what stretches & drills does everyone do?

[farmershort]

Hi All,

I've probably got the wrong sub-forum, so apologies.. this is my first proper post.

I'm trying to slowly slowly get into BFR for the 2nd time. I tried it over 12 months ago, lots of silly mistakes including TMTS in VFFs as a starting point! then probably TMTS barefoot. Anyway, after a year off with PF, I've been pretty worried about starting again.

I've had a coaching session with Anna and David of Barefoot UK, which has been so helpful I can't describe! I'm not sure I'd have ever felt "good form" without their help. One thing which they, and everyone else, mentions fairly regularly is stretching. Having just read the Dr Stoxen post about spring-models, I felt now was the time to ask this.

So, I currently have tight hamstrings, tight calves, tight glutes, slightly less tight quads (though probably not ideal), and tight Achilles! All of the above are clearly from sitting at a desk all day, and then driving everywhere else! I'm 30 years old, and work in IT.... at a desk

so, for the last 5 or 6 months, I have been doing the following every morning, and night, and before and after a gym session:

Calf stretch (traditional, leaning against a wall)
quad stretch (traditional, holding foot with opposite hand)
hamstring stretch (one leg perched on something slightly lower than hip height)
seated figure of 4 stretch (for the glutes)
and finally, touching of the toes with feet aligned, hip distance apart.

Since the coaching session, I've added an achilles/soleus stretch - you kneel on one knee, have the other foot slightly in front of the kneeling knee, then keeping that heel on the floor, try and drive the non-kneeling knee forwards.... I'm sure that probably makes no sense at all... sorry.

I'm also doing 2 yoga classes a week, and I have a desire to do sun salutations every morning as well, but I'm struggling to try and fit it into the routine. I should mention that I've also started walking to work as well - 2 miles each way.

So, what stretches / drills are you all doing to build up or sustain fitness for barefoot running? Any advice, or things I really must add to my routine?

Thanks

Barefoot Farmer (courtesy of TJ)...

 

[BFwillie_g]

Hey Farmer - I think you might be surprised at some of the responses you get here. People (me included) are actually moving away from stretching these days. The Sock Doc is one of the most obstreperous voices in the arena:

http://www.drgangemi.com/2011/04/stop-stretching/

two things that I've discovered which I find better than stretching:

ice baths (which I don't really do much anymore, but they're fantastic - immediately after a run)
"rolling" (people generally say "calf rolling" but I roll the calves, ITB, Hams, Quads, and the Glutes!)

Here's a whole page of vids you can browse

My equipment tip: a 50x500mm piece of PVC pipe from the home center (and possibly the insulated foam sleeve to go over it). People also use rolling pins and, in some cases, expensive expensive professional foam rollers, including special trigger point devices.

 

[scedastic]

Also, may I strongly suggest doing everything you can to do as little sitting in a day as possible. Find little ways of avoiding sitting in your daily life, then eventually you will start to find more.
You don't need a fancy stand up desk for work; you can make your own desk a stand up by using a breakfast tray, milk crate, shelving, what have you (my dh is handy and he made me a little stand up stand to go on top of the table).
No matter what you do when running, all that sitting (and possibly slouching) can do you in.
For the last year, I've avoided sitting whenever possible (so I will stand in a waiting room, stand while watching my kids at swim lessons, practicing balance on one foot, stand when studying, get up frequently to stand while watching tv, standing right now at the kitchen table on my computer with my stand up stand).
It's made an enormous difference in my entire body; for one, back pain is a distant memory for me, and my legs stay much looser, especially after a workout.

 

[scedastic]

+1 on rolling.
I used to be a big ole stretcher, at least after exercise, no more.
I have found lots of foot exercise, squats, hip exercises and ab/core work, feels like it helps my bf form. Also, wobble board (balance board) and posture work, practicing standing/doing exercises when balanced on one foot, seem to help a lot as well.

 

[Tristan]

+1 to Willie

I always stretched, but have converted to non stretching with the bf transition. I know I have changed a lot oabout my form and training routine all at once, but with all the changes including a 15-20 minute warmup & cooldown instead of stretching, I'm better than I ever have been. Havent stretched since september last year really.

I have a similar desk job... got to sit 12 hrs a day (also 1hr drive each way so sitting 14hrs per day). We cant even leave our desk for lunch or take a walk. Even worse when you got 2 hrs of sleep then have to sit for 12hrs.

 

[NickW]

I believed in that non-stretching stuff like Willie and Tristan but then after not stretching for 7 months I developed PF for the first time in my life. I had been relying on just rolling and massaging the muscles during this time. Now, about 7 months after developing PF I am finally starting to get some relief from it by stretching, really focusing on my calves, in addition to rolling all the areas that Willie suggested. I do relieve believe that being on your feet more than on your butt really helps a person feel better too like scedastic suggests.

 

[Bare Lee]

BFR is often taken as a package deal: paleo diet, sit-stand desk, more trail running, no stretching, and maybe a little earthing on the side. Find out what works for you, but I personally benefit a lot from stretching, although I did take the bait on the first three components of the barefoot package. And when the Soc Doc says 'stretching is for bozos' you'll soon find out what he really means is that 'static stretching with no warm-up and/or with certain types of injuries and/or for no purpose is for bozos.' Jimmy Hart recommends stretching (or 'lengthening' as the no-stretching crowd calls it) the calves and feet to alleviate TOFP (http://gobarefooting.com). I found this beneficial when I was just starting to run barefoot again, and I continue to stretch my feet throughout the day after a run and it feels great. I also like doing the splits and putting my foot up over my head when I finish a run, and twisting, and touching my palms to the floor, etc., just like your routine. While the topic of stretching is currently controversial, and therefore anyone who takes an absolute stance on it is blowing smoke, there is evidence that long distance running performance can be adversely affected by being too limber, because it can decrease the elastic recoil of the tendons, especially if you stretch a lot right before a run. On the other hand, being limber helps prevent injuries. So, for us recreational/fitness runners, there's really no reason not to stretch if you find it beneficial, but as others have pointed out, there are alternatives that can be just as effective for some. A lot of people like yoga too (just don't call it stretching!).

 

[BFwillie_g]

I should add that I'm personally not so strictly anti-stretching. I do stretch out my hips because they tend to get tight and it just feels good. And I'll find myself with my toes on a curb letting my heels hang down to stretch my calves once in a while, stuff like that. But no more extended "stretching routines" as I used to do.

And don't overlook those ice baths.

Also, something I really do stretch pretty often and I feel is really benificial: my feet! Forgot to mention that - especially the tops, by curling my toes and pushing them down hard enough to really feel it on the top.

 

[Hawkbilly]

It's a bit of a binary world we live it, isn't it. Barefoot running good..... or barefoot running bad. Stretching good.....or stretching bad. In most cases neither extreme is an absolute, it's a matter of finding the good and making it work for you.

What I liked about the article linked to above was the concept of not ignoring your tight muscles....and ask why are they tight, what is causing this stiffness ? Most of us just stretch the muscles and don't think to ask why they were tight or sore in the first place.

 

[Hawkbilly]

I also like doing the splits and putting my foot up over my head when I finish a run, and twisting, and touching my palms to the floor, etc

Ahh, I hope that your referring to several different movements, and not just one. Otherwise, um.....well, ow! My foot doesn't go above my head, and even if it did, my palms sure is heck ain't getting on the floor.

 

[jldeleon]

Also, may I strongly suggest doing everything you can to do as little sitting in a day as possible. Find little ways of avoiding sitting in your daily life, then eventually you will start to find more.
You don't need a fancy stand up desk for work; you can make your own desk a stand up by using a breakfast tray, milk crate, shelving, what have you (my dh is handy and he made me a little stand up stand to go on top of the table).
No matter what you do when running, all that sitting (and possibly slouching) can do you in.
For the last year, I've avoided sitting whenever possible (so I will stand in a waiting room, stand while watching my kids at swim lessons, practicing balance on one foot, stand when studying, get up frequently to stand while watching tv, standing right now at the kitchen table on my computer with my stand up stand).
It's made an enormous difference in my entire body; for one, back pain is a distant memory for me, and my legs stay much looser, especially after a workout.

Indeed, when I used to work a 40 hour a week desk job I made myself a platform for my computer, as well. I can no longer work desk jobs because they are just too hard on my body. Try sitting on one of those big weirdo balls. There is also, this, kneeling chair/posture chair

I do not "stretch" either, anymore, not passive stretching anyway. What I do instead is contract the antagonist (opposing) muscle of the one that is tight. So if my quad is tight, I contract my hamstring. It would be beneficial to look up a list of muscles and their antagonists and try this out. This is the same way muscles get "stretched" in yoga, actively, not passively -and the Sock Doc talks about yoga in that article as well. My muscles have been a LOT happier since I quit stretching them.

Also, this sounds completely bizarre, but you need to use a foam roller on your pectoralis muscles. That's because anyone that sits at a computer all day WILL have super tight pec muscles, whether they realize it or not. Most people don't even realize how tight they are because they are used to them feeling tight. The reason the pec muscles are so important for your lower body is because their tightness negatively affects the entire alignment of the spine, therefore hips, therefore legs, feet, etc., in large part because all the muscles in the body are connected by a single think skin called fascia. I have been rolling my pecs regularly now for a couple of months and it has made a huge positive impact on my lower body. So I use a foam roller for them -cuz if you use a PVC pipe you will end up bruising your sternum. This is not pleasant. I put the foam roller up against a wall and I roll one side at a time (by bending my knees up and down). If I find a knot (which I usually do) I will put the edge of the foam roller on it and the edge sinks into the muscle and knocks it out.

 

[jldeleon]

A lot of people like yoga too (just don't call it stretching!).

Traditional yoga, as it is meant to be done and when performed correctly, is not stretching. You are always contracting muscles in the poses. Unfortunately there have been a lot of spin off methods on yoga that have turned it into stretching.

 

[farmershort]

wow.. where to start...

ok, ice baths... seriously!?!?! I suppose that might be easier to manage logistically with your big american freezers complete with ice makers.... exactly how much ice do you put in your baths? We can buy bagged ice in the uk, but I reckon 1 bag of ice would melt pretty quickly in a bath full of cold water.

standing desks... I've become more and more attracted to this idea, but I have 2 concerns, one practical, one which is more of a question. The practical issue is that I'm an IT contractor - so I turn up somewhere, pretend I know everything (i.e. have to look the part), work for 6 months... maybe 12 months if I'm lucky... then move on to the next contract. Not so easy from a "build your own desk" point of view. The question is really about standing all day. I'm all on board with the anti-sitting things... if we evolved to sit down all day, then we'd be chair shaped. but... we seem to be taking all of these trendy cues from the "cave men" of old. When said cave men needed to cook, prepare food, make tools, make clothes, etc, he would more likely have been in a position affectionately known as the "latrine squat". I'm not convinced paleo man would have actually stood around much at all - squatting, walking, running, sleeping... that was probably his lot. If my half-arsed theory is correct, then these treadmill walking desks would make some sense, but it would seem that a squatting desk might be more authentic than a standing desk.

paleo diet... from what I've read, this involves eating both raw and cooked foods.... plenty of meat & fat, no processed carbs, and fasting every so often - have I got that right? I'm happy to be proven wrong on this, but I have totally given up with all things labelled 'diet'. At 105kg and 6'1" (that's about 231 pounds for the americans (assuming us pounds are the same as uk pounds)), I've decided to follow more of an inner-happiness approach to mindful eating - that way, I can eat anything

triston-OH.. you're not allowed to leave your desk for lunch!?!?! you know we have laws against that over here in the UK.... the weather is crap, but the working conditions are good.

rolling.. I can remember trying this at a gym about 18 months ago... it hurt in many places. That should have been a sign that it was probably beneficial, but sadly I didn't bother with it again. I will sort myself out with a roller, and give this a go. thanks!

anti-stretching... there's part of me that says "well, you're already running without shoes, what the hell..." - perhaps not stretching in just the next part of the puzzle. I certainly can't imagine paleo man stretching like I do.... mind you, paleo man didn't live past 40 years old, so perhaps by my age he'd already stopped running. Another part of me reads that soc doc stuff and thinks he's a loon trying to make a few quid (bucks) from the next fad. Good old scepticism eh! I haven't had chance to watch the videos yet, but I'll do that tonight and make more of an educated assessment. I do so fear the dreaded PF!

I've also had another sort of anti-stretching tip from outside the forum - Feldonkrais - have any of you heard of that? thoughts? There's also a pile of those vids on youtube which look.... interesting...

I can certainly understand the argument regarding the "spring" issues... even after stretching, I feel in no way "springy", and I find a lot of the spring exercises rather forced and awkward - which I know says more about me than the exercises. What I really want is a handy little package of moves which I can do as often as required, which fit in with the rest of life. It's perhaps worth mentioning that I do recognise that this life... you know, desk work, etc, is the fundamental evil... I will change it in the longer term, but short term, I'm going to have to deal with it as best as I can.

please keep it coming...

Thanks

Adam

 

[farmershort]

oh, I missed out the yoga bit.... I like to think I'm doing "proper" yoga... well, it's hatha, but it's also meditation, and I've read the bhagavad gita recently so I better understand hatha (or should that be karma, or raja?) yoga's place in everything.

 

[Bare Lee]

Ahh, I hope that your referring to several different movements, and not just one. Otherwise, um.....well, ow! My foot doesn't go above my head, and even if it did, my palms sure is heck ain't getting on the floor.

Yah, I wondered what sort of image that ambiguous construction might conjure! But ya, they are different movements. A month or so ago I began doing the splits again, but my privates are still a ways from touching the ground. I will probably need a few more months before I can do the splits 100%, although it's surprising how much springiness I've retained from my karate days. I think tendons may have a longer memory than muscles. For the foot-above-the-head thing, I just find a nice high wall or bar or something and throw my foot up there and then lean into it. The static stance is ecstatic after a nice run. My whole body relaxes and I begin to believe world peace is possible and that corruption can be rooted out at its core. I also get a good view of my toes. Hi fellas. Then I take a shower and come out simply thankful that I am still fairly limber at this point in my life, midlife.

 

[Bare Lee]

Hey Adam, thanks for the feedback and insight. Let me add a few more thoughts/observations.

I use the stand part of my sit-stand desk whenever I get tired of sitting, and then sit down again whenever I get tired of standing. It seems to help, although sitting was never really that much of problem for me to begin with, at least physically. It's the mental anguish of working at a desk when I'm in my non-obsessive phase that kills me.

I do a half-assed version of the paleo, nothing religious. Mostly it has meant switching out cereal in the morning for mixed nuts with dried fruit. The rest of the day I just eat raw fruits and veggies, and then at night I eat grilled animal flesh and more veggies with some wine or beer. I think the main thing is just to avoid processed food--white floor, sugar, corn syrup, sodium nitrate, aspartame, and the rest. The specifics (fat versus protein, etc.) of what sort of whole/natural food you should eat awaits better evidence, and anyway, exercise trumps diet by a long shot, if you ask me.

When calculating average lifespans, you have to take into account that there was a high infant mortality rate until recently, part of natural selection; those that made it past 3-5 years had a good chance of living fairly long. Averages of course, are meant to conceal variation and detail. And paleolithic humans exploited a wide variety of ecological niches, so making generalizations about how they lived and ate isn't always very helpful, although I do believe adopting an evolutionary perspective can be very fruitful, generally.

In Minnesota we get our ice baths by swimming in lakes.

And yes, a lot of people around the word sit quite a lot when given the chance, but it's often on top of mats on the ground doing some kind of activity that requires more than typing or reading, and doesn't usually happen for long periods, day after day, unless you belong to a craft guild or something.

I agree the Soc Doc's bozos campaign comes off as a cheap trick to draw web traffic, but TJ assures us that it is not, that he's really a nice guy who sincerely believes in his message. I still find it irresponsible to state something so strongly when the jury is still out, and with potentially harmful consequences for his readers, but this is the internet after all, anyone can say whatever they want as long as their web page is well-designed.

And yes, Tristan really needs to look into better work conditions. That sounds awful.

 

[BFwillie_g]

ok, ice baths... seriously!?!?! I suppose that might be easier to manage logistically with your big american freezers complete with ice makers.... exactly how much ice do you put in your baths?

See the flag there, mate? See any spangly stars or stripes?

For an ice bath, if your tap water is uncomfortably cold, you probably don't need anymore than that. But to give it a boost, you can toss in a couple cooler packs (from your tiny freezer).

There are huge discussions on the topic in other forums. I know of people who actually sit in the tub naked from the waist down, but wearing a winter jacket and hat. That's kind of stupid, imo.

The simplest method most people use goes like this: sit in the empty (naked or wearing whatever you wore when you ran, or whatever - it doesn't matter), turn on the cold tap (eh, drain closed, right?), keep sitting as the water fills up to about waist depth, contine sitting a good five to ten minutes. Get out of the tub and dry off ... It shouldn't be fun the first time you do it; if it is, you need more ice.

The badass German method: sit in the cold water a while, then jump into the shower (assuming you have a European separate tub/shower stall), blast the HOT water as hot as you can stand it, probably hotter, for maybe 15 seconds, jump back into the icy water .... repeat the routine three or five times ...

Our tap water so bitterly cold that I can just do this in the shower - switching back and forth between hot and cold (using my Erupean shower head attached to a flexible stainless steel hose).

Anyway, these methods really reduce the factors that cause the tightness in the first place. Especially after a hard, long workout or a tough race, if you immediately afterwards, you'll wake up the next day with much fresher feeling legs than you expect. the effect is quite amazing, really.

edit: btw, refer back to the very first statement I made up there ^^

 

[scedastic]

Also, in terms of standing at a desk, I have a little stand that I put on top of a desk. It can be put in my trunk.
I'm a fidgety person, not much of a stand still type. So when I stand, I shift weight, I stop to do exercises on one foot, I walk back and forth away from my desk a few feet here and there when I'm thinking, and yes, when I get bored, I will work on the floor in a squat position.
Yes, my office mate gets very annoyed with my constant moving around. However, I do think having a stand up desk allows you to move around as much as anything. Sitting makes me sleepy and my body will stay in the same spot for a long time. When you are already standing, it feels easier to wiggle around as need be.

 

[scedastic]

On stretching: I know nothing about it, but from the studies I've seen (abstracts only), and summaries, it seems like the only clearly dangerous stretching is done for long periods on cold muscles to "warm up" before activity. From my understanding, you should not to stretching like that, and there is some consensus.
Otherwise, debate away.

 

[scedastic]

Willie, hard core on the ice baths! Why do you do them? Or are there other threads where this topic is covered?