Lieberman’s Mystery Barefoot Heckler

[pbarker]

Does anyone know who the barefoot runner is in the following story.
I think it would be interesting to hear the runners story.


It started at a lecture he gave before the Boston Marathon. A barefoot runner peppered the professor with questions he couldn't answer. So Lieberman took him to his lab at Harvard University. He had him run over a flat metal plate that measures the collisional force of a footfall. But Lieberman was surprised by the extremely low force readings made by the barefoot runner.

"He ran across the force plate, and he didn't have [a high spike], and I thought, gee, that's really amazing, and it kind of makes sense because that spike of force hurts, and I wonder if other barefoot runners do that."

NPR all things considered.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123031997

 

[SillyC]

My guess would be Preston

My guess would be Preston Curtis.

 

[Barefoot TJ]

I just emailed him to ask

I just emailed him to ask him. They don't look like his legs, but that does sound like his personality. ;-) I'll let you know what he says.

 

[Paleo]

 I think that the overleaf

I think that the overleaf comments in the video have it wrong. They refer to a shockwave, which I don't recall from reading Liebermann's research. The issue is not the wave (up then down then up again), but rather the extreme steepness of the first spike. In other words, with heel landing, you go from 0 to nearly 3G's in almost no time (virtually 0 milliseconds). A forefoot landing also goes to nearly 3G's, but more slowly, thus resulting in a somewhat flatter curve, and less impact on the body per moment of time.

Part of Liebermann's point is that both types of running will exhibit a force of nearly 3 times the body weight. But, I have long wondered who the runner is in these videos, and whether he is really an experienced barefoot runner. I imagine that a truly experienced bfr would actually exhibit a lower overall force. The force comes largely from how high a runner lifts off the ground. Experienced bfr tend rather to minimize the vertical movement, which should thus lower the force.

Hopefully, this research will spawn more of its kind so that the scientists can really figure it out.

Do we know for certain that the heckler was also the one filmed in the videos? It could well be that Liebermann filmed and measured the heckler, but still posted videos of another subject.

 

[Barefoot TJ]

I just received word back

I just received word back from Preston. He said he thinks those are his legs, but he has written to Lieberman to ask him to be sure, since he doesn't want to take ownership of something that may not be his. My understanding is they have become good friends, and Preston visits him quite often, since he lives and works nearby. Preston has been running barefoot for about 14 to 15 years, so he is very experienced. I did ask him if he was also the barefoot runner who was drilling Lieberman, but he did not answer my question, so I asked him again. I will let you guys know what he says.

As far as the three times more shock, I have always understood that to apply to the shod runner, not the barefoot runner. I understood that impact forces were less with a barefoot runner due to the angle of the plant (non-heel striking) as well as the lack of padding (that is padding causes the runner to strike with more force, since psychologically, they are seeking the ground, not finding it, therefore pushing through). I will need to read through his study more to find the exact lines you are talking about, since it's best I have the most accurate info. Do you have an exact page, paragraph, line, etc., you can refer me to?

 

[stomper]

Paleo wrote:The issue is not

The issue is not the wave (up then down then up again), but rather the extreme steepness of the first spike. In other words, with heel landing, you go from 0 to nearly 3G's in almost no time (virtually 0 milliseconds). A forefoot landing also goes to nearly 3G's, but more slowly, thus resulting in a somewhat flatter curve, and less impact on the body per moment of time.

Yup, that is my reading of the findings in both the Lieberman et al (2010) and Kerrigan et al (2009) papers. See the Library for exact citations and abstracts.

 

[Barefoot TJ]

I was addressing the 3 times

I was addressing the 3 times shock factor though, not the way the charts are drawn.

 

[stomper]

Paleo, TJ, perhaps the

Paleo, TJ, perhaps the confusion here is that "shockwave" isn't a very technical term. "Shock" generally connotes a sudden force, but perhaps the appropriate thing to use is the formal definition of force, as in force=mass*acceleration.

I am not a physicist or engineer, but Lieberman's graphs show that the accumulated force in the first few moments of the landing (which would be the area under the graph, and I suppose would be in terms of newton-seconds) is much higher for shod than unshod runners, because of that nasty initial peak. But in the middle of the gait cycle both types of runners experience the same peak momentary force of around 2.4 body weights.

I'm not aware of any research looking into a difference in that peak momentary force, but I would be interested in hearing about some.

 

[Barefoot TJ]

Here's the latest from

Here's the latest from Preston. He didn't quite answer the question of whether or not he was the one questioning Lieberman.

Me: So do you think those are your legs? Did you in fact go to one of Dr. Lieberman's lectures (before he was a BFR convert and into the BFR "thinking"), and drill him about BFR questions? Please let us know if you hear back from Lieberman about who is in the video.

>>Preston: I have been going to that lab for 6 years. Way before Dr. Lieberman ran barefoot. actually, the vibes I got back then were not as positive from him as they have been in the past 18 months. I am not sure if he bought into it 6 years ago.

>>Just heard from Harvard. Those are the legs of a Harvard lab assistand to Dr. Lieberman. Not me. He ran track for Harvard and is not a barefoot runner though he does wear VFF from time to time.

 

[pbarker]

Thanks for the quick response

Thanks for the quick response TJ. I think we have more questions then answers here. Preston sounds like he may have a story to tell regardless if he was the heckler or not and certainly has insight into the research.

 

[Barefoot TJ]

Preston is one of the

Preston is one of the original co-founders of the BRS. He is a member here but doesn't post. Would you guys like me to invite him to this thread to see if he can answer any more questions about that insight?

 

[pbarker]

TJ   I ask to much of you.

TJ I ask to much of you.

He must know we are calling him out.

Preston come out to play

 

[Barefoot TJ]

I've asked him to join this

I've asked him to join this thread.

 

[Barefoot Runner]

Hi Everyone, Please ask

Hi Everyone,



Please ask your questions. TJ has directed me to this site. I am glad to answer them.



Please start out with a numbered list of questions and I will do my best to get the answers t oeach line.



Please pretend that I have not read this thread as I want to accurately answer your questions.



Sincerely,



Preston

 

[pbarker]

Preston. Thanks for

Preston.



Thanks for agreeing to answer some questions.

I will only ask three

1, Did you attend a pre Boston Marathon lecture by Dr Lieberman. A barefoot runner was there and asked Dr Lieberman a lot of questions. Dr Lieberman was unable to answer the questions so he had the runner come back to his lab to study his running. I am trying to find this barefoot runner and learn what were the questions he asked at the lecture.

2, Why did you start running barefoot.

3, What is your advice to a new barefoot runner



Cheers

PB

 

[Blind Boy]

stomper: The peak momentary

stomper: The peak momentary force should be pretty interesting to look into. It should be a function of the time spent airborne in each cycle. I think, if you were to compare a barefoot runner and a shod runner running at the same cadence and speed, you'd find the barefoot runner actually has a higher peak momentary force in the stance phase than a shod one since a barefoot runner spends more time in the air and as a consequence needs more vertical movement to keep it up.

 

[Barefoot Runner]

PB Wrote 1, Did you attend

PB Wrote



1, Did you attend a pre Boston Marathon lecture by Dr Lieberman. A barefoot runner was there and asked Dr Lieberman a lot of questions. Dr Lieberman was unable to answer the questions so he had the runner come back to his lab to study his running. I am trying to find this barefoot runner and learn what were the questions he asked at the lecture.

>>>I was not that person.

2, Why did you start running barefoot.

>>>I was living in CA near Ken Bob and was barefoot a lot living near the beach. The only time I was not barefoot was when I was running. I never thought about running barefoot even though I would be barefoot everywhere else. This because people would be barefoot out and about and that was OK, but I never saw or heard about anyone running barefoot. I had on the beach barefoot run myself but the thought stopped there.

From 29-34 I ran in pain with shoes on not knowing about barefoot running. I really had bad knees that hurt and cracked. At 34 I stopped running and told myself to wait 6 months. After that I would run the beach barefoot for 5 minutes and then wait a few days and run 5 minutes. This was really slow putting up 5 more minutes or so a run. The pain did not come back and after 40 minutes a session and 2 months I decided to "test" the asphalt road behind the beach cottages and see if running on the pavement barefoot would stave off the knee pain as it had on the beach. My issue with this in 1997 was not my feet. It was being the 1st barefoot runner that I have ever seen, that being myself. I was very self conscious about this in 1997 as there were no other known barefoot runners anywhere that I had seen or heard of. I chose the beach alley as I could shyly duck in between the houses and the beach paths to make people think I was running to the beach and not on the road so as not to be a "weirdo". Running on the pavement took about a week or so to really get good and was never the issue. I did get several small blistewrs in the 1st few weeks but that was it. I was sold. COMPLETELY.

Sevreral months later I get an email from a one Ken Bob Saxton in nearby Huntington Beach saying that he wanted to get a beach run group started. This was fortuitous and a meeting of 2 barefoot runners amongst otherr curious runners. Ken and I became friensds and would run together at a running club and my shyness and self consciousness was changed yto confidence of being seen in the public. Ken taught me about getting over the mental stuff more than the art of barefoot running. Though he did give me some helpful pointers for sure. He helped me bring me out of a shell in public running barefoot. Not that it was really bad as it may sound, but I think in 1997 it was new. No Born to Run, no Dr. Lieberman, not a lot of Internet buzz, etc. Ken Bob and I were the only ones we knew of in the country at te time. He set up his website www.therunningbarefoot.com in 1997 and the movement was born. Ken Bob really is the reason why barefoot running took off and I was right there with him. It kind of makes me #2.

3, What is your advice to a new barefoot runner

>>>Simple and WAY OVERLOOKED by most

Go barefoot more in your life.

If you show up to a workshop on and have anything on your feet, you have failed in my mind. One has to move about barefoot before they run as the body as to get used to barefoot movement. In addition, the feet have to get strong on the tops and have to develop a thin layer of leather. This will prevent pain/blisters when running for the 1st steps. The running aspect is easy. It comes naturally. It is the feet that need to get va thin layer of leather that is most important. This can not be achieved when people wear shoes all day and then just want to run barefoot. Even having a foot in a shoe all day creates over a pint of sweat and the foot gets moist and loses it's edge by not maintaining dry supple feet.

The next thing is start slow. Like I did on the beach. People should start really slow on the street. The street is the best place to start. NOT the beach or grass. The spring action is better on the hardest surface. The efficiency of driving on a road asphalt is better than dirt as a comparison.

Most people don't listen to their bodies/feet. Always prepare ahead of time by being barefoot more and keeping dry feet if that means wearing flip flops more when not able to be barefoot. Get the paper barefoot, rake the yard, think about reversing the need of a shoe. most people say I take off my shoes when...Think I have to put on a shoe when...

Everyone's running style is different as our bodies are all different. Run slow and relax feeling each step and the stride and see what works best for YOU. A basic method of front to rear of the foot/midfoot is good, but it can vary for each person.

Also reccomend videos from Harvard's barefoot running website and looking at others. In the end it is patience and dedication and getting your feet in shape.

Any more questions about this are welcome..



Preston







Cheers

PB

 

[pbarker]

PrestonThat was more than I

Preston

That was more than I expected.

The more I learn about barefoot running the more I realize that it is barefoot living that is important. I like the idea of putting shoes on when they are needed as opposed to taking them off when you need to.



Thanks for your answers and thanks for running down the beach.



Paul

 

[Barefoot TJ]

Loved what you had to say

Loved what you had to say there with number 3. Thanks, Preston.

 

[JosephTree]

Good stuff, and I thank

Good stuff, and I thank you.

Pioneers were usually the ones with the arrows sticking out of awkward places.