher. Not that this matters much but its one of the reasons I like to vary work sets.

However after all of this I think you should go for the 3x5 and see what happens for 8 weeks. I could imagine you would be fine lifting 305 x 5 in the deadlift in 2 months. After that I think it might be hard to maintain the weekly increases but who knows?

 

[Bare Lee]

Haha sorry about that I wish I could upload pictures but I don't seem to be able to right now?
Basically the major issue some have with linear progression is you don't gain strength in weekly increments past the beginner level, and if you add weight on a weekly basis evenutally your workset will be close to your max set.

When I say max set I basically mean the most you could do for a given amount of reps. So you could have a 5 rep max and a 1 rep max and the 5 rep max won't necessarily be 80% of your 1 rep max or vice versa. There are a lot of conversions out there that can be accurate but if you only train 5 rep sets your 5RM to 1RM ratio should naturally be higher. Not that this matters much but its one of the reasons I like to vary work sets.

However after all of this I think you should go for the 3x5 and see what happens for 8 weeks. I could imagine you would be fine lifting 305 x 5 in the deadlift in 2 months. After that I think it might be hard to maintain the weekly increases but who knows?

Thanks for the clarification. I realized what you meant as I went through that article. So I guess even 1RM or 5RM still depends on how many sets you intend to do, right?

And yah, there's a lot of possibilities. I think to improve on my bench and deadlift, I will eventually have to add in variety. My bench in particular likes to plateau at 225, but since I'm happy with that, why worry? In any case, I'm reluctant to adopt a scheme that's too complicated, because I know I won't follow through on it. That's the beauty of lifting or running by feel--you don't really have to think too much.

That said, if it's true that I've reached the intermediate level on at least a few of the main lifts, then some simple strategies to add variety without having to get out a calculator or draw up more charts would be:

1.) Just do one lift per week at 1RM, the rest reduced worksets, like 3x5 at 80%.
2.) Do a whole week of doing 1RM for all the lifts, followed by a week of reduced worksets.
3.) Do all the lifts in one workout at 1RM, then the other two weekly workouts at reduced worksets.
4.) Focus on getting the 1RM up for a particular lift, over a period of several weeks or months, while going through the other lifts at reduced worksets, for maintenance, then picking out another lift to focus on, while maintaining gains in the other lifts.

In the end, I guess it doesn't matter. I'm still making steady progress whenever I string together enough weeks of consistent lifting. I think the other Rippetoe book is due today, and I'll have a look at that, but I'm starting to burn out on thinking about this stuff. I'm pretty happy with the flow chart I've come up with; it worked pretty well last week anyway. I'll probably try your suggestion of sticking with the 3x5 plan for 8 weeks, or however many weeks it seems to work, while prioritizing getting my weak lifts up to par with my strong lifts. I do like the idea of making progress without having to do 1RM for every main lift every workout, if in fact, it will work like that for me. Still, the volume method is still a little counterintuitive for me. Seems like if you want to be strong, you have to lift heavy. Just like if you want to be fast, you have to run fast.

I guess the only real conceptual break-through I've had over the last month is the realization that a lot of the assistance lifts were taking time away from the main lifts without really adding much. I had thought they were an essential part of any training scheme, to attack 'the small muscles', or increase ROM, or something, but according to most of the experts, that role was overstated in my schemes. I don't know if I've every done full body splits before, but it seems like the way to go. In my current plan, I hit lower body once and upper body once or twice, and just one or two tried-and-true assistance lifts, each workout, and that seems like a pretty good combo, although it's taken time for me to let go of some of those assistance lifts. If I have time and energy left over or I start to stall I can mix in more variety again. In the meantime, I'll probably always feel a little guilty for leaving them out.

I think there's also a danger, as with reading up on running protocols, of taking everything at face value, when in fact this stuff is written for athletes in their primes with a fair amount of time to devote to training. We need to translate it all into our situations. For me, the exactness of all these theorizations and periodizations is probably unnecessary for my humble goal of just being reasonably fit and strong with a modicum of endurance and stamina. Especially those training plans for (elite) runners, they probably have no application to my situation. I would like to get back to some track or hill work, and tempo, now that it's warming up, but really, just running fartleks by feel every other run, plus one longish run every once in a while, is probably all I need to improve my running. Consistency is probably all a recreational runner or lifter needs for modest improvement.

Basically the major issue some have with linear progression is you don't gain strength in weekly increments past the beginner level, and if you add weight on a weekly basis evenutally your workset will be close to your max set.

Another possibility is that for a recreational/fitness guy like me, maybe plateauing at a certain strength or running level and then working out less to maintain it isn't such a bad thing? I mean, at my age, eventually, the aging process will begin taking away any gains I make anyway. Seems like I should push things a bit while I still can, but after that, why bother? Do middle-age guys need to deadlift more than 405 or run faster than 8-9mm aerobic pace? I'm pretty sure those are an attainable goals, and if I reach them, after that, I'm not sure I'll still care. Basically, I'll be entering into new territory in the next year or two, because I've never lifted consistently for more than about three years at any given time. That's about the time needed to reach intermediate level and taper off, right? Do I push for more improvement or just maintain at that point? I've never had to think about it before. A change in lifestyle took care of that for me.

 

[Abide]

Thanks for the clarification. I realized what you meant as I went through that article. So I guess even 1RM or 5RM still depends on how many sets you intend to do, right?

Yeah that could be one variable, but I like to think that if I hit a 5RM I would be pretty much fried for the rest of the workout. And the last rep would bascially be a almost failed lift. Honestly though your right it adds too much complexity, an eye bulging 1RM is more functional and then basing your working sets around that is probably best.

And yah, there's a lot of possibilities. I think to improve on my bench and deadlift, I will eventually have to add in variety. My bench in particular likes to plateau at 225, but since I'm happy with that, why worry? In any case, I'm reluctant to adopt a scheme that's too complicated, because I know I won't follow through on it. That's the beauty of lifting or running by feel--you don't really have to think too much.

That said, if it's true that I've reached the intermediate level on at least a few of the main lifts, then some simple strategies to add variety without having to get out a calculator or draw up more charts would be:

1.) Just do one lift per week at 1RM, the rest reduced worksets, like 3x5 at 80%.
2.) Do a whole week of doing 1RM for all the lifts, followed by a week of reduced worksets.
3.) Do all the lifts in one workout at 1RM, then the other two weekly workouts at reduced worksets.
4.) Focus on getting the 1RM up for a particular lift, over a period of several weeks or months, while going through the other lifts at reduced worksets, for maintenance, then picking out another lift to focus on, while maintaining gains in the other lifts.

In the end, I guess it doesn't matter. I'm still making steady progress whenever I string together enough weeks of consistent lifting. I think the other Rippetoe book is due today, and I'll have a look at that, but I'm starting to burn out on thinking about this stuff. I'm pretty happy with the flow chart I've come up with; it worked pretty well last week anyway. I'll probably try your suggestion of sticking with the 3x5 plan for 8 weeks, or however many weeks it seems to work, while prioritizing getting my weak lifts up to par with my strong lifts. I do like the idea of making progress without having to do 1RM for every main lift every workout, if in fact, it will work like that for me. Still, the volume method is still a little counterintuitive for me. Seems like if you want to be strong, you have to lift heavy. Just like if you want to be fast, you have to run fast.

Catching up lifts is probably something I need to think about too. My squat sucks and I hate doing it. I wonder if I should work at it more after talking through this. Yeah don't get stuck with paralysis by analysis. I like ot talk about it because it helps me stick to a plan and keep me motivated but if its causing too much plan hopping lets change the direction for a while and talk about what are good metrics to track progress or what kind of info would be beneficial in a workout journal.

I guess the only real conceptual break-through I've had over the last month is the realization that a lot of the assistance lifts were taking time away from the main lifts without really adding much. I had thought they were an essential part of any training scheme, to attack 'the small muscles', or increase ROM, or something, but according to most of the experts, that role was overstated in my schemes. I don't know if I've every done full body splits before, but it seems like the way to go. In my current plan, I hit lower body once and upper body once or twice, and just one or two tried-and-true assistance lifts, each workout, and that seems like a pretty good combo, although it's taken time for me to let go of some of those assistance lifts. If I have time and energy left over or I start to stall I can mix in more variety again. In the meantime, I'll probably always feel a little guilty for leaving them out..

They are fun and can be good for you. They probably also lead to better aesthetics. It's just hard to prioritize. I like that about Wendlers 5/3/1 is each 3 week cycle you switch your assistance lifts. But then you are only doing one big lift a day....

I think there's also a danger, as with reading up on running protocols, of taking everything at face value, when in fact this stuff is written for athletes in their primes with a fair amount of time to devote to training. We need to translate it all into our situations. For me, the exactness of all these theorizations and periodizations is probably unnecessary for my humble goal of just being reasonably fit and strong with a modicum of endurance and stamina. Especially those training plans for (elite) runners, they probably have no application to my situation. I would like to get back to some track or hill work, and tempo, now that it's warming up, but really, just running fartleks by feel every other run, plus one longish run every once in a while, is probably all I need to improve my running. Consistency is probably all a recreational runner or lifter needs for modest improvement.

Another possibility is that for a recreational/fitness guy like me, maybe plateauing at a certain strength or running level and then working out less to maintain it isn't such a bad thing? I mean, at my age, eventually, the aging process will begin taking away any gains I make anyway. Seems like I should push things a bit while I still can, but after that, why bother? Do middle-age guys need to deadlift more than 405 or run faster than 8-9mm aerobic pace? I'm pretty sure those are an attainable goals, and if I reach them, after that, I'm not sure I'll still care. Basically, I'll be entering into new territory in the next year or two, because I've never lifted consistently for more than about three years at any given time. That's about the time needed to reach intermediate level and taper off, right? Do I push for more improvement or just maintain at that point? I've never had to think about it before. A change in lifestyle took care of that for me.

It can be fun to push through new boundaries? Progress seems to help me with consistency. Oddly enough I have noticed that the more I lift the more consistently I run. What's interesting is I don't really care too much about becoming a better runner, but in the gym I like to improve. It could just be the benefits of running for me is just being outside enjoying nature, more meditational qualities. In the garage its more fun to chase numbers to elicit soreness and a feeling of progress. Plus you have to admit a 400lb deadlift would be pretty badass while being able to run a decent half mary.

 

[Bare Lee]

Yeah that could be one variable, but I like to think that if I hit a 5RM I would be pretty much fried for the rest of the workout. And the last rep would bascially be a almost failed lift. Honestly though your right it adds too much complexity, an eye bulging 1RM is more functional and then basing your working sets around that is probably best.

Yah, I never do a true max, it's always 90-95% effort level. The 3x5 worksets are also in that range of effort. Yesterday I was more in the 70% effort level because I wanted to make sure to get through all four exercises and get a sense of how work together. I did my squats, bench, press, and dips all within 30 minutes, which means at full sets, reps, and normal effort level, I can get through them in 45-60 minutes, which is about where I want to be. On this morning's 5K, no interfering soreness, but my upper body definitely feels less than satiated after yesterday afternoon's tepid st. Already raring to hit the deadlifts tomorrow.

Catching up lifts is probably something I need to think about too. My squat sucks and I hate doing it. I wonder if I should work at it more after talking through this. Yeah don't get stuck with paralysis by analysis. I like ot talk about it because it helps me stick to a plan and keep me motivated but if its causing too much plan hopping lets change the direction for a while and talk about what are good metrics to track progress or what kind of info would be beneficial in a workout journal.

Not sure what you mean by "catching up lifts"

So many different strength experts seem to think the squat should be the centerpiece to any st program. Rippetoe has his reasons, but the book is at home now so I can't look them up. I hated squats like you, but now I'm getting into them. I think I avoided them because they're more technically challenging. Likewise, it's going to take even more mental effort to get the power cleans right. After that, I'd like to graduate to the power snatch if I can get up the nerve to do them outside. Having a low garage ceiling really stinks. It makes doing my presses awkward as well.

I've been amazed at what a good pump squats give my upper body. I really like starting out each workout with either the squat, deadlift or, starting this week, the power clean. The lower body lifts are actually close to full-body lifts and prime the upper body nicely for the ensuing upper body stuff like presses, rows, and pulls. I think my bar position is still too high on the squats. I have Rippetoe's book in my garage, so next time I'll try to start the st workout a little earlier so I can study up a bit more as I go through the lifts.

I agree these discussions have been extremely fruitful, but really detailed programming isn't going to work for me. I like being aware of all the logics and variations though. It helps me improvise my workouts or weekly routine when I have a better grasp of the fundamental principles at play. In the end though, self-regulation or lifting by feel is probably the way to do. If I continue to follow the 3x5 protocol, it will be more of a guideline than a strict stipulation. Yesterday afternoon, for example, I avoided 1RM and just did 2-3 sets of 5 reps for each lift, but at reduced effort. Tomorrow I'll probably be tempted to do a 1RM on my deadlift, and then I'll do a lot of sets of power cleans as I try to get a better feel for the jump and elbow position. So it's all good.

When I say I'm getting a little burnt out on thinking about this stuff, it only applies to my routine. Please feel free to discuss what you're thinking about in terms of your programming. The 40-workout plan sounds intriguing, and I kind of like the idea of doing 5-6 main lifts per workout, but for me, I think 3-4 is about right. That's 10-15 minutes for each lift, which is enough time for warm-up, one or two sets of 1RM, and then 3 worksets.

I was also encouraged by the article link you posted yesterday, insofar as I seem to have been intuitively following a lot of the basic principles he outlines for intermediate lifters. Rippoetoe's other two books

• Practical Programming for Strength Training
  Mark Rippetoe
• Strong Enough? Thoughts from Thirty Years of Barbell Training
  Mark Rippetoe

Should be arriving in a few hours. I'll look them over and let you know if I find any other ideas not mentioned in that article.

They are fun and can be good for you. They probably also lead to better aesthetics. It's just hard to prioritize. I like that about Wendlers 5/3/1 is each 3 week cycle you switch your assistance lifts. But then you are only doing one big lift a day....

Yeh, I'll probably start doing something like that, once my new weekly routine is better established. Right now it's just one assistance lift per workout, but I have a bunch of alternatives listed at the bottom so I can quick look up at the chart taped on my garage door if I have extra time and energy.



But I agree with Rippetoe's principle that you should only work in assistance exercises if they contribute to the main ones. At the moment, I think that's only true of the dips. The loaded carry and landmines I do more because they attack areas not covered by the main lifts. Once the presses and power cleans have caught up to the other lifts, I'll probably go back to doing them once a week, like the other main lifts, and then have more time for other assistance lifts.

It can be fun to push through new boundaries? Progress seems to help me with consistency. Oddly enough I have noticed that the more I lift the more consistently I run. What's interesting is I don't really care too much about becoming a better runner, but in the gym I like to improve. It could just be the benefits of running for me is just being outside enjoying nature, more meditational qualities. In the garage its more fun to chase numbers to elicit soreness and a feeling of progress. Plus you have to admit a 400lb deadlift would be pretty badass while being able to run a decent half mary.

Yah, for me too, there's a really synergy between lifting and running. I know everyone has to find what works for them, but running and lifting seem fundamental to just about any fitness routine. And I agree, making progress, no matter how incremental, helps motivation and thus consistency. It's just a matter of whether we chase specific goals, or let the progress come to us. I've never really chased st benchmarks, so to speak, before, but as I've said, I've never done it consistently for more than 2-3 years at a time either. Whenever I'm traveling or doing fieldwork, I generally stop doing strength training, and it's taken a while to establish st and running as non-negotiable routines in my settled life. I think the am running and pm lifting is going to work for me though. For running, I've been going out without a Garmin since last fall, and really enjoying it. Still, I want to be faster, simply because it feels better. And having used a Garmin in the past, I know 8mm pace feels really good, but even 8:30-9mm consistent aerobic pace would be acceptable at this point. My conditioning has really fallen off since last year.

So, with all that in mind, how's this for provisional goals:

405-pound deadlift
225-pound power clean
175-pound press
24-minute 5K
Two-hour half-Mary

by the end of this year?

 

[Abide]

Not sure if you saw this, might be one of his more humorous articles.

http://www.t-nation.com/powerful-words/problem-with-exercise-science

 

[Abide]

So, with all that in mind, how's this for provisional goals:

405-pound deadlift
225-pound power clean
175-pound press
24-minute 5K
Two-hour half-Mary

by the end of this year?

I think this is attainable. These are probably closer to advanced levels for a combo athlete. I'd be interested where those times would fall from a sample of runners.

I just used this weight and age adjuster to see how my fat ass would compare if I ran a 2 hr half. It would be like a 143lb 25 year old running a 1:40. And a 24 min 5 k is comparable to a 20:19 finish.

http://academic.udayton.edu/paulvanderburgh/weight_age_grading_calculator.htm

So yeah definitely on the higher end of the spectrum. But then on the weight end you would have more of an advantage so I guess it all evens out?

And catching up my squat to be comparable to my deadlift, bench and press levels. Or at least more than my bench...

 

[Abide]

Are you buying those on a kindle or the print version?

BTW I technically bastardized his 40 day plan so now it will be more like 40/2 plan or a 20x2 plan. Anyway its going alright, its a quick 30 minutes in and out and I break a pretty good sweat doing it. I may consider testing a max deadlift right after to see where I stand and where to go from there.

 

[Bare Lee]

I think this is attainable. These are probably closer to advanced levels for a combo athlete. I'd be interested where those times would fall from a sample of runners.

I just used this weight and age adjuster to see how my fat ass would compare if I ran a 2 hr half. It would be like a 143lb 25 year old running a 1:40. And a 24 min 5 k is comparable to a 20:19 finish.

http://academic.udayton.edu/paulvanderburgh/weight_age_grading_calculator.htm

So yeah definitely on the higher end of the spectrum. But then on the weight end you would have more of an advantage so I guess it all evens out?

And catching up my squat to be comparable to my deadlift, bench and press levels. Or at least more than my bench...

That calculator makes me feel a lot faster, thanks.

Yep, you should hit the squat. You'll probably make rapid progress like I did, if you already got a decent deadlift and bench. At least now I can say I squat more than I bench. It doesn't make sense for the pecs and tris to be stronger than the glutes, hammies, and quads. And in fact, I think most of my progress was technical/neuromuscular, not real strength gains. I think I finally hit my true 1RM last week, although a little better technique, like better bar position, might get that to go a little higher still before I'll need to rely on real strength gains for progress.

Funny stuff from Rippetoe, he nailed the academic process on the head. I just remind myself that 90% of anything is crap, and try to focus on the good stuff.

I did explore some of the 'functional' fitness/suspension strap/Swiss ball stuff last year and the year before, just as I looked into MAF, Pose, Ken Bob, etc. for running. But nothing's really changed. If you want to run fast, run fast, if you want to be strong, lift heavy. The fundamentals don't change because the human body hasn't changed. In general, I ignore the gurus and academics and go with the pros, where big money's at stake. Like Magness says, the history of running protocols is basically just a debate about what ratio of aerobic to tempo/interval training one should do. For strength training, as we've been discussing, it's mostly a debate about sets/reps and splits, but everyone agrees pretty much about what the fundamental movements are: squat, deadlift, bench, press, and, for some, also rows and chin-ups. In sum, running is just three different paces, ST is six different force/direction pairings, everything else is details about programming.

Still, those fitness scientists probably get to work with better smelling subjects, judging from the pics, than Rippetoe does.

Are you buying those on a kindle or the print version?

BTW I technically bastardized his 40 day plan so now it will be more like 40/2 plan or a 20x2 plan. Anyway its going alright, its a quick 30 minutes in and out and I break a pretty good sweat doing it. I may consider testing a max deadlift right after to see where I stand and where to go from there.

I got the print versions, so I can keep them in the garage. I know I gotta go kindle eventually, but most of my reading is out-of-print books I get used online.

30-40 minutes seems like a pretty good time. An hour starts to feel long.

After feeling pretty good about this morning's 5K, I may forgo the idea of eventually getting in three longer runs per week, Tu-Th-Sa, like I used to, and just get in two, Wed-Sa, and do 5Ks M-Tu--Th-F. If I do that, then I could conceivably do ST four days a week instead of three, with each workout a little shorter and based on a simple lower body / upper body pairing, with a little more room for assistance exercises if I'm up for it. Shorter workouts are also easier to reschedule if something comes up. Something like this:



I'm sitting here feeling cheated after going easy yesterday. Also, last week I ended up lifting nearly everyday, as stuff keep coming up before my workouts, and I do like slightly greater frequency I think. The running, lifting and plyo/mobility would still average out to just an hour or so per day, with up to two hours on Saturday for my long run.

Do you prefer three or four days of st per week?

In any case, I really feel like doing deadlifts later today, but maybe I'll just work on the cleans and maybe a few curls and tri extensions.

 

[DNEchris]

That calculator makes me feel a lot faster, thanks.

Me too.

I just took 15 minutes off my half-marathon and didn't even break a sweat!

 

[Abide]

Me too.

I just took 15 minutes off my half-marathon and didn't even break a sweat!

The internet is amazing!

 

[Abide]

I like to lift more frequently 5-6 days a week, but am really going to focus on only doing 4 days a week for a while. For some reason I identify rest as being lazy and its difficult for me, like today, to force myself to rest and not lift. Especially when you have the time and motivation. Adequate recovery is another constant in the strength/endurance lore that I have never really paid much attention to. There are just too many inconsitencies with life and I like to take advantage of the time when I do have it. See I am arguing with myself now. Right now I think I am leaning towards this schedule and then at lunch I'll try to do about 20 minutes of yoga.

Mon - Lift & Bike commute
Tue - Run & Lift
Wed - Bike commute
Thur - Run & Lift
Fri - Lift & Bike commute
Sat - Long Run or Mountain Bike
Sun - Rest or Mounatin Bike

Anyway I think you do need to be careful if you are doing ancillary lifts on an off day to make sure they don't take anything away from the important lifts the next day. Maybe something like lightweight high reps would be better than moderate weights and moderate reps?

Rippetoe's clientelle is technically his fault, he encouraged gomad. Does he focus primarily on the low bar wide stance back squat in his book?
I would experiment a little and find out what is most comfortable for the squat. I personally prefer a higher bar position, but I do make sure to make a ledge with my traps first. I always felt like I had to lean too far forward when I tried a lower bar squat. It seemed more like a good morning than a squat with that position.

 

[Bare Lee]

I like to lift more frequently 5-6 days a week, but am really going to focus on only doing 4 days a week for a while. For some reason I identify rest as being lazy and its difficult for me, like today, to force myself to rest and not lift. Especially when you have the time and motivation. Adequate recovery is another constant in the strength/endurance lore that I have never really paid much attention to. There are just too many inconsitencies with life and I like to take advantage of the time when I do have it. See I am arguing with myself now. Right now I think I am leaning towards this schedule and then at lunch I'll try to do about 20 minutes of yoga.

Mon - Lift & Bike commute
Tue - Run & Lift
Wed - Bike commute
Thur - Run & Lift
Fri - Lift & Bike commute
Sat - Long Run or Mountain Bike
Sun - Rest or Mounatin Bike

Anyway I think you do need to be careful if you are doing ancillary lifts on an off day to make sure they don't take anything away from the important lifts the next day. Maybe something like lightweight high reps would be better than moderate weights and moderate reps?

Rippetoe's clientelle is technically his fault, he encouraged gomad. Does he focus primarily on the low bar wide stance back squat in his book?
I would experiment a little and find out what is most comfortable for the squat. I personally prefer a higher bar position, but I do make sure to make a ledge with my traps first. I always felt like I had to lean too far forward when I tried a lower bar squat. It seemed more like a good morning than a squat with that position.

Yah, for a while I was lifting 5-6 days a week, and didn't have any problem with it. I used to follow the 48-hour recovery rule religiously, alternating one day running with one day lifting, but I've found, following DNEChris's fine example, that I can run everyday, and now I've become convinced you can probably lift most days too, as long as you allow for self-regulation to tell you when to go easy and when to go hard.

I skimmed through Rippetoe's book "Practical Programming for Strength Training" yesterday afternoon. I'll try to read a bit more later. He goes through all the different training protocols and the rationals behind them, but in the end, there's so many variations, that it all starts to appear random, and nothing I couldn't have come up with myself. I mean you can split upper and lower body, or you can combine agonist and antagonistic lifts, like the bench and rows, or you can combine pushes with other pushes, like doing bench and press on the same day, or pulls with other pulls, or you can alter heavy with light, max effort with dynamic effort, high reps with low reps, volume versus intensity, and maybe a few other variables, but it's hard to see how a strict programming of those variables is any better than our more instinctive approach, at least at the intermediate level. If I feel like testing my 1RM, I'm going to do, no matter what day of the week it is. If I feel like taking it easy, or just have 20 minutes to spare, so be it.

Basically, I'll just use my flow chart as a guide, and do anywhere between three and six workouts per week, varying sets and reps and effort levels depending on time and energy. I wasn't able to get in my power cleans yesterday afternoon, so I'm back to my 3-day schedule for this week, unless something happens today. Here's a more stripped down version of the chart:


After milling this over for a few weeks now, I've concluded there are basically only two important considerations. One, start the week with squats and separate them from the deadlifts by at least two days, since squats have more potential to interfere with the the weekend long run than any other lift, and squats and deadlifts are my two most intense lifts and so should be spaced apart a bit. Two, put the bench on the same day as the squats or on the next workout, since the bench is the third most intense lift for me. After that, it's pretty easy to fit in the press and power cleans, and decide where, if anywhere, to put in the chin-ups and rows. What I've found impossible is to do any of the three big lifts--squats, deadlifts, and bench--and maybe the power cleans too, on the weekend when the kids are around. I need too much concentration. Almost anything else can be made up there if I miss it during the week.

For bar position, I think Rippetoe's rational for a lower bar position on the squat is that it reduces the moment arm of the movement, aligning the bar more vertically above the midfoot, leading to greater efficiency and balance, resulting in more load capacity.




What do you mean by your 20x2 plan?