Need advice for marathons

[Dave Flickinger]

I am a new member. I'm 44 and have been running in "normal" shoes since I was 14. When I turned 30, I transitioned from 5K - 15K distance into 25K - marathon distance. I've done 12 marathons (3:30 - 4:00 times), and also a few half ironmans. This past summer, I started reading about barefoot running, and became interested because my marathon training often led to IT-band problems. I started going barefoot as much as possible this past summer, except in running. Then after my last marathon (end of Aug), I started my transition to minimalist shoes (Merrill Trail Glove). I started super slow (no more than a mile on a given day), and slowly worked my way up to 8 miles in these shoes.

Are there any members out there with a similar background? While my transition has gone pretty well overall, I wonder how things will go as the mileage increases. My feet do feel sore after the longer runs, especially in the forefoot. Is this normal? And while I use the roller on my calves before each run, my calves feel pretty tired by the end of a 6-8 mile run. Will I have cramping problems when I get to the marathon? And how does barefoot running impact the speed of my marathons? I'm hoping to do a 25K in my minimalist shoes in May, and 1 or 2 marathons this fall.

Being from Michigan (Grand Rapids), I haven't done much running completely barefoot yet. But hoping to give this a try this summer too. We have some good trails in the woods by our house.

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!

Dave

 

[DNEchris]

Hi Dave - welcome!
If you give yourself time to adapt you'll fine it fairly simple to run marathons either barefoot or in minimalist shoes. I'm 58 and did not run consistently until about 3 or 4 years ago. My time for 26 miles is about the same as yours (I don't really do events) and I've run most of mine barefoot. My transition followed the same route as yours (Traditional shoes > minimalist >barefoot) and all went well, given the expected aches and pains during transition.

It sounds like you are giving yourself plenty of time before any events but don't forget to ease up a little if anything starts troubling you.

Enjoy the journey!

 

[theshortwhiteguy]

Welcome Dave.

Same age as you, but I started running at 13, developed ITBS just after graduating h.s. (coincided with transitioning to clipless pedals and incorrect cleat alignment), raced tri's in my late teen's/early 20's (beat a few pros along the way), but I didn't run my first marathon until 5 years ago. I started bf/mr about 3 years ago - a majority of my running is in Vibrams. Has bf/mr made me faster? No...I mean, maybe...I'm not really sure. At this point in my life, I have so many miles in my legs, and given I'm at an age where we plateau, I'm not concerned about speed. Even if geared my training towards speed, I don't think I would be able to crank out a sub-37 10k leg in tri's like I did 25 years ago. For me, it's all about preservation - health and staying injury free (that's becoming harder).

If you stay on the schedule of a May marathon running minimalist, and mixing in bf with that training, you will be able to run as many marathons as your mind (not your calves or legs) can handle in the fall. Your feet and calves will become accustomed to longer runs.

 

[JosephTree]

I'll just throw in a word of caution here. The process of adaption to a new mode of running can take longer than you're talking about here. Keep a close inner eye on your calves and ankles especially. You are still building both muscle mass and bone density, and will be doing so for another year, perhaps. While some people transition without a flinch, it can be pushing it to try 26 mile races as soon as you're talking about.

If nothing else, leave your PR thoughts in the closet with your old shoes. Just go for a smooth, gentle run to finish without pushing and risking stress damages. You do have a good long stretch between now and May to get in a few longer training runs. These should be plenty to build your confidence in your ability to finish the distance. Don't get so cocky that you hurt yourself by trying to run the same as regularly shod time.

Do let us know how your preparations progress and how the races go for you, please.

 

[SillyC]

Dave, you're probably well aware of this... but... if your feet are hurting you might still be stomping around like a T-Rex. Wanna know what I'm going to recommend? Yeah, you know where this is going, right? When it gets up to 50 degrees, start going completely barefoot. Yes, if your forefeet are hurting, you probably don't completely have the form down yet. You need to learn to run lighter, and going completely bare will help that drastically.

"Cushion" isn't necessary to protect your feet if you're running on roads - it's all technique. Where barefoot runners start to genuinely need a bit of cushion in a way that can't be fixed with better technique, it's at longer ultras, when we're running on rocky trails in the dark.

I've got several years of experience in the bag, so for me, the extent that going barefoot effects my speed.... it doesn't really on nice clean roads. If the roads are crappy and full of debris, it might slow me down a bit. I've gotten a lot faster since going barefoot, and I know it isn't completely unusual. Before going barefoot, I let my form get sloppy when I got tired - then I'd end up sore and uncomfortable, and less willing and less able to train hard during my next run. Now, that isn't an option because barefoot, every step has to be a mindful, careful, step. At first, this meant that I was slowing down a bunch, and unable to keep up with my friends when they sprinted at the end of a run. But in the long run (har har) it meant that I built strength, which led to my longer runs being more comfortable. And my faster runs were done with good form and strength, so THEY were a lot more comfortable too.

 

[scedastic]

I'm a novice compared with the folks who already posted, but I do agree on the learning form from bf on HARD surfaces. As much as you can while your muscle memories are resetting,. When I first started, anytime I ran minimal I was way up on my forefoot and couldn't tell what was going on.
Not saying that's what your issues are about, just saying that it would have been way too hard for me to learn proper form only minimal.

Some seem to figure it out while never going bf, but I don't know how they do it. Merrell trail gloves are not all that minimal when it comes to ground feel, either. I know they feel like nothing at all now, but they are fairly structured and will mask a lot.

True bare feet on hard surfaces gives you the best form coaching you can get. Your form becomes natural and you don't have to think about it.

Find hard, concrete, asphalt, cement to run on. You will learn to land lightly. The surface shouldn't hurt AT ALL.
You don't need cushion at all. This is what I believe to be the safest way to learn. Softer surfaces and minimal shoes to "ease" into bf running seem to make sense, but only if you think you need to absorb shock. You don't. And meanwhile, you can get away with masking form issues that you cannot feel on soft surfaces.

 

[SillyC]

To be fair, though - Dave says he's in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Those shoes are pretty necessary now to keep warm.

 

[Zetti]

Nice to see a fellow Michigander....all the advice above is great, this crew has extensive experience.
If you are looking to transition with the impending spring/summer it might help if you were to run with other BFers.

The Michigan IBRD will be held in Ann Arbor at Burns Park
see this thread: http://www.thebarefootrunners.org/threads/ibrd-2013-michigan-ann-arbor-burns-park.12896/

Join the MI chapter and the MI Facebook page and if you start running with other BFRers you will likely get some advice in person that is very difficult to give online.

 

[Dave Flickinger]

Wow - thanks for all of the great advice! That helps. When it comes to speed in marathons, I usually am not so concerned. But this October I'm hoping to qualify for Boston, so was curious what you thought.

Per your advice, I'll pay attention to my ankles, calves and feet and not try to push it too much, too fast. During this transition, if I need to occasionally switch into my traditional shoes during long runs, I'll do so. Or I might keep on my Trail Gloves and just walk a little if I feel the ache, then start back up after a minute or so. Or I might buy a zero-drop shoe with a little cushion so that when I switch out of my Trail Gloves, it is still zero drop. I must admit that I don't desire to put the old shoes back on. I've enjoyed walking around barefoot, wearing my Trail Gloves, wearing my Vivobarefoot dress shoes. I've enjoyed the ground feel more than I thought I would.

Regarding going completely barefoot, I went back-and-forth in September about how I should approach the transition, having read opinions that recommended both ways. Given that it was only going to get colder in Michigan, I decided to start with the Trail Gloves. But I do hope to start doing some bf running this spring. And I bet that you are correct that it will ensure that my form is correct. My 17-yr old daughter and I both started this journey together this past summer. However she didn't have a marathon in August, and so she started running completely barefoot in July. She had no problems. Only at Christmas did she get some minimalist shoes (Vivobarefoot) for running in the winter or on the treadmill.

Thanks for the info on the MI chapter and the IBRD. I'll check out both. I don't know how many bf runners are in Grand Rapids. But while I was watching the GR marathon this past October, I did see one runner pass the 22 mile mark completely barefoot.

Thanks again! I'll let you know how it goes.
Dave

 

[SillyC]

Regarding going completely barefoot, I went back-and-forth in September about how I should approach the transition, having read opinions that recommended both ways.
Dave

Dave, you don't know me, but I'm not one to be overly critical of shoe companies, or rant about conspiracy theories to take people's money.

However, the only places I saw that were recommending a "step down" in shoes were shoe stores. Not even the shoe manufactures - but the stores themselves. The same guys that were handing out hocus-pocus gait analyses want you to buy 5 pairs of step-down shoes instead of one, with barefoot as your primary "shoe".

At some point, Dave, you're going to have to make a decision here. You might have to take a cut in mileage to build yourself back up barefoot. It is not the end of the world, Dave. And how many times have you been out because of injury, anyway?

My colleague is in this position right now. He deferred Boston last year (using the heat as an excuse) because he had an injured hip. This year, right now, he can't run because he has plantar fascitis. Three years ago, he had IT band problems. He went to the podiatrist, and the podiatrist suggested barefoot, because he's injured so much because his form sucks. (I agree - I've run with him. He gets sloppy when he runs fast.) But he's not going to do it because then he won't have time to train for Boston. But I don't think he's going to run Boston anyway because at this point, he hasn't run in a month and hasn't done a long run since early October.

 

[Zetti]

^ what SillyC said....except I will rant occasionally

 

[Bare Lee]

And while I use the roller on my calves before each run, my calves feel pretty tired by the end of a 6-8 mile run.

Not sure where your forefoot soreness is located, but if its in the top of the foot, it could be tight shin muscles tugging on the tendons there. Make sure to roll or massage your shin muscles as well as your calves. I had top of the foot pain (TOFP) for over a year, misdiagnosed by a sports doc as a stress reaction, before I realized it was 'referred pain' from my lower leg. Once I started regularly massaging and rolling my entire lower leg, front and back, and sides, the TOFP went away quickly.

 

[scedastic]

To be fair, though - Dave says he's in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Those shoes are pretty necessary now to keep warm.

I'm in the same area and a wuss about bf weather, so I'm mostly a minimal runner. I just wanted to extol the virtues of learning form by skin to ground as much as feasible.
Shoes have been on my feet when outdoors for longer than a few minutes since after a big warm up in December.

 

[BFwillie_g]

Hi Dave, welcome to the club

Nothing to add atm but just wanted to ecourage you to stay active in the forums, be sure to go through all the different sections of the website, educate yuorself.

Also, go barefot asap.

 

[Dave Flickinger]

Thanks again, everyone. Some great advice. Regarding TOFP, I never thought about rolling all over the lower leg. I've been putting the roller on the floor, setting my calf up on the roller, and just rolling that spot. No sides, no top. Today before I ran, I did the rest. I found much more pain when rolling those spots (especially outer side), similar to how it felt when I first started rolling the bottom.

I will continue to read other forums, take some of your advice, work on my form... Hopefully the warmer weather comes soon. Although I believe we're getting 2" of snow tonight.

 

[BFwillie_g]

Regarding TOFP, I never thought about rolling all over the lower leg. .....

Yeah, get really really active with your self-massage routines, it make a huge difference. In fact, while out running today, I was sort of scripting a video I've had in mind (for months ... years) show the things I do with massage balls.

I can sum it up here, actually, it's not rocket science (or anthropology). Get a massage ball (THIS KIND or some variation on the theme), make sue it's a firm one, and not too small. The yellows are about the right size (here in Germany).

Then, the easy thing everyone does and you'll see all over youdoob: put in on the floor and roll your foot over it. You can get two balls and roll both feet at the same time while watching Honey Boo Boo, FOX or MSNBC (basically the same thing).

My version: Stand up, really dig into your foot with the ball. You want to reach the fascia, tendons, muscles, bones. Really grind your foot over the ball. You should be able to observe the metatarsals spreading. Concentrate on single areas - the forefoot for a while, then the arch, then the heel, going right up around the bend to the Achilles.

That's the sole work.

This is where I really part ways with the status quo: squat down and use the ball over the top of the foot. This hurts. Like hell. (but feels good when you stop and really strengthens the foot). Press as hard as you can stand it. Run the ball lengthwise up and down the metatarsals, over the toes. Crosswise, too (ouch!).

The really nutty part: bang the top of the foot with the ball. Hammer up and down over the toes, along the metatarsals, etc, the whole foot. Hit as hard as you can stand it without really injuring yourself. Um ... yeah. You have to test your own limits.

And that's just the foot. Also roll the ball over the ankles, the shins (ouch), the full length of the Achilles. Go up to the knees with it, the Meniscus, Patella, behind the knee, all around the circumference. Rub good and hard. Experiment with circlular (vigorous, Nanook) motions, etc.

You can even go right up the ITB to the hip. You can foam-roller the ITB as well, of course (and you should be anytime you use the thing), but with the porcupine ball, you can go crosswise over the band, this gets in even deeper.

Something the porky ball isn't so good for is sitting on it to work the glutes, but you can use your foam roller (or pvc pipe) for that, or a larger, probably non-spiky, firm ball as well ...

There are gazillions of possibilities out there. Be brave, creative, and try new things. It's all about toughening, hardening, stimulating; preparing the bones, joints, tendons, ligaments, muscles, everything, to help keep the running experience a positive one

 

[Bare Lee]

Thanks again, everyone. Some great advice. Regarding TOFP, I never thought about rolling all over the lower leg. I've been putting the roller on the floor, setting my calf up on the roller, and just rolling that spot. No sides, no top. Today before I ran, I did the rest. I found much more pain when rolling those spots (especially outer side), similar to how it felt when I first started rolling the bottom.

Here's the article that clued me in about the shin muscles.
http://gobarefooting.wordpress.com/2010/04/21/injury-top-of-the-foot-pain/

And yah, the pain means you found the trigger points/knots/tightness. After or as you massage, you should feel a release or 'flush' in your foot.

In addition to Willie's ball recs, you might consider something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Stick-HD-1000-Little/dp/B001O0H436/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1359637472&sr=8-2&keywords=the travel stick

I also like this for really digging in:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Original-...e=UTF8&qid=1359637632&sr=1-1&keywords=knobble
Or just clump your fingers together and push in while wiggling them a bit. I also like sitting on a softball for my glutes, in addition to foam roller stuff for the upper legs, especially the iliotibial band.

And then I also like to stretch a lot, especially that iliotibial band stretch where you cross your legs standing up and then lean down to touch the ground. And I like to stretch out and massage the foot good too.

I've become pretty religious about this stuff, and it really helps.

 

[BFwillie_g]

And yah, the pain means you found the trigger points/knots/tightness. .

haha, reminded me of something I forgot to mention - if you find a spot that feels especially intense and painful... dig in deeper! lol

You oughta see the ear massages I do with my groups

 

[SillyC]

I'm in the same area and a wuss about bf weather, so I'm mostly a minimal runner. I just wanted to extol the virtues of learning form by skin to ground as much as feasible.
Shoes have been on my feet when outdoors for longer than a few minutes since after a big warm up in December.

Yeah, I live in Massachusetts (I've lived in Michigan before) and the weather here is similar. I've only been out twice barefoot since December. We've had the same subzero freezing nightmare that you guys have had this January. But yesterday, it got to 55. I went out bare... but the ground was SO COLD still from the previous weeks. And wet! And there was still snow and mud puddles, slush puddles, etc.

BUT - I ran 6.5 miles and my soles are completely fine. Goes to show ya it isn't sole toughness, but technique. ;-)

 

[JosephTree]

Ya, I really feel the ground temp. I think the cold ground exacerbates the nastiness of the road grit, too.