Playing devil's advocate for a minute.

[ajb422]

So most of the arguments against barefoot running are more prejudicial or ignorant and make it pretty easy to answer, but I have one nagging argument that I can't seem to think up a good answer for if anyone ever thinks to ask me it. So I thought I'd come to you guys with it and see what you say.

Alot of people switch to barefoot running to avoid injuries. Except in the process you say the people with the easiest transistion have to drop all shoes. Which of course means a dramatic decrease in running mileage and usually an upsurge in crosstraining. Which is pretty much the recipe to stop running injuries even in shoes. Perhaps this forced period of downtime that could easily last months really just gives everyone time to heal up all the niggling injuries and forces a slow restart thereby developing all the muscles slowly as they were meant to be instead of all at once as shod runners have a tendency to do.

So at first I figured you could argue this by looking at the Kenyans ect... who have always went barefoot and have no injuries. But in that case couldn't you argue that it is actually because their lifestyle incorporates running from such a young age that they don't do TMTS because they are starting from the time they can walk and therefore of course build slower and that is the root cause of their lack of injuries not the barefooting. So I don't think that is actually a legit argument.

What do you all think?

 

[Barefoot TJ]

It's quite simple really. 

It's quite simple really. "Kenyans" don't experience TMTS injuries because they aren't thrown into boat anchors from the time they can walk like most of us in western society are.

 

[Abide]

I think it is a fair

I think it is a fair argument, but I don't think it is accurate. I am convinced poor form is the problem. When you transition to running barefoot you are healing injuries and you are learning proper running form that suits your body. If you do this without correcting form (most likely shod) chances are eventually you are going to end up injured again. The difference is it is very difficult to run improper barefoot. It hurts too much. Shod it is a whole different story.

Kenyans get hurt too. But they have already perfected the art, so most of their injuries are due to overuse.

 

[Barefoot TJ]

I was going to mention that

I was going to mention that "Kenyans" and most if not all runners at some point will experience injury, as most if not all athletes will (it's just the nature of the beast, the beast being athletics in this case), but AJB was talking about TMTS injuries specifically.

 

[Humboldt-explorer]

I don't believe you have to

I don't believe you have to be a born native indian to run without shoes. Injuries will happen from time to time whomever you are.

However to answer the original question. I believe the TMTS problem is due to numerous factors. 1 - It really takes more then months to transition safely. I would say more like 12 months, or more. 2 - folks don't understand how weak feet our from lifelong conventional shoe wearing. 3 - BF walking should take place before BF running with proper forefoot landings. Simply spend more time out of shoes in the early stages. Too many just jump right into BF running. Ease into it. 4 - research. Americans tend to do things somewhat blindly. More personal research needs to happen prior to dramitic lifestyle changes.

Fact is these natives did not pop out into the world, and start running right away. They spent many, many hours learning how to walk first of course BF, or with leather shoes on possibly. At some point they started to run during simple play time with other children. Maybe they worked out the the farming feild BF as they got older with dad. Then eventually they started to really run.

My point is we have to do the same thing. Though we begin the process at a older age. We start taking our shoes off at home. Take are shoes off at work while were sitting. Go for short walks BF. Maybe get some min shoes to wear in everyday activities for many months. When doing all these things we have educated ourselves to forefoot land even during walking as this is the most natural way to move. Maybe we play ping pong BF, or volleyball BF at the family picnic. Then eventually we start to slowly run. It is a whole new way of thinking. The job requires us to slow down. The problem is many of us don't have the patience to transition properly. The transition can begin at any age if done properly. the transition needs to happen in a natural manner not a rushed manner. TMTS can easily be avoided if transitioned properly.

I actually think I can use myself as a example. I started this process over two years ago. With walking first in min shoes, or short BF walks>then the gym activities BF>a little hiking BF>I just started BF running very recently, and my mileage is increasing very, very nicely without issue. I won't even consider putting a shoe on for running. I consider it a success due to my extended transition time. I may injure myself eventually, but my risk is greatly reduced. Plus I do gym workouts BF not just run. So the feet get worked in many different angles which is also important in good foot health.

I hope I answered the original question. I really hope the min shoe companies step up to the plate to educate the customers. VFF has not really in any way, shape, or form. I think all shoe companies will improve design in time, and less will actually be BF. For this reason, and the rush factor. I expect TMTS will become much more wide spread if we don't start educating people more.

 

[jschwab]

I think what it comes down to

I think what it comes down to is whether you think people are capable of devolving from the effects of "civilization". Some will think unless you grew up barefoot, you can't ever be a natural person. Some people also argue modern women are incapable of giving birth without technical assistance and that everyone needs statins to have a functioning heart. I believe it's never too late to be fully human.

 

[pbarker]

If a shod runner drops milage

If a shod runner drops milage to heal injury then brings the milage back up again there is no change in running form. But when you drop mileage to learn barefoot running your form will be radically changed by time your milage has returned. They are two different things, one is to heal only, the other is to heal and change form.

 

[JosephTree]

Julie has a good simile when

Julie has a good simile when she brings up birthing practices. Fewer than 1% of births take place in the home and the entire process has been pathologized. Folks that pay attention to such things know that there's a better way, and are very dedicated to educating the world. The world doesn't want to hear it much. My opinion is that BF/M running has a better chance of going popular than Natural Childbirth which is much harder to practice than running and only half the population is equipped to do it at all.

 

[Barefoot Mary]

Great mind-pick here! Always

Great mind-pick here! Always good to have a devils advocate!

The only horrible debilitating running injury I ever had were sprains on the tops of both my feet from wearing old shoes. I figure barefoot running is partly about stopping and forcing yourself to rest, but the other half is about building muscles that have atrophied in shoes. My feet had atrophied, which made my local running guru tell me I had to buy shoes every 200-500 miles to keep my feet protected and prevent me from straining them again.

Instead, I run barefoot so my feet are strong enough to endure anything! That's just my perspective. I've had early TOFP as I've grown, but I'm sure I couldn't spain them in shoes again...not that I would wear shoes. Hah.

As for shin-splints and knee pain and PT and PF...I don't have experience with those ailments so I don't know...

 

[SillyC]

pbarker wrote:If a shod

If a shod runner drops milage to heal injury then brings the milage back up again there is no change in running form. But when you drop mileage to learn barefoot running your form will be radically changed by time your milage has returned. They are two different things, one is to heal only, the other is to heal and change form.

This, exactly.

I was not injured when I started BFR, and I didn't drop my mileage back as much as recommended. I started a bit faster, but my mileage at the time was low (think 10-15 miles a week). I popped down to 6 miles a week, then did 10, then was back up to 15 again within a month.

I built my miles up to around 30 - 50 a month, without injuries. I had never been able to get it there in shoes because I wasn't comfortable enough or strong enough. I'm sure I know why, too. With barefoot running, there's no tolerance for mistakes. I can't get tired, run badly, and throw it all into the shoe. If I'm too tired to run well, I only have two recourses: go home altogether, or go slow. I can't slog through it the way I could when I had shoes on. It's an investment that has paid off big time for me. My long runs are now powered by genuine strength, not EVA foam.

 

[jschwab]

I also feel like there is

I also feel like there is something much, much more to it. To draw the analogy between childbirth and barefoot running again. You CAN have an injury-free birth even with lots of intervention, but it hurts more and it's harder and it takes more out of you. Even if my injury rates don't decline with barefoot running, frankly it just does not hurt as much when I am injury-free. When I am done running, my feet are not sore. When I am running long distancesm, they do not get sore. It's not an injury. per se, to have sore feet, but it's massively important to know when the pain is over, it's over, KWIM?

 

[C. Beth Run.]

I think we've got to compare

I think we've got to compare our injury rate with shoes to our injury rate BF/minimalist once we get BACK UP to our shod mileage. For me, once I got my mileage back up, one of my injuries (ITBS) came up again. Not all injuries are shoe-related, and that one (for me) isn't. But I was dealing with some runner's knee when I was wearing my old Asics, and even though my minimalist shoe mileage is (some weeks) higher than my shod mileage was, my runner's knee hasn't come back. So I do think that BFR/MR has probably helped me prevent that particular injury.

 

[pbarker]

Sillyc "I can't slog

Sillyc "I can't slog through it the way I could when I had shoes"

That makes a lots of sence to me. I remember slogging along with shoes until a fast runner passed then I would straighten up and quicken my stride

 

[sloutre]

jschwab wrote:I think what it

I think what it comes down to is whether you think people are capable of devolving from the effects of "civilization". Some will think unless you grew up barefoot, you can't ever be a natural person. Some people also argue modern women are incapable of giving birth without technical assistance and that everyone needs statins to have a functioning heart. I believe it's never too late to be fully human.

+1

 

[ajb422]

 Just to clarify a couple of

Just to clarify a couple of things about what I meant and respond to everything at once. (I apologize for the length )

I wasn't so much talking about TMTS injuries just because you won't have those if you are running from the time you are very young. You can't to do much too soon because, well, you don't have the balance to even walk well let alone run. Of course there are still overuse injuries. I do think that if you do something from the time you are young you are able to do said thing much much better. I don't think its fair to use the kenyans as an example of why barefoot running is better because they do run so much from the time they are very young. I'm not saying we can't learn to run, just that if you take someone who started running at age 4 and did it to get everywhere they went, it is not a fair comparison to people like us. There are too many variables. The comparison would need to be with people who have run shod their entire lives in the same amount of mileage that the native populations that are running barefoot are doing.

And I never said you have to be born native to run without shoes. I said that I think if you start running as a gradual progression from walking and continue to do so you I think that leads to less injuries. Your body adapts better when you are young. As humboult said you should walk before you run. I just meant to say that they are better at running period because of their histories of running not that they are better at running bf, although of course they are considering they have done that far more than the rest of us too. Its just like if you take two equally talented people and teach one to play piano starting at 4 years old and one at 20 all other things being equal the four year old would be better. I don't think physical tasks are any different in this sense. I think your muscles probably develop differently based on what you demand from them, just as your mind develops differently based on what you ask from it.

In response to what Abide said, I suppose the reason I had this question is because I haven't had that experience. Every time I hurt myself I had to decrease my mileage until I healed and then I never had that issue again. I had some knee problems for awhile but after a few weeks of decreasing my mileage and increasing my crosstraining it healed and I didn't have it happen again. Thats how pretty much every injury I've had has gone and that was with two week breaks. When people transition to bf running they are often cutting way back on mileage for months and months at a time so it seems like this alone would cause a cessation of many injuries.

In response to Jschwab and in addition to what I said having to do with it above. I do wish people would stop thinking we are so different than our not so distance ancestors. Evolution takes SOOO long that it can't happen over a few generations unless there is very specific breeding programs (obviously not the case with people). Although with that said modern medicine does save alot of people. While statins, antibiotics, and csections all have their negative sides no one can argue that they don't save alot of lives. And with childbirth its not that we think we can't have a natural childbirth its just that its preferable to do so in a controlled situation where if the worst case situation occurs we can have the kid cut out. With very rare exception would I agree to be induced or have a c-section, but I'd much rather be in a hospital in case a worse case scenerio does occur. That being said, I'll be booking it out of the hospital ASAP since infections run so rampant there. Of course Doctors are relying on c-sections and inducing way way way toooooo much because of both the mother's and their own impatience and the poor babies and moms who don't know any better are suffering but I suppose thats a rant for a different day .

I do totally get SillyC when she said

With barefoot running, there's no tolerance for mistakes. I can't get tired, run badly, and throw it all into the shoe. If I'm too tired to run well, I only have two recourses: go home altogether, or go slow. I can't slog through it the way I could when I had shoes on. It's an investment that has paid off big time for me. My long runs are now powered by genuine strength, not EVA foam.

I can completely see how this is true. Not so much for pain intolerent undisciplined runners like me who just went home even in shoes, but for all those poor shod people I see who are cringing and fighting with every step, no way could you do that barefoot. I was talking with some friends a while back and the one was talking about how much she hates running and how you can tell everyone else does too because they look so unhappy. I've started noticing it now. Most runners look like they are throwing all the pain and agony into the shoe.

In response to C.Beth Run comment. I don't think this is absolutely a fair comparison either. Its an impossible comparison to make, but I think the fair would be to see if you dropped your mileage to transition and with an alternate version of yourself dropped your mileage back the same amount and continued running in shoes up. I suppose that also depends on how long you've been running though as well. If you've been running for years and years you probably know what you are capable of in shoes and have probably had many low mileage and high mileage cycles to compare it to. Then it would certainly be close enough. Just with all the newbie runners I don't think it is as fair, KWIM?

 

[Barefoot Gentile]

Running is over-analyzed, 

Running is over-analyzed, barefoot running is so over-analyzed that people talk it about more on the internet while they should be out running and learn the craft.

 

[ajb422]

 Agreed, then again I

Agreed, then again I overanalyze everything in life. Its a curse.

 

[C. Beth Run.]

ajb422 wrote:Agreed, then

Agreed, then again I overanalyze everything in life. Its a curse.

Me too. I'm guessing it's a common curse among BF/minimalist runners. We overanalyzers also like to read up on things, so we end up trying new things.

 

[jschwab]

Wait, I'm confused. Are you

Wait, I'm confused. Are you assuming no one's made the transition to compare? I think there are plenty of before and afters here, in terms of being back up to usual mileage after the transition to barefoot/minimalist. I just ran a PR in the half marathon (PR'ed by 18 minutes) post-transition.

 

[Barefoot TJ]

I've run longer and faster

I've run longer and faster than I ever did in the four years of shod running before I transisitoned to barefoot. I've been barefoot running for over two years now. Within 10 months of running barefoot, I took 15 minutes off my half marathon time. I've also run a 25K race barefoot, and I never could have done that in shoes, due to the neuromas.