More of less or less of more?

[Bare Lee]

I can't offer a lot of what does work, since I'm only an expert at what doesn't. I'm back at ground zero after a month off with tendonitis.

I do think though that having variety in training is an important principle to follow.....whether you follow a plan to do so, or just walk out your door and decide what you feel like doing on that day.

Good to have you back. I hope the rest fixed the problem!

 

[Barefoot Gentile]

I think it's a great question to ask, and would be interesting to hear more of people's opinions. I kind of flip flop with both speed and distance throughout the year, I just like to mix things up. Nothing like the feeling of running a fast 5 miler, or going out for a nice LSD run.

 

[Bare Lee]

I'm more like the "run every other day and call it wonderful" sort of trainer. I can't think of any excuse beyond youthful exuberance to run 2 days in a row. My body just doesn't like that. On the other hand, I do like the idea of running faster, within reason, and am willing to do such things as the Maffetone heart rate based training, at least, as well as I can without a real HR Monitor. Doing this kind of running, which is mostly LSD, with some hills thrown in for challenges, I've brought my 10 mile and Half times down from more than 9 minute miles to less than 8's. Good enough for me for a year's progress.

Now I'm going into my "trail race" season, and times don't equate so well, but the feeling of strength and trail competence is real important. That's what I will train for more than anything. Well, that, and the general and profound joy of running at all.

Maybe this is kind of blathery, but I hope it contributes a little to the considerations.

That's how I've done it before. Always every other day. So running less but every day would be something new for me. I could switch between the two styles I guess, on a weekly, monthly, or seasonal basis. Like you said, the main thing is the joy of running.

 

[barefootandagile]

(Re-reading this now)
That's what I expected to see--TOFP, sore calves, etc., but I also saw a lot of 'traditional' ailments, like runner's knee, brought up in the forum. So irrespective of heavy shod, lite shod, or barefoot running, I'm wondering what's the best way to guard against repetitive stress hosing (to use Pirate's jargon): more of less, or less of more? I should have made this clearer.

Running technique might have a little to do with it ;-)

 

[Bare Lee]

Running technique might have a little to do with it ;-)

No doubt, but I think repetitive stress /over-use injury may still be a possibility no matter how good your technique.

Have you noticed any difference between the longer distance runners and the milers/sprinters like you?

 

[barefootandagile]

Barelee,

Could you rephrase the question? Not quite following you.....

 

[Bare Lee]

Barelee,

Could you rephrase the question? Not quite following you.....

Are distance runners any more susceptible to repetitive stress or over-use injury than shorter distance runners like you? Presumably you follow very different training regimens, the former doing more high volume, the latter doing more high intensity.

 

[barefootandagile]

Barelee,

It isn't just a coincidence that many/most recreational runners don't do speed intervals. Yes, in my experience speed is higher risk than long slow running.

 

[Bare Lee]

Barelee,

It isn't just a coincidence that many/most recreational runners don't do speed intervals. Yes, in my experience speed is higher risk than long slow running.

Thanks for the feedback. If I continue to do more speed work, is there anything in particular I can do to avoid injury, besides adopting good form?

 

[barefootandagile]

Barelee,

Start with small amounts at slower paces and gradually allow your body to adapt to more and faster. When you get as fast and as far as you want to go then stop and enjoy what you have accomplished. You should have the most joy when you maintain your best running technique.

 

[Last Place Jason]

I think the barefoot/distance bias comes from the origins of the modern barefoot movement. When I started, the three people with an internet were two marathoners and an ultrarunner (Ken Bob, Rick, and Ted). All of the next wave of runners that developed an internet presence were distance runners. Even though I run shorter races, I rarely talk about them. When I antagonize people to sign up for races, I suggest ultras not 5ks. It's more of my own bias than anything else. I really don't know too many barefoot short distance runners. Josh Sutcliffe and James Webber come to mind, but neither really teaches about barefoot running.

As far as injuries, changing from one form of running to another doesn't eliminate injuries, it simply shifts the location of occurrence. I suspect going from an overstriding heel strike to a gentle midfoot-under-COG style will result in a net decrease, but it certainly doesn't make us bulletproof.

 

[NickW]

This is a great conversation that I find very interesting. I've noticed something about my runner friends and their philosophies on running. The friends who never ran before in their life until they were adults all seem to believe wholeheartedly in MAF and the slow long distances primarily. My friends on the other hand that have run their whole lives seem to believe a lot in the short and fast runs, but then also do the occasional long slow run. Just been an interesting observation I've made recently, note that none of my friends are elite runners either, although a few of them are pretty dang quick.

 

[Bare Lee]

I think the barefoot/distance bias comes from the origins of the modern barefoot movement. When I started, the three people with an internet were two marathoners and an ultrarunner (Ken Bob, Rick, and Ted). All of the next wave of runners that developed an internet presence were distance runners. Even though I run shorter races, I rarely talk about them. When I antagonize people to sign up for races, I suggest ultras not 5ks. It's more of my own bias than anything else. I really don't know too many barefoot short distance runners. Josh Sutcliffe and James Webber come to mind, but neither really teaches about barefoot running.

As far as injuries, changing from one form of running to another doesn't eliminate injuries, it simply shifts the location of occurrence. I suspect going from an overstriding heel strike to a gentle midfoot-under-COG style will result in a net decrease, but it certainly doesn't make us bulletproof.

Thanks for the history Jason. Any opinion as to whether faster, shorter BFR could lead to more or less over-use/repetitive stress injury than distance BFR?

 

[Bare Lee]

This is a great conversation that I find very interesting. I've noticed something about my runner friends and their philosophies on running. The friends who never ran before in their life until they were adults all seem to believe wholeheartedly in MAF and the slow long distances primarily. My friends on the other hand that have run their whole lives seem to believe a lot in the short and fast runs, but then also do the occasional long slow run. Just been an interesting observation I've made recently, note that none of my friends are elite runners either, although a few of them are pretty dang quick.

Interesting observation Nick. Thanks.

 

[NickW]

I also just thought about my friends and injuries, oddly, it's the long slow runners that get PF or AT and have more injuries... I've never thought about this and this is in no way scientific. Maybe these friends bodies are just weaker or more susceptible. I don't know.

 

[Bare Lee]

I also just thought about my friends and injuries, oddly, it's the long slow runners that get PF or AT and have more injuries... I've never thought about this and this is in no way scientific. Maybe these friends bodies are just weaker or more susceptible. I don't know.

I looked a little on some of the runner's sites, and didn't see anything comparing injury rates, so anecdotal evidence may be all we have to go on. The problem with your sample of course, is that the guys doing shorter, faster runs are also more experienced runners, so it's hard to tell which is the contributing factor to fewer injuries, type of running or type of runner, or both.

 

[NickW]

Exactly. I've just never thought about my friends and their types of running before and the injuries and find it more than a little interesting now. My sample size is pretty small too so...

 

[Abide]

Thanks for the history Jason. Any opinion as to whether faster, shorter BFR could lead to more or less over-use/repetitive stress injury than distance BFR?

In my experience the gradual building as suggested by agel prevents most injuries. Overtraining is probably the next problem area for injuries for me. Then I would probably rank imbalances and muscular weakness after these.

However the longer distance running seems to be bad for your heart so sticking to shorter runs may be a better bet over the long haul.
http://www.thebarefootrunners.org/t...0-individuals-according-to-recent-study.6821/

 

[Zetti]

In my experience the gradual building as suggested by agel is prevents most injuries. Overtraining is probably the next problem area for injuries for me. Then I would probably rank imbalances and muscular weakness after these.

However the longer distance running seems to be bad for your heart so sticking to shorter runs may be a better bet over the long haul.
http://www.thebarefootrunners.org/t...0-individuals-according-to-recent-study.6821/

I think one other issue is going to be what you consider distance....seems a bit relative.
Ask a tennis player and a 5k might be long distance, ask an Ultra runner and anything under a marathon might by short distance....just a thought that might impact studies and perspective

 

[Bare Lee]

In my experience the gradual building as suggested by agel is prevents most injuries. Overtraining is probably the next problem area for injuries for me. Then I would probably rank imbalances and muscular weakness after these.

However the longer distance running seems to be bad for your heart so sticking to shorter runs may be a better bet over the long haul.
http://www.thebarefootrunners.org/t...0-individuals-according-to-recent-study.6821/

Ya, that study has been going around, and definitely plays a part in this discussion. I remember reading somewhere decades ago that rickshaw runners tended to die young from heart problems, which I found very counterintuitive at the time, but that study explains why it would be so.

Anyway, thanks for your insight on the injury cline: TMTS > overtraining > imbalances/weakness. Something to keep in mind.