Mileage Reporting 42nd week of 2012

[NickW]

That sounds scary, I am glad nothing major happened specially when your child is involved.
Sounds like you were cruising along at a very good speed.
I keep telling myself that I should do some speed workouts but I just don't like that type of workouts.
Too old for that

You know Dama, when I was in the military I was forced into what's called ability group runs. I was too fast for the medium pace guys and too slow for the fast guys. What group do you think they put me in? The fast group. I hated every minute of it, but I tell you what I got faster, much faster. We ran 5 days a week and we ran fast and in formation, doing leapfrogs (this is where the person in the back would sprint to the front and sometimes as a treat once we got to the front we had to run back to the back and then to the front again). We often ran fast up a steep mountain, which I was always the slowest of the fast group up. But, when I left the military I was able to run 5min/miles sustained over 5 miles. We did the Honolulu half as a group at an 8 min/mile pace and I felt like it was snooresville it seemed so slow. I do not think the way we trained was great as far as injuries are concerned, but I do believe some of the things like pushing yourself really hard for short bursts are good in moderation. Obviously first and foremost one should listen to your body though. Really though, I believe run the way that makes you happy.

 

[Bare Lee]

I did look at your hairy legs but I rally have no clue as I have no medical training.
Have you ask the Doc's in here?
One thing I can tell you is that I don't think the injury is RR but more to do with your agressive weight training(maybe not agressive but I saw your schedule and it looks like a lot).
But like I said before I know squat.

OK, thanks for looking. Figuring out what the injury is or how it happened is becoming moot now anyway, I guess, as it heals, but I would like to prevent it from happening again, so gaining a little more understanding about what happened could still be useful.

I didn't bother with the Docs forum because I posted something there two months ago when I was having the top of the foot pain, and never heard from anyone. I understand they're busy and free medical advice without seeing a patient is hard to come by, so I'm not blaming anyone, just explaining why I haven't gone there. And anyway, I already got a live Doc's opinion, that it's nothing serious, but he's not an MD, but some kind of Sports Medicine guy.

Could be weight training related I agree, but that doesn't really make sense either. I only do one day a week that involves legs--my back day (the leg stuff on the workout routine I just posted is new, post-tweak). I did my back day on Monday of that week, pushing it a bit it's true, then had a real good seven-mile run the following day, then two days later the tweak happened, so I dunno. I didn't massage and stretch as much as I had been doing between runs, so that might have something to do with it. Maybe a tight lower leg muscle was pulling on a tendon that connects to that part of the knee. Plus the doc I saw said if lifts were to blame I'd probably be feeling it more in the back of the knee.

Anyway, probably not worth obsessing about anymore. Sometimes things just happen. My wife suspects witchcraft, so I guess I'll go with that for the time being, and undergo a ritual cleansing in the jacuzzi, keep icing for another few days, and then start running again and see how that goes.

Anyway, thanks for the input. I hope I didn't make you feel put upon or obligated to come up with something. You mentioned having various niggles that you've learned to deal with so I asked you about this on the off-chance that this kind of thing had been one of them.

OK, time to lift, then walk.

 

[Barefoot Dama]

You mentioned having various niggles that you've learned to deal with so I asked you about this on the off-chance that this kind of thing had been one of them.

Yea, I have had some niggles on an old ankle injury but never on the knee like yours.
Had a bout of ITBS about three years ago though.
Lee, lets face it, you're just too old

 

[Barefoot Dama]

You know Dama, when I was in the military I was forced into what's called ability group runs. I was too fast for the medium pace guys and too slow for the fast guys. What group do you think they put me in? The fast group. I hated every minute of it, but I tell you what I got faster, much faster. We ran 5 days a week and we ran fast and in formation, doing leapfrogs (this is where the person in the back would sprint to the front and sometimes as a treat once we got to the front we had to run back to the back and then to the front again). We often ran fast up a steep mountain, which I was always the slowest of the fast group up. But, when I left the military I was able to run 5min/miles sustained over 5 miles. We did the Honolulu half as a group at an 8 min/mile pace and I felt like it was snooresville it seemed so slow. I do not think the way we trained was great as far as injuries are concerned, but I do believe some of the things like pushing yourself really hard for short bursts are good in moderation. Obviously first and foremost one should listen to your body though. Really though, I believe run the way that makes you happy.

This is what I go by.

I know what you mean Nick, if I don't challenge myself how I am going to improve?
Like they say, if you want to be a fast runner you need to run fast runs.
I have decided that I am going to challenge myself(If I feel the urge)

 

[NickW]

This is what I go by.

I know what you mean Nick, if I don't challenge myself how I am going to improve?
Like they say, if you want to be a fast runner you need to run fast runs.
I have decided that I am going to challenge myself(If I feel the urge)

Well, some of the Maf people don't believe in the running fast equals you becoming a faster runner...

 

[Barefoot Dama]

Well, some of the Maf people don't believe in the running fast equals you becoming a faster runner...

Then there is that-rats! so much for that phylosophy but I rather try fast running than the Maf method.
Maf method drives my bananies.

 

[NickW]

Maf method drives my bananies.

Me too! I tried it for about 3 months. Funny, but at the same heart rate my pace slowed down over 5 minutes per mile doing the Maf thing. My distance on the other hand nearly doubled while doing Maf. I guess it comes down to personal preference. I would much rather run a short fast run than a long slow boring run. I also like to feel like I had a workout, kinda like I feel after going to the gym. Gives me a sense of accomplishment.

 

[Spiderweb62]

Today interval runs, 5x800m @ 5'/km...I did a total of 9.9km, and on Tuesday I did 9.1km slow run.

Now during my run today, I asked myself the question about cadence vs stride....

As you increase the speed, your cadence should go up, and your stride should remain steady, am I on the right track here ? I doubt that you need to increase your stride, right ?

 

[Barefoot Dama]

Me too! I tried it for about 3 months. Funny, but at the same heart rate my pace slowed down over 5 minutes per mile doing the Maf thing. My distance on the other hand nearly doubled while doing Maf. I guess it comes down to personal preference. I would much rather run a short fast run than a long slow boring run. I also like to feel like I had a workout, kinda like I feel after going to the gym. Gives me a sense of accomplishment.[/quote] Same here!

 

[NickW]

Today interval runs, 5x800m @ 5'/km...I did a total of 9.9km, and on Tuesday I did 9.1km slow run.

Now during my run today, I asked myself the question about cadence vs stride....

As you increase the speed, your cadence should go up, and your stride should remain steady, am I on the right track here ? I doubt that you need to increase your stride, right ?

My cadence is mostly steady, my stride gets longer, but not out in front of myself. More like my legs start going farther behind me and I nearly start kicking my own butt because my legs spring up and forward. My own experience though. I tried speeding up my cadence to increase my speed while keeping the same short strides and I felt like a car that was stuck in granny gear but you were trying to redline the engine to get it past 20mph. It hurt and felt super uncomfortable for me to try to increase the cadence but not my stride. Increasing your stride is a tricky thing though and you have to learn to do it the right way. Increasing your stride by putting your foot out in front of your body can cause more shearing forces on your soles as well as many other problems. Again though, it's really up to the individual.

 

[Abide]

Hey, if you could have a look at the photos I posted in last week's mileage reporting, I'd appreciate hearing any further ideas you may have about what happened or what ligament or tendon got strained. I tried to draw a dark circle on the spot where it's most painful to the touch.

That's in the vicinity of your IT band, sorry bro your F&^!*#... Get on that roller and bust those things down, and get a lacrosse ball and roll the hell out your hips.

 

[Spiderweb62]

My cadence is mostly steady, my stride gets longer, but not out in front of myself. More like my legs start going farther behind me and I nearly start kicking my own butt because my legs spring up and forward. My own experience though. I tried speeding up my cadence to increase my speed while keeping the same short strides and I felt like a car that was stuck in granny gear but you were trying to redline the engine to get it past 20mph. It hurt and felt super uncomfortable for me to try to increase the cadence but not my stride. Increasing your stride is a tricky thing though and you have to learn to do it the right way. Increasing your stride by putting your foot out in front of your body can cause more shearing forces on your soles as well as many other problems. Again though, it's really up to the individual.

Interesting, so it is up to the individuals then....

Well, for me increasing the cadence works better, I feel a strain in my groin when increasing my stride ....I go from around 180 to almost 200 steps per minutes when doing my intervals.

Also my lower legs do not go up higher behind me, they stay pretty close to the ground all the time, it would feel like there is some lost energy from lifting them too high

 

[Bare Lee]

That's in the vicinity of your IT band, sorry bro your F&^!*#... Get on that roller and bust those things down, and get a lacrosse ball and roll the hell out your hips.

Are you sure? It's on the inside of the knee, not the outside. I was almost wondering if it was a tendon connecting to the lower leg. I've tired looking at Gray's Anatomy type illustrations but nothing jumps out. I have been rolling, but not as vigilantly as when I'm running. It doesn't seem to bring any relief, but I'll try doing it 3-4 times a day and be more systematic about it. I went for a 2.2 mile walk today, and felt a little something about halfway through, then it felt fine. So it's getting better, but I just want to make sure I don't f^ck with it again once I start running. I did my back strength training beforehand, but at lighter weights to make sure I did mess it up there either. Didn't feel any problems on the lifts, but I went real easy on the squats--just did quarter squats at low weight. I also tried your good mornings with just a bar, and I'll definitely be incorporating those. Very nice.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. If you can think of any other possibilities, I'd appreciate hearing them. I'm willing to try just about anything. I just woke up after falling asleep for 30 minutes. Without running, I have trouble sleeping well. Now I'm having a SN torpedo, but it's a poor second option to running for getting a good night's sleep.

 

[Bare Lee]

Interesting, so it is up to the individuals then....

Well, for me increasing the cadence works better, I feel a strain in my groin when increasing my stride ....I go from around 180 to almost 200 steps per minutes when doing my intervals.

Also my lower legs do not go up higher behind me, they stay pretty close to the ground all the time, it would feel like there is some lost energy from lifting them too high

Mr. Spider Web, I've looked into this a bit, and, for what it's worth, this is what I've concluded:
1.) Speed is a function of stride rate and stride length.
2.) Both rate and length are effects, not causes. Stride rate is an effect of greater muscle activation; stride length is an effect of greater force application.
3.) Most runners increase both muscle activation and force application to achieve greater speed, and have a natural ability to adjust (or 'gear') the ratio of rate (activation) to length (force/torque) for optimal metabolic efficiency.
4.) If, however, you hold speed constant, and increase either muscle activation or force application, then the other variable must decrease.
5.) Both muscle activation and force application involve energy costs, so there is no inherent advantage in increasing one while holding the other constant (thus increasing speed) or decreasing it (maintaining speed constant). You are merely displacing the work of one by increasing the work of the other. If the ratio becomes sub-optimal as a result of these manipulations, you will tire more quickly.
6.) Nonetheless, different runners may favor one or the other side of the rate-length ratio, so that there exist rate-dominant runners, and length-dominant runners.
7.) For a rate-dominant runner, it may be useful to increase stride length/force application when fatigue sets in, in order to relieve muscle activation. For stride-dominant runners, it may be useful to increase stride rate/muscle activation when fatigue sets in, in order to relieve force application.
8.) For over-striders, typically those coming from a shod running background, it may be useful to consciously increase stride rate in order to decrease stride length, holding speed constant.
9.) For those with a good foot landing and posture, it is probably pointless to consciously manipulate stride rate (muscle activation) or stride length (force application).

 

[NickW]

Also my lower legs do not go up higher behind me, they stay pretty close to the ground all the time, it would feel like there is some lost energy from lifting them too high

I do not lift my feet high, it's a result of the natural spring in the legs. It naturally kind of flings up like that when going fast. When going slow I don't seem to get the same flinging reaction from the spring in the legs so my feet stay relatively low.

 

[Spiderweb62]

I do not lift my feet high, it's a result of the natural spring in the legs. It naturally kind of flings up like that when going fast. When going slow I don't seem to get the same flinging reaction from the spring in the legs so my feet stay relatively low.

Maybe I do this unconsciously as well, I will try to get my wife to capture that with a camera

And thanks Bare Lee for the extremely detailed explanation ! It makes lots of sense !!

 

[Abide]

Are you sure? It's on the inside of the knee, not the outside. I was almost wondering if it was a tendon connecting to the lower leg. I've tired looking at Gray's Anatomy type illustrations but nothing jumps out. I have been rolling, but not as vigilantly as when I'm running. It doesn't seem to bring any relief, but I'll try doing it 3-4 times a day and be more systematic about it. I went for a 2.2 mile walk today, and felt a little something about halfway through, then it felt fine. So it's getting better, but I just want to make sure I don't f^ck with it again once I start running. I did my back strength training beforehand, but at lighter weights to make sure I did mess it up there either. Didn't feel any problems on the lifts, but I went real easy on the squats--just did quarter squats at low weight. I also tried your good mornings with just a bar, and I'll definitely be incorporating those. Very nice.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. If you can think of any other possibilities, I'd appreciate hearing them. I'm willing to try just about anything. I just woke up after falling asleep for 30 minutes. Without running, I have trouble sleeping well. Now I'm having a SN torpedo, but it's a poor second option to running for getting a good night's sleep.

Ah sorry I see that now, that is definitley not ITBS then. I get occasional pain there and it is normally caused from squatting poorly, if I am not actively pushing my knees out or I let them go too far in front of my feet. Ususally rolling my quads and inner legs helps though.

Glad you like the good mornings, they are an excellent hamstring/glute excercise

 

[Bare Lee]

if I am not actively pushing my knees out or I let them go too far in front of my feet. Ususally rolling my quads and inner legs helps though.

Glad you like the good mornings, they are an excellent hamstring/glute excercise

Thanks for the squat tip, and I'll also be checking out the face pulls when I next do my top/shoulders day.

 

[happysongbird]

You know Dama, when I was in the military I was forced into what's called ability group runs. I was too fast for the medium pace guys and too slow for the fast guys. What group do you think they put me in? The fast group. I hated every minute of it, but I tell you what I got faster, much faster. We ran 5 days a week and we ran fast and in formation, doing leapfrogs (this is where the person in the back would sprint to the front and sometimes as a treat once we got to the front we had to run back to the back and then to the front again). We often ran fast up a steep mountain, which I was always the slowest of the fast group up. But, when I left the military I was able to run 5min/miles sustained over 5 miles. We did the Honolulu half as a group at an 8 min/mile pace and I felt like it was snooresville it seemed so slow. I do not think the way we trained was great as far as injuries are concerned, but I do believe some of the things like pushing yourself really hard for short bursts are good in moderation. Obviously first and foremost one should listen to your body though. Really though, I believe run the way that makes you happy.

When we run as a family I am always the slowest. I think it helps me trying to keep up, although it's not "quite" like the military. They are all a little concerned about me.

 

[Bare Lee]

When we run as a family I am always the slowest. I think it helps me trying to keep up, although it's not "quite" like the military. They are all a little concerned about me.

In other areas, I feel like having a family is forcing me to become a drill sergeant.