More of less or less of more?

[Bare Lee]

You should have the most joy when you maintain your best running technique.

I did some intervals two days ago, which included close to all-out sprinting at the end. It's true, the faster I run, the better my form feels. The threshold seems to be around the 8-minute-mile mark--that's where it starts to feel pretty smooth, and joyous.

 

[barefootandagile]

Barelee,

What is it that you are doing differently at those other speeds that is causing your run to be less joyous??

 

[Bare Lee]

Barelee,

What is it that you are doing differently at those other speeds that is causing your run to be less joyous??

Plodding.

Just had a trail run of a little under four miles. I ran it a little faster than normal, and then pretty fast for the last 1/4 mile or so. It felt great. I guess the problem is I used to be pretty fast growing up, and stayed in decent shape until middle age, then got out of shape for several years, but now want to recapture that feeling of going (relatively) fast again. But most recreational runners, barefoot or shod, do long and slow, so I adopted that approach when I got back into running in 2010. Then it occurred to me one day not too long ago that there was nothing stopping me from running intervals or sprints or whatever I damn well wanted. The do-such-and-such-distance-at-a-certain-steady-pace paradigm fell by the wayside. "I'm a recreational runner damn it," I said to myself, "so let me recreate." And faster running is definitely more joyous/recreational for me than long and slow. Not that I'm putting down long distance running, or saying I will never try it, but right now it feels best keeping it short and sweat, er, I mean fast. And when I say fast, I realize it's still pretty slow for people like you.

So the idea is to keep things in the 3-5 miles range doing (half-assed) intervals and hills until I can consistently run 7-to-8-minute miles, and then begin building up distances again. But this could all change next week.

 

[barefootandagile]

Plodding.

Just had a trail run of a little under four miles. I ran it a little faster than normal, and then pretty fast for the last 1/4 mile or so. It felt great. I guess the problem is I used to be pretty fast growing up, and stayed in decent shape until middle age, then got out of shape for several years, but now want to recapture that feeling of going (relatively) fast again. But most recreational runners, barefoot or shod, do long and slow, so I adopted that approach when I got back into running in 2010. Then it occurred to me one day not too long ago that there was nothing stopping me from running intervals or sprints or whatever I damn well wanted. The do-such-and-such-distance-at-a-certain-steady-pace paradigm fell by the wayside. "I'm a recreational runner damn it," I said to myself, "so let me recreate." And faster running is definitely more joyous/recreational for me than long and slow. Not that I'm putting down long distance running, or saying I will never try it, but right now it feels best keeping it short and sweat, er, I mean fast. And when I say fast, I realize it's still pretty slow for people like you.

So the idea is to keep things in the 3-5 miles range doing (half-assed) intervals and hills until I can consistently run 7-to-8-minute miles, and then begin building up distances again. But this could all change next week.

Avoiding running at other speeds isn't really the best way to find joy. Perhaps you should examine what is about slower running that brings you no joy and then you can embrace the joy found at every running speed ;-)

 

[Bare Lee]

Avoiding running at other speeds isn't really the best way to find joy. Perhaps you should examine what is about slower running that brings you no joy and then you can embrace the joy found at every running speed ;-)

Like I said, I have examined it, and it's the plodding feeling I don't like. I don't see any reason to embrace it when I already know what I do like and am capable of attaining that particular joy/recreation. I suppose if I were more enlightened I would be able to find joy/recreation in everything, including doing nothing, but I remain earthbound and limited and have learned to live with it, by bounding across this boundedness unboundedly .

 

[JosephTree]

One other consideration for going longer, especially for somewhat more experienced runners, is economic. I don't want to watch my racing investment (fee) mature in 20 minutes or so. If I'm going to pay to run, it's going to be for a longer race!

 

[Bare Lee]

One other consideration for going longer, especially for somewhat more experienced runners, is economic. I don't want to watch my racing investment (fee) mature in 20 minutes or so. If I'm going to pay to run, it's going to be for a longer race!

True dat, provided they don't charge by the mile. I usually negotiate a derivative package whereby I get discounted at increasing rates in proportion to my pace, cadence and stride length, which are weighted differentially in a complex algorithm to give a base number based on a 147-point scale in all the races I don't run.

 

[barefootandagile]

Like I said, I have examined it, and it's the plodding feeling I don't like. I don't see any reason to embrace it when I already know what I do like and am capable of attaining that particular joy/recreation. I suppose if I were more enlightened I would be able to find joy/recreation in everything, including doing nothing, but I remain earthbound and limited and have learned to live with it, by bounding across this boundedness unboundedly .

Tell me about this plodding feeling you have when going at slower paces? That is not my experience that when I run slower. The main differences for me are range of motion of legs and stride. Cadence and springy elasticity of muscles stays the same.

 

[Last Place Jason]

I can totally relate BL. I'm not a fan of the consistent long, slow runs. The problem is I need some long runs to train for races. My solution, which has been working exceptionally well, is to do long Fartlek-ish runs. If I'm doing a 20 miler, I typically run at a slowish pace until I get to something interesting like a flat open area or a hill, then run fast over the distance. I'll either stop or walk to recover, then "jog' to the next interesting obstacle.

Mentally it makes the longer distances FAR more entertaining. The plodding becomes more of a recovery thing and a means of locomotion to the fun stuff which makes it tolerable (and necessary).

From a training standpoint, it has resulted in better fitness as measured by heart rate at various paces and lowered PRs in trail ultras.

In races, I tend to use the same sort of strategy. I just don't push nearly as hard to conserve energy stores.

The down side- it probably annoys those that run with me for the first time. I'll run ahead, fall behind, and occasionally sprint past them.

 

[NickW]

I can understand the plodding feeling. When running faster I feel like I am light and springy and my form snaps into place and I find a place of bliss. When running slow, while I enjoy it, it's a totally different feeling and makes your run longer (timewise). Some people like me, enjoy running fast. It just is fun to go fast. It's like what is more fun, to drive a race car really fast, or to just idle around the track? I think a lot of people would say driving it really fast would be more fun. That's kind of how I feel about running fast.

 

[barefootandagile]

I can totally relate BL. I'm not a fan of the consistent long, slow runs. The problem is I need some long runs to train for races. My solution, which has been working exceptionally well, is to do long Fartlek-ish runs. If I'm doing a 20 miler, I typically run at a slowish pace until I get to something interesting like a flat open area or a hill, then run fast over the distance. I'll either stop or walk to recover, then "jog' to the next interesting obstacle.

Mentally it makes the longer distances FAR more entertaining. The plodding becomes more of a recovery thing and a means of locomotion to the fun stuff which makes it tolerable (and necessary).

From a training standpoint, it has resulted in better fitness as measured by heart rate at various paces and lowered PRs in trail ultras.

In races, I tend to use the same sort of strategy. I just don't push nearly as hard to conserve energy stores.

The down side- it probably annoys those that run with me for the first time. I'll run ahead, fall behind, and occasionally sprint past them.

I can understand finding slower running boring or less challenging. It is the plodding I dont get

 

[barefootandagile]

I can understand the plodding feeling. When running faster I feel like I am light and springy and my form snaps into place and I find a place of bliss. When running slow, while I enjoy it, it's a totally different feeling and makes your run longer (timewise). Some people like me, enjoy running fast. It just is fun to go fast. It's like what is more fun, to drive a race car really fast, or to just idle around the track? I think a lot of people would say driving it really fast would be more fun. That's kind of how I feel about running fast.

It is possible that how you are running(technique wise) is why you are experienceing this sensation.

 

[Bare Lee]

I can totally relate BL. I'm not a fan of the consistent long, slow runs. The problem is I need some long runs to train for races. My solution, which has been working exceptionally well, is to do long Fartlek-ish runs. If I'm doing a 20 miler, I typically run at a slowish pace until I get to something interesting like a flat open area or a hill, then run fast over the distance. I'll either stop or walk to recover, then "jog' to the next interesting obstacle.

Mentally it makes the longer distances FAR more entertaining. The plodding becomes more of a recovery thing and a means of locomotion to the fun stuff which makes it tolerable (and necessary).

From a training standpoint, it has resulted in better fitness as measured by heart rate at various paces and lowered PRs in trail ultras.

In races, I tend to use the same sort of strategy. I just don't push nearly as hard to conserve energy stores.

The down side- it probably annoys those that run with me for the first time. I'll run ahead, fall behind, and occasionally sprint past them.

Yeah, as I wrote above somewhere, I tried the fartlek (literally "speed-play" -- kind of the runner's equivalent of 'foreplay') or a half-assed interval approach this week and loved it. The time went by faster and it was more fun. And I also feel like it's better for my overall fitness, although it's a little early to be sure.

Mind you when I say I don't like long and slow, I mean long and slow at my current long and slow pace. Once I get faster, I'll probably do at least one long and slow run per week. I do like getting into that deep, meditative zone that comes from a steady pace with relaxed breathing. The workout schedule I feel myself heading towards is one hills run, one fartlek run, and one or two long slow runs (preferably on trails), per week. In any case, the experimentation is a lot of fun.

 

[Bare Lee]

It is possible that how you are running(technique wise) is why you are experienceing this sensation.

For me at least, when I say "plodding" I'm describing a feeling more than actual form, although I am also convinced my form is smoother at faster paces too. If this is a defect in my technique, so be it; I hope to leave the plodding pace behind me in short order.

 

[barefootandagile]

For me at least, when I say "plodding" I'm describing a feeling more than actual form, although I am also convinced my form is smoother at faster paces too. If this is a defect in my technique, so be it; I hope to leave the plodding pace behind me in short order.

Sounds like you are abit confused but it will be interesting to hear of your progression

 

[Bare Lee]

Sounds like you are abit confused but it will be interesting to hear of your progression

Yes, I'm hoping my confusion will lead to great progress.

 

[Lomad]

Lee, I get the 'plodding' thing completely. I've just gotten back to where sis milers are even part of my vocabulary. Trying to be careful, i've kept my longer runs at slower pace to build stamina. It's boring as all he!!.

I can't remember the thread it's in, but we were discussing knee pain and min/bare running; I just saw an item in a magazine drawing correlation between minimal/barefoot running and prepatellar bursitis (I have it, and it flares on occasion. i had never linked it to my barefoot running knee ache, though...). In my experience the longer slower runs leave me achier than shorter, tempo-based efforts. It does feel more repetitive than faster running. i may move my longer runs entirely to trails so that there is more variability in my movements to see if it makes a difference. Who knows...

Unrelated- I've just found out, at age 38.75 that I have asthma. I'm takng a rest week while I work in the preventative inhaler medication I was prescribed, to get my lungs opened up. I plan to inch my pace up a bit on all runs to lessen that "plodding slog" feelings as my mileage increases (I have some longer races on the horizon: 220 mile team relay, and a trail half-marathon).

 

[barefootandagile]

Perhaps some else could explain why that feel like they are plodding when running slower paces?

 

[Lomad]

Agile, Here's dictionary.com's definition of plod. looking at definitions 2 and 3 will give you a sense of what is meant by 'plodding,' at least in my case. It isn't a physical thing. It's a mental state. When I am on a long, slow run sometimes it feels monotonous and a bit tedious. Pretty straightforward, really.



plod

   [plod] Show IPA verb, plod·ded, plod·ding,noun​

verb (used without object)

1.​

to walk heavily or move laboriously; trudge: to plod under theweight of a burden.

2.​

to proceed in a tediously slow manner: The play just ploddedalong in the second act.

3.​

to work with constant and monotonous perseverance;drudge.



​

 

[barefootandagile]

Agile, Here's dictionary.com's definition of plod. looking at definitions 2 and 3 will give you a sense of what is meant by 'plodding,' at least in my case. It isn't a physical thing. It's a mental state. When I am on a long, slow run sometimes it feels monotonous and a bit tedious. Pretty straightforward, really.



plod

   [plod] Show IPA verb, plod·ded, plod·ding,noun​

verb (used without object)

1.​

to walk heavily or move laboriously; trudge: to plod under theweight of a burden.

2.​

to proceed in a tediously slow manner: The play just ploddedalong in the second act.

3.​

to work with constant and monotonous perseverance;drudge.



​

Yes, I am aware of the definition of plodding is. If one is running and feeling that way it is correctable via change in how one runs via technique.