Tweaking my form....observations (hamstring vs. hip flexors)

[Mattlock]

Well I did post this same message at the "other" barefoot forum but I just wanted to get as much feedback as possible.

I've been running BF now for about 9 months with much success. I've gotten up to 15 miles BF at an 8:45 pace. I have noticed now that I am getting really sore hip flexors during my long runs to the point that I am starting to change my form somewhat (based feedback and reading more...POSE etc) I think that I need more hamstring usage and less hip flexors when running...

My last two runs have been more focused on using the hamstrings to lift my feet up and here are my observations thus far..

1) My feet seem to come up higher off the ground than before. Not a lot but more to the point that...

2) I land with more force than before..again still light but not as light.

3) I do still touch with my entire foot, ie heel tap

4) My calves are more sore than before. I did 5 miles today so we'll see how sore I am tomorrow)

5) It is definitely easier to lean forward and use gravity which improves speed with no additional effort...

6) It is a little more difficult to keep the same form going down hill...atleast BF.....due to significant speed increase...maybe easier with a minimal shoe

I am sure as I continue, I will get that right balance of hamstring/hip flexor usage but either ways it seems in the short run either I will have 1) sore hip flexors if I dont change my form or 2)sore calves until I build them up.



Again just my observations but I can definitely tell a difference in each "style"..

Anyone have any thoughts/feedback? Anyone have any similar experiences?

I do plan on getting some video of each method and posting for feedback.

thanks

Matt

 

[stomper]

 Mattlock, I was trying to

Mattlock, I was trying to read this but on my browser I see a lot of exposed HTML and CSS, which makes it very hard. Anybody else see that? At the moment I'm using Google Chrome on Windows XP, but I see the same stuff in Firefox too. --stomper.

 

[Barefoot TJ]

It's not just you, Stomper.

It's not just you, Stomper. When I go into his post, it looks fine, but it displays poorly here. Could this have happened from a cut and paste from elsewhere?


I've cleaned it up here:


Well I did post this same message at the "other" barefoot forum but I just wanted to get as much feedback as possible.

I've been running BF now for about 9 months with much success. I've gotten up to 15 miles BF at an 8:45 pace. I have noticed now that I am getting really sore hip flexors during my long runs to the point that I am starting to change my form somewhat (based feedback and reading more...POSE etc) I think that I need more hamstring usage and less hip flexors when running...
My last two runs have been more focused on using the hamstrings to lift my feet up and here are my observations thus far..
1) My feet seem to come up higher off the ground than before. Not a lot but more to the point that...
2) I land with more force than before..again still light but not as light.
3) I do still touch with my entire foot, ie heel tap
4) My calves are more sore than before. I did 5 miles today so we'll see how sore I am tomorrow)
5) It is definitely easier to lean forward and use gravity which improves speed with no additional effort...
6) It is a little more difficult to keep the same form going down hill...atleast BF.....due to significant speed increase...maybe easier with a minimal shoe
I am sure as I continue, I will get that right balance of hamstring/hip flexor usage but either ways it seems in the short run either I will have 1) sore hip flexors if I dont change my form or 2)sore calves until I build them up.
Again just my observations but I can definitely tell a difference in each "style"..
Anyone have any thoughts/feedback? Anyone have any similar experiences?
I do plan on getting some video of each method and posting for feedback.
thanks
Matt

 

[Barefoot TJ]

So using your hamstrings more

So using your hamstrings more equals using your calf muscles more.

I would continue to work through the new form using the hip flexors less and the calves more. Deal with the calf tightness now, first, since it will go away in a few short weeks after using the new form.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

 

[miker]

TJ, I think it is probably a

TJ, I think it is probably a cut & paste issue. Happened to me once also. I'm guessing he posted on the other forum first, then copied it and pasted it here.

Just my $.02

Cheers!

 

[LavaRunner]

 If typing in word or other

If typing in word or other word processor, paste first into notepad then recopy and paste to the forum. This will prevent embedded codes from transfering.

 

[Mattlock]

 Sorry the confusion everyone

Sorry the confusion everyone on the cut and paste issue. Yes, I did cut and paste. I appreciate the feedback also.

Matt

 

[stomper]

 Mattlock, here's a different

Mattlock, here's a different idea. Maybe it will help, maybe it will totally screw you up, maybe it will just add some variety.

FWIW, You might imagine your legs are being pulled up by your illiopsoas muscle, kind of an ab muscle, but it does technically connect to your femur.

This can aid in the rotation of your hips, which is a way to lengthen stride without reaching your legs too far out front. And it can help you develop a cycling or wheel like motion to your leg movement, which both chi running and ken bob talk about.

I'm not sure how much the psoas can actually do, but i know when I focus on this effect my legs feel lighter and less tired.

 

[hmduey]

Hi Matt,I've experienced

Hi Matt,

I've experienced everything you wrote about, with the exception of the hip flexor pain. When I first started conversion to MR/BFR, I tried POSE and ultimately modified it somewhat so I don't lean quite as much, and I probably have a longer stride than I should. I've noticed that when I'm concentrating on the lift of my legs, I tend to lift them higher (probably too high) and therefore land harder. When that starts I have to completely regroup and concentrate on taking baby steps again.

I don't have any advice on what to do about any of it (I'm working through the calf pain, but since I'm still transitioning into it all that's to be expected I guess), but at least you know you're not alone. ;-)

 

[Mattlock]

stomper wrote: Mattlock,

Mattlock, here's a different idea. Maybe it will help, maybe it will totally screw you up, maybe it will just add some variety.

FWIW, You might imagine your legs are being pulled up by your illiopsoas muscle, kind of an ab muscle, but it does technically connect to your femur.

This can aid in the rotation of your hips, which is a way to lengthen stride without reaching your legs too far out front. And it can help you develop a cycling or wheel like motion to your leg movement, which both chi running and ken bob talk about.

I'm not sure how much the psoas can actually do, but i know when I focus on this effect my legs feel lighter and less tired.

Thanks stomper for the ideas..I will experiment with this.

 

[Mattlock]

hmduey wrote:Hi Matt,I've

Hi Matt,

I've experienced everything you wrote about, with the exception of the hip flexor pain. When I first started conversion to MR/BFR, I tried POSE and ultimately modified it somewhat so I don't lean quite as much, and I probably have a longer stride than I should. I've noticed that when I'm concentrating on the lift of my legs, I tend to lift them higher (probably too high) and therefore land harder. When that starts I have to completely regroup and concentrate on taking baby steps again.

I don't have any advice on what to do about any of it (I'm working through the calf pain, but since I'm still transitioning into it all that's to be expected I guess), but at least you know you're not alone. ;-)



I'm actually not having much calf pain but I am a little concerned about my feet coming up too high and landing harder. When I was using my hip flexors more it was easier for me to run "lightly" but on those long runs I really started to get hip flexor fatigue. I can clearly sense the difference when I pull more from the hamstrings and keep my knees down and lean more... speed is a little easier.... but the landings are alittle harder... I will keep working at it and see how it goes.



thanks

 

[Ludo]

Just found this thread and

Just found this thread and your post Mattlock.

Any update on what works the best for you? Hamstrings vs hip flexors?

I am having the same dilemma... especially after reading about that 100-up exercise.

Thanks!

Hi Matt,

I've experienced everything you wrote about, with the exception of the hip flexor pain. When I first started conversion to MR/BFR, I tried POSE and ultimately modified it somewhat so I don't lean quite as much, and I probably have a longer stride than I should. I've noticed that when I'm concentrating on the lift of my legs, I tend to lift them higher (probably too high) and therefore land harder. When that starts I have to completely regroup and concentrate on taking baby steps again.

I don't have any advice on what to do about any of it (I'm working through the calf pain, but since I'm still transitioning into it all that's to be expected I guess), but at least you know you're not alone. ;-)



I'm actually not having much calf pain but I am a little concerned about my feet coming up too high and landing harder. When I was using my hip flexors more it was easier for me to run "lightly" but on those long runs I really started to get hip flexor fatigue. I can clearly sense the difference when I pull more from the hamstrings and keep my knees down and lean more... speed is a little easier.... but the landings are alittle harder... I will keep working at it and see how it goes.



thanks

 

[Haselsmasher]

A couple of caveats before I

A couple of caveats before I comment: With my comments below I'm not advocating that people "should" run Pose or that it is "the" right way. I've studied Pose and it's a model that works for me - so I guess I'd call myself a Pose runner. I worked with a Pose coach and, by chance, have had email exchange with another that I've met via other running forums and blogs regarding the 100 Up. The comments below are written as if I know for certain the Pose theory methodology - but in reality I'm not Pose certified and it represents what I think I understand the theories to be after my coaching, spending time in the forums at posetech.com, etc.

The primary reason the hamstring vs. hip flexor topic comes up in Pose is because there is a very strong desire to land under the body's center of mass. Further, it's believed if the hip flexor is used too actively it encourages longer strides and thus landing in front of center of mass. A quick experiment: Stand up and lift one leg (like in the 100 Up) and lift the foot so it is right next to the knee of the leg that is on the ground. You can "arrange" the airborn leg in one of two ways and still keep that foot by the knee: either lift the knee high and not engage quite so much the hamstring. Or the other way around: Lower the knee - which then requires a little more hamstring engagement to keep the foot next to the knee. The difference between the two is high knee placement vs a lower knee placement.

The higher the knee placement the further out in front of you the knee is - which increases the likelihood your stride is going to be longer - and you will land in front of the center of mass.

1. Mattlock: Your finding of more sore calves when using the hamstring makes total sense to me in this model - especially when you commented in a later posting about your stride length. With your hamstring use you probably are shortening your stride, which means you may be landing more directly under your hips, which is making the foot/ankle/calf do more work in that "spring" mechanism when you land. Your soreness likely is a result of the different landing. I would say it's not a bad thing. It sounds like it's a mini version of the calf soreness we all experiment when we go to BF in general.

2. Ludo: The Pose folks in general have an issue with the 100 Up because of this hip flexor engagement issue. It tends to encourage high/forward knee - which again Pose sees as bad. I think they would also say (and others, too, whether one likes Pose or not) that it's hard to boil down running to basically one issue/drill. Personally I get nervous when someone says or thinks "Do this one thing and all will be fine." As a society we want so badly the quick fix - be it a drill or a pill or - dare I say - "a shoe that is matched to our foot type". People have to work out what works for them. Ok - I'm off now on my opinion of the 100 Up, which was not the question..............................

Jim

 

[Smelph]

just a short cocmment on the

just a short cocmment on the "heel tap": I ultimately land on my entire foot and try to keep my heel bearing most of my weight instead of keeping up on my forefoot. I used to stay on my forefoot more, but was finding that it was really stressing out my feet and ankles. since using more of my foot these issues don' show up.

so the short version: nothing wrong with a heel tap. you just don't want it hitting first

 

[Peanut]

regarding "heel tap". I've

regarding "heel tap".

I've been running Bf for a while now.

I think the heel tap is just fine. Most of us BFers know that the brain is looking for prioreception. The heels touches the ground and the brain says, OK, you;ve touched now lift and do it again. Of course that's why those super jive springy running shoes make things worse. It takes MORE force to get the heel to touch the ground with more padding.

So, with BF when our heels do touch it is so very light and is AFTER the rest of the foot comes down. This way the force is distributed much more efficiently and does not go up the leg to the knees and other joints.

When I first started BF I thought my heel should never touch. This raised a lot of consternation with my poor calves. Now I allow my foot to do what it wants to which is to have the heel drop a wee bit and touch. Now my legs and calves are happy and my running is much easier.

 

[Ludo]

@ Jim:  Thank you for your

@ Jim:

Thank you for your post. It was a very instructive one.

I am trying to use my hamstrings more lately (similar to Pose I guess) but I feel like I am landing not as gently than before even if it's more underneath my hips.

 

[Barefoot Dama]

All of this confuses me, is

All of this confuses me, is no wonder too many newbies don't know what to do.

When I run I just run, I don't think of anything running related BUT I do noticed on my long runs that my butt, core and hammies got a good workout also.

What does it all mean?

 

[mokaman]

Barefoot Dama wrote:All of

All of this confuses me, is no wonder too many newbies don't know what to do.

When I run I just run, I don't think of anything running related BUT I do noticed on my long runs that my butt, core and hammies got a good workout also.

What does it all mean?

It means you lift your feet more with Hammies... basically more butt kick than knee lift...same way I run. Everyone has to find their own sweet spot to this balance...if you try to force one way or the other you will wear out your hammies or your hip flexors sooner which for me makes one or the other start to cramp up on long runs.

Cadence plays into this basically higher cadence = a little more on the hammy side...don't try to force one way or the other too much at one time. Most of the time just running without thinking about it works best but if way way in to a run your hammies are in trouble slow your cadence just a little and lift your knee's a bit more to recover.

This works both ways so if your hip flexors start to cramp shorten your stride up, speed the cadance and pull with your hammies a little more. Sounds easy right... but way into a long run and this happens your in trouble so just try changing the up for just a few minutes to get some recovery for the muscles that are over worked. Mostly just run till something is not right then make very small changes to this balance between th ehammies pulling ag the hip flexors lifting....something to try anyway.

 

[Barefoot Dama]

Moka, I do indeed have a very

Moka, I do indeed have a very high cadence(my friend's wife says that I look like a hummingbird).

My hummies feel the workout but have never cramped, ever, sometimes I try to slowed down my cadence to see how my stride changes but my calves don't like so I just stick to my normal turnover.