Yah, getting out of one's comfort zone in any undertaking is a great learning tool and usually invigorating. That's why I finally got married . . .
Road surface is my major obstacle right now ...
- Thread starter Marco1971
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NickW
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Jason, I know the human feet are capable of much more than I ever thought. Back when I was in the Army and sent over to Afghanistan those people opened my eyes to just what the feet, and body in general, were capable of. They live in biblical times almost, and in the villages where I spent the majority of my time a lot of people didn't own any shoes. They walked around through all the boulders and rocks barefoot as if it was nothing. They walked around in nearly 2 feet of snow as if it was a balmy 80 degrees. I remember how shocked I was to see that. From kids to adults, they all just did it. They acted like we were the weird ones because we always had boots on.
Not only is that limit-pushing fun, it really develops your trail running skills. Before I had gnarly trails for training, I did most of my training on rough gravel roads. Having to dance around on that crap dramatically improved my ability to pick out the ideal foot landing in a cluttered debris field, improved my balance, and was a good core workout.
Don't be afraid to occasionally tackle the really nasty stuff. Start by walking. The sensitivity of the sharp stuff will decrease to a point. More importantly, you develop the skills to avoid debris or minimize the pain. Graduate to very slow running. Eventually you become fairly proficient. You'll be surprised at what you can tackle.
+1! I will just say if I had the opportunities to run in the areas you do, especially the mountains, I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to put footwear on. "Shoes as tools" if barefooting is not an option.
This is a fact that being the barefoot runners we are, that we can not deny, or should not hide, no matter how long or how much experience one has, that there will always be some discomfort running barefoot. I can say with confidence even the old school barefoot runner veterans have some runs that just do not go as smoothly as others. But this is just never mentioned in books or talked about, but it should, because if gives beginners and non-beginners a sense of comfort that nothing is wrong.
Just from experience I can say when I am mentally, or physically tired, my feet are much more sensitive and makes my barefoot runs more uncomfortable. Also the the temperature change will effect my sensitivity more. I live in Connecticut and the temperature has been all over the place, it seems consistency doesn't exits anymore during the seasons. I can adapt to temperatures but it doesn't happen over night, it takes me a good week or so for the soles to adapt. For example if I am running in weather that is in the low 80's, then all of sudden I take a early morning run and its 50 degrees, I definitely will feel more sensitive on that run. And the last thing that attributes to the sensitivity is back to back barefoot runs, or going high mileage without taking a break for a few days. The plantar skin performs better with some rest in between runs.
Ask Mike, he actually saw the tears...
you told me you bit your tongue!
as far as that pic of dan, that actually looks like a better section of the "trail". it was an 11 mile road where they were planning on building houses and decided against it. there are gravel sections like that, torn up black top, dirt, and worse of all is the rocks in the ground with gravel spread all around so there is no one safe place to step.
i've found you have to really be able to relax and believe it or not the faster you can go the less it will hurt, depending on where that sharp rock hits you.
last winter when i ran bf my feet would tingle the entire night like the nerves were all bragging to each about what they did. strange sensation. didn't happen the same this winter. push yourself a little and don't be afraid to stop when you can't take anymore. you'll be surprised at how your feet adapt. i sometimes feel like i've gone backwards because i handled a section easily before and then didn't afterwards.
the worse for me to run on is packed dirt with small sharp bits of gravel spread across it. not enough to spread your weight and too much to land in between. that kills me.
Honest reports from other BFRers, especially people who have been doing it for a few years, are invaluable.
This is similar to what I run on. When I first went out I had bleeding blisters on my toes. Lets just say running on this stuff gives you more motivation to improve form and run as lightly as possible. I still prefer almost any other surface though.
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Running with a stroller seems like both a lot of work, and much more difficult because you can't use your arms to run.
I agree, form is crucial on rougher surfaces, especially when it's cold; if you're slightly off you're going to feel it.
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Yah, the few times I tried it, my shoulders felt sore afterwards. I'm putting the thing on craigslist today I think.
NickW
Guest
It's not as bad as you all seem to think. First, you have to remember that like bfr, you have to adjust and learn how to do it to be efficient. You don't run with a stroller with both hands on the handle, at least I don't. I have one hand on the handle yet I keep that side of my body loose and am still able to move pretty freely. I honestly believe because of the stroller that is why I am so good (relatively speaking comparing only myself) at going uphill. I really had to learn how to go uphill easily because I live in a hilly area. There's a downside though, I think the stroller has really messed up my downhills because I have to try to keep the stroller in control so I can't just let myself go or anything. Now, when I run without the stroller, I am terribly slow going downhill, but I can go up hills just as fast or faster than flats(something about my form seems to really snap into place for me). I think Gentile used to run with a stroller, maybe still does, and I've been meaning to ask him about the downhills and if he has any techniques that may help me.
NickW
Guest
It's a BOB but I still don't think it's rated for my fata**! Lol! I have been tempted on the steeper stuff though. Actually there's a real steep hill behind me that I've been wanting to try but I am afraid to try it with the stroller. I don't know if I would make it a hundred meters without dying. Maybe I'll make it a weekend run of hill repeats when I don't have to take the boy. I'm also afraid of coming down it with the stroller. It's so steep the stroller may just drag me down the hill.How bout just jumping on and enjoy the ride down
NickW
Guest
Ya maybe dutchie (Montana slang, but probably more just a country boy type slang). My wife get's so mad at me when I say that. I don't think of it in any sort of a bad way so... I think it's Oregonians too, not Oregontonians (have gotten in trouble for that one), not that I'll ever be one even though I am a resident here. I will always be a Montanan at heart. Anywhos, lol!
I've always called my son "the boy" (as in, "how's the boy?"), and we're way over here in Maryland.
When I'm being sarcastic about the boy - and sometimes I am - I say "How's himself?" I think that's Irish.
When I'm being sarcastic about the boy - and sometimes I am - I say "How's himself?" I think that's Irish.
Your "gravel" = my crushed stone. It's nothing but sharp edges, fresh from the quarry. It's what God made min shoes for, imo. Chip'n seal sucks, too, but around here they go with 1/2" bits on the tar.
To speak to the OP's question, yes, you can get used to rougher pavement. Just take it gradually, like over a year or two, stepping off your nice paths onto the other kind a bit each run. You might even try going out for a run on the rough stuff, and running back in min shoes. I've been know to carry my Bikilas for many mile runs just in case I hit a nasty stretch. You might reach a point, like I'm at now where you'll be able to run on a wide range of surfaces, including friendly woods trails, different kinds of pavements, a bit of gravel, or even, gasp! the dreaded crushed stone. The key is GRADUAL building of soles, form and confidence.
If you're ever near Valley Forge Nat'l Park, I can give you a tour that includes nearly all the above in one run of 5 miles or so. Foot candy!
btw, where's your fav park?
To speak to the OP's question, yes, you can get used to rougher pavement. Just take it gradually, like over a year or two, stepping off your nice paths onto the other kind a bit each run. You might even try going out for a run on the rough stuff, and running back in min shoes. I've been know to carry my Bikilas for many mile runs just in case I hit a nasty stretch. You might reach a point, like I'm at now where you'll be able to run on a wide range of surfaces, including friendly woods trails, different kinds of pavements, a bit of gravel, or even, gasp! the dreaded crushed stone. The key is GRADUAL building of soles, form and confidence.
If you're ever near Valley Forge Nat'l Park, I can give you a tour that includes nearly all the above in one run of 5 miles or so. Foot candy!
btw, where's your fav park?
This is a great thread. And I agree that it's really nice to hear about the full range of experiences, good and bad, that some of our most accomplished peers have with rough surfaces.
Most of my progress with rougher surfaces stopped once winter hit, when I was forced to do most of my running on a treadmill. I can run up to 2-3 miles on chip seal (where I live, the sharp chips are about 1/2") or highly eroded concrete (worse than chip seal, as the concrete has eroded, leaving a top surface layer of sharp rocks). However, it's usually uncomfortable and requires a lot of concentration, and my pace slows by about 2-3 minutes per mile compared to smoother surfaces. My plantar skin also suffers for a day or two afterwards.
I tried to build back to this level of running on rough surfaces this spring, but quickly decided it wasn't worth it. So for the past two months, I've focused on mostly smoother surfaces (although usually not entirely smooth, as truly smooth surfaces are rare where I live). I still walk on rough surfaces, usually on my way to starting a run somewhere smoother. Surprisingly, I think my form has improved from this break, and I feel more confident that I can gradually return to longer distances on rougher surfaces. Like many of you, I really don't want to be limited by surfaces as to where I run.
I think the surface that I encounter which scares me the most is scattered 1" sharp gravel (crushed stone) on concrete or asphalt. There is no "give" underneath the gravel and it's impossible to avoid stepping on a few pieces of gravel (but not enough to benefit from the "bed of nails" effect).
I've always tried to follow Ken Bob's advice about "bending the knees", "lifting the feet", relaxing, and taking quick strides as ways to deal with rough surfaces. They help, of course, but I don't think they've worked as well for me as they should have until the last several weeks. Re-watching Mark Cucuzzella's videos and reading the corresponding threads in this forum have given me additional mental tools that help a lot. The idea that we should focus on driving the knees forward (not up, but forward) is a big one for me. The other is to focus on swinging the legs from the hips. By doing both of these, along with bending the knees, lifting the feet and relaxing becomes easier. It's almost like my lower legs and feet are dangling and along for the ride provided by the knees and hips. This is an exaggeration, of course, but it increases the feeling that I'm floating or gliding along above the surface -- running lightly. The way I think about it is that it leaves the heaviest jobs in running to the big muscles and leaves the fine tuning to the smaller muscles of the feet and lower leg.
I apply the same strategies when walking and it's really helped there, too.
I would be interested to hear what other strategies you guys use when running on rough surfaces.
Most of my progress with rougher surfaces stopped once winter hit, when I was forced to do most of my running on a treadmill. I can run up to 2-3 miles on chip seal (where I live, the sharp chips are about 1/2") or highly eroded concrete (worse than chip seal, as the concrete has eroded, leaving a top surface layer of sharp rocks). However, it's usually uncomfortable and requires a lot of concentration, and my pace slows by about 2-3 minutes per mile compared to smoother surfaces. My plantar skin also suffers for a day or two afterwards.
I tried to build back to this level of running on rough surfaces this spring, but quickly decided it wasn't worth it. So for the past two months, I've focused on mostly smoother surfaces (although usually not entirely smooth, as truly smooth surfaces are rare where I live). I still walk on rough surfaces, usually on my way to starting a run somewhere smoother. Surprisingly, I think my form has improved from this break, and I feel more confident that I can gradually return to longer distances on rougher surfaces. Like many of you, I really don't want to be limited by surfaces as to where I run.
I think the surface that I encounter which scares me the most is scattered 1" sharp gravel (crushed stone) on concrete or asphalt. There is no "give" underneath the gravel and it's impossible to avoid stepping on a few pieces of gravel (but not enough to benefit from the "bed of nails" effect).
I've always tried to follow Ken Bob's advice about "bending the knees", "lifting the feet", relaxing, and taking quick strides as ways to deal with rough surfaces. They help, of course, but I don't think they've worked as well for me as they should have until the last several weeks. Re-watching Mark Cucuzzella's videos and reading the corresponding threads in this forum have given me additional mental tools that help a lot. The idea that we should focus on driving the knees forward (not up, but forward) is a big one for me. The other is to focus on swinging the legs from the hips. By doing both of these, along with bending the knees, lifting the feet and relaxing becomes easier. It's almost like my lower legs and feet are dangling and along for the ride provided by the knees and hips. This is an exaggeration, of course, but it increases the feeling that I'm floating or gliding along above the surface -- running lightly. The way I think about it is that it leaves the heaviest jobs in running to the big muscles and leaves the fine tuning to the smaller muscles of the feet and lower leg.
I apply the same strategies when walking and it's really helped there, too.
I would be interested to hear what other strategies you guys use when running on rough surfaces.
