BF vs VFF in HM?

#21
I fully intend to run my 1/2M

I fully intend to run my 1/2M fully BF, which is May 1 too. The course includes a particularly rough stretch of gravely road and several miles of sanded pavement which I can't count on to be clear by May. (That so-called "sand" makes chip-seal feel like the sidewalk.) I'm with the BF crowd & on trying the course ahead of the race: I have run nearly the entire course twice and it really did seem easier the 2nd time. Not sure if it's in my head or my feet or both. TJ suggested once that my mind was becoming stronger. I think she's right. Anyway, there are still 5+ weeks to know for sure if I can do the whole thing bare but I'm confident that I can because I keep learning that my limits can be pushed beyond what I impose in my head, even if it means sacrificing some time to walk over some of the brutal stuff. Abide has a good point about deciding whether you're running for time or just to do it bare and have fun. Personally, my goals are BF distance first, then time.

Good luck JT.
 
#22
I fully intend to run my 1/2M

I fully intend to run my 1/2M fully BF, which is May 1 too. The course includes a particularly rough stretch of gravely road and several miles of sanded pavement which I can't count on to be clear by May. (That so-called "sand" makes chip-seal feel like the sidewalk.) I'm with the BF crowd & on trying the course ahead of the race: I have run nearly the entire course twice and it really did seem easier the 2nd time. Not sure if it's in my head or my feet or both. TJ suggested once that my mind was becoming stronger. I think she's right. Anyway, there are still 5+ weeks to know for sure if I can do the whole thing bare but I'm confident that I can because I keep learning that my limits can be pushed beyond what I impose in my head, even if it means sacrificing some time to walk over some of the brutal stuff. Abide has a good point about deciding whether you're running for time or just to do it bare and have fun. Personally, my goals are BF distance first, then time.

Good luck JT.
 
#23
Wow!  What a great

Wow! What a great discussion! I think Huaraches might be my next step in arming my feet for the rough world. I love to run barefoot, but think regular trail running is quite "nutritious" enough, and I don't feel the need to flay my poor soles to prove anything.

...and SaraLord, I'm deeply impressed that you can flex enough to work on your own soles with the tweezers. I have to enlist pedi-slaves.
 
#24
Barefoot TJ wrote:In order

Barefoot TJ said:
In order to get to that "natural" running gait, MOST of us have to first relearn how to run, and that means shedding all footwear and starting from scratch. Otherwise, what happens is we see too many people suffering from too much too soon. This is where the Barefoot can't be beat thinking comes in. MOST people who truly make the sacrifice to ditch the shoes, their speed, and their distance and start over don't suffer from TMTS/overuse injuries. It's the ones who make the jump from traditional footwear to minimal thinking that they can continue running at the same pace and at the same distances who end up getting injured. Barefoot is NOT overrated; in fact, it can't be emphasized enough.
Click to expand...

Clearly you are directing your comments to me. I already stated I am supportive of going fully bare during the learning stages. Though do have some mixed feelings as you will read later. Once you had a good time to be sure your natural running gait is correct. Your body is not going to punish you for putting 4mm, or whatever under your foot. Take a look at the health forum look at all the folks reporting BF running injuries. Those are all mostly TMTS. TMTS happens with, or without footwear. TMTS is caused simply by not listening to your body. It is that simple. Your body does a very good job of "speaking" to you. We are just not trained on what to listen for, or we are too busy to pay attention.

Frankly I don't promote any min running shoe except for huraches. Because I do not like the design flaws on many of the shoes being released. I understand folks have winter needs so you do what you have to do. Again I focus on using a natural ruuning gait. As this is what BF running is. People are going to injure themselves with, or without shoes. Any time you continue to "move" the body imbalances, and injuries will occur. The health forum documents this on a regular basis. Of course during early stages of transition the risk of injury is increased. Folks do not realize how weak our feet are from many years of using conventional shoes.

You are using "barefoot running" similar to a gym using the term "cardio". Cardio is GPP (general physical prepardness). That is what cardio was called before it became marketable. Cardio is a easier term to market. Same with barefoot running. Your marketing "running with a natural gait", but it's easier to coin it as "barefoot running". Realistically you could transition the same in huraches as BF. The problem is not the footwear. The problem is the runner not following the transition recommendations properly. TMTS threads will appear commonly on BRS as well as VFF forums. As long as we move as a society we will injure ourselves.

I agree sort of with most of what folks say. We all agree a natural running gait is more healthy then a heel strike runner.

My main disagreement is how the term "barefoot" is being marketed. The term is not fair cause many folks blow off the whole idea when they see barefoot as BF is the focus on the cover. If we promoted running with a natural gait it could most certainly be a "gateway drug" to BF if the individual desires.

The various shoe designs itself is a whole other ball of wax. I was looking, and discussing shoe design long before I ever considered BF running. I was in the gym BF long before I ever BF run. To me the real beast is the shoe. If you shed the conventional shoe you will naturally give up on heel striking. For some of us a natural running gait comes more natural to learn, and others not so much.

Frankly I don't care what the overall community promotes. I understand biomechanics very well, and I have adapted things to my needs. While my neighbor is "running for the next event". I'm on the trails getting my feet dirty, running on the beach BF. While doing those things feeling, listening to the environment and enjoying the moment. The distance/time of mile is not important to me. Living in the moment with a smile is the importance, and getting a sweet workout.

Market it however you choose. It does not matter to me cause I pick, and choose what I need. Thinking outside the box is my nature. I run trails, beach, and hate asphalt. That should be a clue to my unconventional thinking. I'm another sub culture within a sub culture. Locally I could get numerous people to agree on these forward thinking ideas. I guess the forward thinking is just part of the isolated extreme northern California coast. It's a artistic, creative community in many forms that thinks outside the box. Though I grew up in Philly so I'm not shy, and very vocal if you want to debate on this topic I'll play as long as you desire. However I'm already bored on the topic. So I don't know. Maybe we should all be out running instead of sitting in front of a computer screen bickering......
 
#25
I can't believe I read that

I can't believe I read that whole thing!

Just so you promote barefoot first, I have no problem. Again, Barefoot is not overrated and can't be emphazsized enough especially when relearning how to run the right way.

I don't believe that those who ditch their traditional shoes and run truly bare suffer the same TMTS injuries when starting out. Their plantar skin's lack of conditioning prevents this. I would guess that the majority of the TMTS injuries come from those who go from traditional footwear to minimalist footwear because when you cover the soles, you provide a false sense of protection, which allows the wearer to make certain assumptions that can end up being injurous, such as distance and speed.

BTW, I was bred, born, and raised in California. It's best to "bicker" without trying to put people in a box, that is, place yourself above one.
 
#26
JosephTree wrote:Wow!  What

JosephTree said:
Wow! What a great discussion! I think Huaraches might be my next step in arming my feet for the rough world. I love to run barefoot, but think regular trail running is quite "nutritious" enough, and I don't feel the need to flay my poor soles to prove anything.

...and SaraLord, I'm deeply impressed that you can flex enough to work on your own soles with the tweezers. I have to enlist pedi-slaves.
Click to expand...

The trick with huraches is you have to figure out what thickness you want....
 
#27
Barefoot TJ wrote:BTW, I was

Barefoot TJ said:
BTW, I was bred, born, and raised in California. It's best to "bicker" without trying to put people in a box, that is, place yourself above one.
Click to expand...

CA>bicker>box. "place yourself above one" Place myself above a (box) ? I take it you did not like what I said. Is above one a bad thing ?

On your home page. You have a fellow doing a series of videos. Which is basically to promote a shoe company. He has two new BF runners in the video. Teaching them to run BF in shoes. If your so sincere about starting to learn BF running truely BF. Whay would you put these videos/article on your front page of the BRS web site. Wouldn't you rather promote videos with true BF ? Is the shoe company sponsoring you in some way ? Cause the message you just told me it is best to learn true BF. Why include on the site links that promote otherwise ?
 
#28
Do you not see how you try to

Do you not see how you try to put others inside the box, yet place yourself "above" them? Do you not see how rude you sound when you say things like this?

Thinking outside the box is my nature. I run trails, beach, and hate asphalt. That should be a clue to my unconventional thinking. I'm another sub culture within a sub culture. Locally I could get numerous people to agree on these forward thinking ideas. I guess the forward thinking is just part of the isolated extreme northern California coast. It's a artistic, creative community in many forms that thinks outside the box.

You wouldn't be over here bitching, er uh, bickering if it weren't for my unconventional, outside the box thinking. Think about it.

H.E. I'm going to say it like it is because you seem like a straight-forward kinda guy who can handle it. You have been rude to several people on this site since you've been here. Lighten up and stop being so defensive about every little thing. You might actually make some friends.
 
#29
Again, the purpose of the

Again, the purpose of the Barefoot Runners Society...

We are a barefoot AND minimalist running club. We support both the barefoot AND minimalist runner. We prefer people to FIRST LEARN TO RUN BAREFOOT before donning any footwear and only doing so after they have learned to run with proper form first.

We also realize that not everyone can run barefoot at all times under all conditions. (Those people in the video are running in freezing conditions, snow.) Therefore, we believe it is very important to provide the members with information that will help them to make informed, healthy decisions about what to put on their feet. This is why we dedicated the fall edition of the Run Free newsletter to minimalist footwear, knowing that many people were going to have to put something on their feet come winter. Check it out here: http://www.barefootrunners.org/page/newsletter How much did we get paid for that? Nothing. Labor of love. Trust me. If the club ever turns a profit, you'll know it. ;-)

We realize that most people are not going to choose to run pure barefoot in the end. That is fine. As long as they can find support along the way and have multiple minimalist footwear options to choose from that will help them to run with less injuries, that is what is most important.
 
#30
*braces for rant* :shock:"

*braces for rant*

shock.png
 
#31
What are you shocked about?

What are you shocked about?
 
#32
There's no "squinting and

There's no "squinting and grimancing in preparation for expected going on and on over-reaction to a helpful and polite response" smiley. It was the closest I could find.
 
#34
Hahahaha!  That was funny! 

Hahahaha! That was funny! You crack me up, DB!
 
#35
Barefoot TJ wrote: I don't

Barefoot TJ said:
I don't believe that those who ditch their traditional shoes and run truly bare suffer the same TMTS injuries when starting out. Their plantar skin's lack of conditioning prevents this. I would guess that the majority of the TMTS injuries come from those who go from traditional footwear to minimalist footwear because when you cover the soles, you provide a false sense of protection, which allows the wearer to make certain assumptions that can end up being injurous, such as distance and speed.
Click to expand...



So true! When I decided to run barefoot, I started barefoot. I didn't have a pair of Vibrams, or any mininal footwear. My body didn't allow me to go further, or over do it because my feet didn't allow me.

Most of injuries I read about are people who run in minimal footwear.
 
#36
Precisely.  My only interest

Precisely. My only interest in this conversation is to help people understand that it is best to relearn how to run first by shedding the shoes completely, then only incorporating footwear when/as needed. That's why I advised the OP to run barefoot and carry his VFFs should he feel he need them at some point in the race.

Some people may not be able to do run completely barefoot from the get-go. We got that. They may have health conditions (severe osteoporosis, diabetes, ciculatory conditions, etc.) that would prohibit them from doing so; others may live in areas where the terrain is always extreme, and most of us at some point live where we experience extreme weather/temps at some point during the year. In that case, shouldn't we help guide them to find the safest minimalist option out there? Isn't that the responsible thing to do? I mean, you all know what shoes did to me. I could be like, "All shoes are evil," but I'm not. I understand that shoes have a purpose. I also understand how devastating the wrong kind of footwear can be, and I feel I have a responsibility in my situation to help others not make the same mistakes I have by wearing the wrong kinds of shoes.

There were six of us that started the BRS. Two of us were purists, two of us were minimalists, and two of us were somewhere in between. When we started the BRS, it was important to include all flavors of the barefoot/minimalist movement, not just focus on purism. We are realists after all. (We don't just think outside of the box; we think far beyond it.) Like I've said before, we know that not everyone will choose to run purely barefoot in the end. In this case, why not help them to make the best possible decision about the footwear they do put on their feet? And why not support those companies who are trying to appeal to this very small but growing audience of minimalists? The more we support them, the better, more healthy footwear options we will have. It's all good, and it's good for all of us.
 
#38
I think these kinds of

I think these kinds of threads are healthy. They help us to grow, both individually and as a group.
 
#39
And...  although the way the

And... although the way the question was asked wasn't pleasant, it is a good question that needs to be asked from time-to-time to make sure everyone is on the same page about where the BRS stands with footwear and why.
 
#40
Only now that I am

Only now that I am exclusively BF am I finally healing from the TMTS from VFFs, flats and water shoes I kept wearing intermittently for longer distance days. Yeah, I did have to sacrifice distance and time to let my feet, ankles, and calves adjust and it has taken me 6 months to finally build back up to a slow 10 1/2 mi (BF).

I guess because I'm a literal person, in my head Barefoot= BF = no shoes= no socks=no duct tape, and I'm assuming that many, if not most, of us here refer to skin when we type BF and mean minimal when we say so.
 
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