Carbo loading?

[Sid]

I wonder if part of the confusion in this thread is that distance runners do depend a great deal on fat metabolism. However, intramuscular glycogen is still a superior source of energy in terms of accessibility, and that's what I'm trying to maximize. I still have a fair amount of fat, so no need to maximize that.

I thought that this was a nice article that talked about energy systems and specific sports.
Energy Systems in Sport & Exercise

Table 2 in this chapter excerpt shows the different types of of muscle fibers and energy systems used, depending on the athlete. I suppose that one can't have it all.
Physiological Basis Of Exercise

 

[Sid]

I eat four meals a day, partly because I wake up pretty early

As for myself, since starting swimming, I've been getting up early. I don't usually eat until I get to work, several hours later. So apparently, I was missing the window of opportunity during the post-exercise insulin spike. Having a bagel right after, and replacing one of my morning protein bars with another bagel has fixed that. Another protein bar for lunch and maybe an apple. Then vegetables, fruit, some meat in the evening. Pretty boring. Nothing to see here, move along. Though, I'll probably add some whey protein before the workout.

As for tmi, I'm usually pretty good, unless there is maltitol or polydextrose or some other crap additive that manufacturers are adding to their bars, so that they can claim that their bars are low in sugar. The problem is that many manufacturers don't mark the change in ingredients, and keep the same name and labeling.

 

[Bare Lee]

I wonder if part of the confusion in this thread is that distance runners do depend a great deal on fat metabolism. However, intramuscular glycogen is still a superior source of energy in terms of accessibility, and that's what I'm trying to maximize. I still have a fair amount of fat, so no need to maximize that.

I thought that this was a nice article that talked about energy systems and specific sports.
Energy Systems in Sport & Exercise

Table 2 in this chapter excerpt shows the different types of of muscle fibers and energy systems used, depending on the athlete. I suppose that one can't have it all.
Physiological Basis Of Exercise

Good summaries. Magness and Hutchinson also do a good job of explaining this sort of thing. Let us know how your experiment works out in a week or two. For the time being, I'm going with this approach, taken from page 32 of the first article you posted:

"It is entirely possible to neglect any intentional action to promote recovery, because recovery will be achieved slowly by a spontaneous eating and drinking behavior guided by thirst and appetite.This natural course is sufficient for someone who has no particular athletic ambition and who has several days in front of him to fully recover until the next challenge. Someone whose primary motivation for practising sports is to control body weight and reduce body fat will not have to rush to restore his energy balance. On the other hand, those wishing to train often and hard for a rapid and injury-free progression, or those considering two or more demanding physical workouts with little interval between, will be aware of the need to shorten recovery and will want to take appropriate dietetic measures. Only active feeding practices, some-
times against one's "gut feelings" will yield optimal results.

None of my workouts are particularly intense, even my interval work and tempo runs, and any particular body part or type of muscle fiber has two or three days to recover, so I feel pretty good just obeying my appetites and thirst. And since my workouts/runs always begin around 4pm, after having digested three meals already, I always feel like I have plenty of energy. The one thing I should probably change is having a beer right after the workout/run, just before dinner.

 

[Sid]

The one thing I should probably change is having a beer right after the workout/run, just before dinner.

Wait, I must have missed that part! Then, if I show up tipsy to work, then I can just say it was part of my training regimen!

This post suggests that alcohol isn't particularly bad.
The Truth About Alcohol, Fat Loss and Muscle Growth

Although, this suggests that it's not particularly good for the storing glycogen after a workout, but that's a lot of alcohol!
Effect of alcohol intake on muscle glycogen storage after prolonged exercise

Perhaps, alcohol intake is best on a rest day? I don't drink, so I'll let the rest of you find out!

None of my workouts are particularly intense...

Since starting swimming, my running has been nonexistent. However, since I'm not a good swimmer, that means my workouts had been pretty much nonexistent until this week. I think this is allowing me to make quicker gains, since I have more energy and am spending more time in the pool. I'll do one swim across, rest for a minute or so, then repeat. So, I'm probably relying more on glycogen stores than fat. Plus, I'm never in the pool for more than an hour. I think that the articles suggested that short distance runners might benefit from carbs as well, perhaps for those who like to run fartleks?

 

[Bare Lee]

Wait, I must have missed that part! Then, if I show up tipsy to work, then I can just say it was part of my training regimen

This post suggests that alcohol isn't particularly bad.
The Truth About Alcohol, Fat Loss and Muscle Growth

Although, this suggests that it's not particularly good for the storing glycogen after a workout, but that's a lot of alcohol!
Effect of alcohol intake on muscle glycogen storage after prolonged exercise

Perhaps, alcohol intake is best on a rest day? I don't drink, so I'll let the rest of you find out!

Good to know. I like to have a beer before dinner, then a glass of wine with, so I guess I'm OK. Plus, like you and the author of the first article say, the guinea pigs in these studies drink a lot of alcohol, so the findings don't really concern moderate/minimal drinkers. But I guess wine has a lot less calories than beer, so perhaps I should just have two glasses of wine most of the time. But summer is on its way . . .

Since starting swimming, my running has been nonexistent. However, since I'm not a good swimmer, that means my workouts had been pretty much nonexistent until this week. I think this is allowing me to make quicker gains, since I have more energy and am spending more time in the pool. I'll do one swim across, rest for a minute or so, then repeat. So, I'm probably relying more on glycogen stores than fat. Plus, I'm never in the pool for more than an hour. I think that the articles suggested that short distance runners might benefit from carbs as well, perhaps for those who like to run fartleks?

I dunno, as you know, I've had a pretty active life for the most part, and never paid much attention to nutrition and timing and loading, and everything seems to work OK. I think most of these micro-adjustments really have value if you're doing high performance stuff. I mean, my 'speedwork' is running 7mm pace, which is basically jogging for a serious runner.

That said, perhaps if you're exercising first thing in the more on an empty stomach, it behooves you to pay closer attention to this stuff.

I do miss your running narratives over on the mileage forum though. Hope you don't do the dolphin/whale thing and turn into a mammalian fish forever.

 

[Sid]

I do miss your running narratives over on the mileage forum though. Hope you don't do the dolphin/whale thing and turn into a mammalian fish forever.

Well, I managed a microrun, about 0.1mi. Was at Disney World on the parking lot tram, and it was in the high 50s with 15-20mph wind. Had my lightweight jacket, which did nothing to block the wind. Ducking down behind the seats helped a bit. As I was freezing my butt off, I thought to myself, heck I could get off at the next stop and run to the car faster and warm up in the process. Had my Neos on. So next stop, off I went, running through the Disney parking lot. Felt all right. Legs still work. All good.

I've been spoiled by the trails. Thought about running early in the morning on a non-swim day, but the trails are too far away and not open when it's dark. When I get my swimming better, I still have the running backpack, so I might consider running to the gym to swim. We'll see.

Part of why I'm not running as much right now is that since I'm paying for swim lessons, I need to practice as much as I can. Otherwise that money goes to waste.

 

[Sid]

Today's swim went okay. Started running out of steam at about 20min, not so great at 30min, and lasted only 45min today. I don't think that I replenished enough on Sunday, after my 30min swim class. Usually, I'll have a bagel and protein powder right after a workout and then again 2 hours later. I figured that the swim class was only 30min (instead of a 50-60 min workout), and maybe I didn't need the 2nd bagel. Apparently, that one bagel didn't wasn't enough for replenishing. I'll try adding the second bagel after next week's class.

Calorie-wise, I'm not eating anything extra, now. I'm just having a bagel and protein, instead of a protein bar. I'm also making sure that I start eating right after working out to replenish, rather than waiting until later in the day. So, there are just some slight changes in food composition and nutrient timing.

To clarify, I don't eat simple carbs regularly any other time of the week (well, except for the once a week dining out with family). Most of the time, I'll have mostly fruits, veggies, protein bars, some meat. That's a holdover from my weight loss days, and it seemed to work pretty well, until I was able to sustain longer workouts, such as running. I just never felt that I had great energy, except after a weekending of eating out and inadvertently carbing up.

I'm trying to be more conscious about when I have simple carbs, and not just go on a cookie monster rampage on the weekends. This last weekend was fairly good by that standard. Dined out for lunch on Sat, and all of the other meals were reasonable. I think that having the bagels after workouts to replenish the glycogen stores has helped to control my appetite, as I'm not getting carb starved the rest of the week.

 

[Robin]

I always emphasize that people should get themselves tested so you know exactly what your intake should be.That way you can manage your needs!They're different for everybody.For hobby runners it may not be that important but still,it's nice to know.As for carb loading,it depends what you're up to,if your going to run an ultra you don't need to load that much carbs since in long races you should stay in your own aerobic threshold,where you burn mostly fat...again it's different for everybody and different workloads.

 

[Sid]

I always emphasize that people should get themselves tested so you know exactly what your intake should be.That way you can manage your needs!

Could you please clarify? Do you mean cholesterol, blood sugar and such? Or are you referring to a sports nutritionist?

 

[Robin]

No Sid I meant going to a sports-medicine center and getting a workload test.By which they can determine everything,heartrate,caloric intake per hour at all levels of heartrate,VO2max,this will give you the tools by which you can calculate not only how many calories your burn but also carbohydrates,protien,vitamines.After that you could take those results to a sports-nutritionist.Whatever you like,but they'll explain to you how to read those results in a manner which allows you to calculate it yourself.Now...where I live it is not that expensive( about 130euro,about 155USD).I don't know what it costs in the US.Let me know.greetz

 

[Bare Lee]

No Sid I meant going to a sports-medicine center and getting a workload test.By which they can determine everything,heartrate,caloric intake per hour at all levels of heartrate,VO2max,this will give you the tools by which you can calculate not only how many calories your burn but also carbohydrates,protien,vitamines.After that you could take those results to a sports-nutritionist.Whatever you like,but they'll explain to you how to read those results in a manner which allows you to calculate it yourself.Now...where I live it is not that expensive( about 130euro,about 155USD).I don't know what it costs in the US.Let me know.greetz

I like IPAs, can sports medicine cats tell me if this is the correct brew for my fitness level?

 

[NickW]

I like IPAs, can sports medicine cats tell me if this is the correct brew for my fitness level?

Smart alec!

 

[Sid]

No Sid I meant going to a sports-medicine center and getting a workload test. ... I don't know what it costs in the US.Let me know.greetz

I thinks it's about $300 or more. That could buy a lot of bagels!

 

[BFwillie_g]

I thinks it's about $300 or more. That could buy a lot of bagels!

That sounds about right. In my observations, anything medical will cost two to three times as much in the US compared to Europe. Well, Germany, anyway.

And over here the number one sports drink is Weizen Bier

 

[Bare Lee]

That sounds about right. In my observations, anything medical will cost two to three times as much in the US compared to Europe. Well, Germany, anyway.

And over here the number one sports drink is Weizen Bier

Just like our government, we have the best medical system that money can buy.

 

[BFwillie_g]

Just like our government, we have the best medical system that money can buy.

'best' is debatable, too. But not in this forum ...

 

[Bare Lee]

'best' is debatable, too. But not in this forum ...

Dude, you've been out of the country too long. That was intended sarcastically; "We have the best government/medical system that money can buy" = corruption by lobbyists/campaign donors/insurance companies, and so on.

 

[Robin]

I like IPAs, can sports medicine cats tell me if this is the correct brew for my fitness level?

Lee...you're a drunk! We're you born in Belgium perhaps?! lol

 

[Bare Lee]

Lee...you're a drunk! We're you born in Belgium perhaps?! lol

A light-weight like me could never compete with a Belgian! A couple of drinks and all I'm thinking about is water.

Good to hear from you!

 

[Sid]

Several of the articles discuss the 20-30min post-workout window for carb/protein replenishment. I didn't think much of it, but I usually do have my bagel and protein powder within that time frame, since I'm hungry afterwards. Yesterday, after my workout, I wasn't that hungry, so I ate about 45 minutes later. I ate normally the rest of the day.

This morning, I was feeling tired during my workout. I just didn't have the energy that I usually do, and I had a good night's sleep. Having done this for 3-4 weeks now, that was really the only significant deviation to what I usually do. I'm surprised that just those few minutes can make such a difference, in terms of replenishment.

There's also this article about burning fat, which says not to eat carbs after a workout. However, I'm not trying to burn fat, I'm trying to replenish my glycogen stores for consecutive workouts.
http://chadwaterbury.com/the-truth-about-post-workout-nutrition/

My best guess is that this stuff various according to activity and individuals, and everyone needs to figure out what works for them.