Lifting Your Feet?

[Last Place Jason]

Jason,

Indeed, and what was it that it convinced you of ??

I learned that an experiment with an n=2 and no discussion of alternative explanations of the results could be used as "scientific evidence" to sell an idea.

 

[Last Place Jason]

Lee, regarding the email notifications- I'm working on it. Wordpress doesn't natively support the feature, and more plugins make the site even slower than it already is. Stay tuned...

 

[barefootandagile]

Jason,

Let's not go there

 

[Last Place Jason]

Just sayin' you need some science to claim something is "scientific."

 

[Last Place Jason]

Let's not forget the "Astronauts on the moon couldn't run, therefore reduced gravity must have been the problem" logic.

http://www.posetech.com/training/archives/000220.html?referer=sphere_search

That sounds very science-y too.

 

[The Ramzev]

All the science stuff gives me a headache. I think the best rule is:

If it hurts, change something; if you're too slow, change something or listen to Testament.

 

[BFwillie_g]

All the science stuff gives me a headache. ...

I try to keep up with it, but I think I'm just too stupid ... I get lost in the terminology. Now, if they would discuss it in a sensible language like German, instead of pseudo-Latin, I'd be right there with them.

Oh wait, I don't get it in German, neither

 

[BFwillie_g]

Now, arm swinging may work for Willie & others, but if I tried that right now my shoulders would be up by my ears again in two strides!

Hey CS - I don't really follow you here. Why would your shoulders be up to your ears? The way I do it, the shoulders actually drop. That's part of it. But of course you're right in everyone having to find the right thing for him/herself at a given time.

Also - there aren't all that many "others" out there, lol.

 

[Bare Lee]

I suspect that at other speeds one has to make a more conscious effort. I think that there is a substantial difference between running and jogging (though I can't really pinpoint the speed which separates the two). The same would apply to the other great running mammal, the horse, whose gait is substantially different when walking, trotting, cantering, and galloping. (Though, I suppose that horses really "just run"!)

Ha!
But I agree completely that jogging and running feel like two different gaits, kind of like trotting and galloping, even though I think technically humans only have two gaits (whereas most quadrupeds have three): running and walking. I feel best galloping, and the threshold for this feeling is around the 9-9:30 mm pace mark. Below that my form feels relatively smooth and effortless. Above that and it starts to feel plodding and mildly bumpy. I suppose I could try to perfect my form at plus-10-mm paces, but my preferred solution is to simply run faster, even if it means chopping off a few miles from my longest run. It's easier and funner. I would imagine for more accomplished runners the cut-off would be around 7 mm pace.

 

[Bare Lee]

I can't speak for the entire bf community .

Do you even run barefoot Jeremy? Not that it matters--running is running--it just struck me as a funny thing to say. Kind of like me saying I can't speak for the entire minimalist community.

 

[ChasingShadows]

Hey CS - I don't really follow you here. Why would your shoulders be up to your ears? The way I do it, the shoulders actually drop. That's part of it. But of course you're right in everyone having to find the right thing for him/herself at a given time.

Also - there aren't all that many "others" out there, lol.

They have a habit of shooting up there if I don't actively bring them down, or, if they are actually relaxed & I start focussing on them then up they go.

 

[Barefoot Bone Rod]

BR- yes, the feet are naturally lifted off the ground, though it's the glutes/hamstrings that provide the propulsion during hip extension. The lower leg acts as a pendulum. Immediately after full hip extension (thigh/knee is at the farthest point backward), the hip swings forward (hip flexion). There's very little muscle activation that causes hip flexion to happen. There seem to be two theories on what causes the thigh/knee to swing forward:

1. The braking action we try to prevent by not overstriding forces the trailing leg forward, or
2. Elastic recoil from tendons pulls the trailing leg forward.

I'd suspect #2 is the more accurate explanation. Either way, during that forward hip flexion, the foot comes off the ground passively and the lower leg acts as a pendulum to swing the lower leg up and forward. You CAN contract muscles to make this happen, but why contract muscles to accomplish something that will occur in a relaxed state? That's where the efficiency issue comes in, and why I'd say Pose method is not maximizing efficiency. (see attached pic)

If a runner is lifting their knees as a means of getting the foot off the ground, that leads to inefficiency for the same reason- it's activating unnecessary muscles. As I mentioned in my original post, that's one of the reasons barefoot runners have such a hard time running fast... unless they stop actively lifting their knees.

BL noted an important distinction between coaching cues and understanding the fundamentals of running gait. It's fine to use learning cues to help people correct serious problems, which "lifting the feet" will do. However, we have to have an understanding of the fundamental principles of running gait to give our students the best opportunity for success.

The "but I don't want to run fast, therefore it doesn't matter how I run" argument may work on an individual basis, but doesn't fly for those that are teaching/coaching. It would be the same as if we ran a culinary school but only gave people enough information to be a fry cook at McDonald's.

As far as the "teach the basics and let people figure it out" theory, that's great... it's what I currently teach. HOWEVER, the more we know about gait and the more we relay that to our students, the more we facilitate that process. Over the last few years, we've come a long way toward understanding the whole "natural" running thing. Do we ignore that progress and always fall back on "figure it out yourself?" Or do we incorporate what we've learned to make the process more effective? As a former teacher, the former approach is absurd.

Thanks Jason - When you say "it's the glutes/hamstrings that provide the propulsion during hip extension", can you point me to a source of that information? I've recently examined several studies looking into the matter. The results are mixed, but the study that seemed the most legit to me was Montgomery et. al., AJSM 1994, which concluded the following:

"the concentric contractions with the greatest amplitude contributing to forward motion were those of hip flexion (iliacus and rectus femoris muscles) during early and midswing, and of knee extension (vastus intermedius, medialis, and lateralis muscles) during late swing. The powerful flexion of the hip and extension of the knee in the swing limb propel the body forward."
http://hydra-gym.com/research/RSH_hip_kneestudyonmuscleusinrunning.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8198199
This study seems to boldly refute your statement "There's very little muscle activation that causes hip flexion to happen."
Another more recent study done at Stanford concluded that the soleus and gastrocnemius provided the most power for propulsion, however the methodology of the study seems questionable:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20691972
Here are few more that I found interesting:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22573774
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20467100
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16709916
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16194986
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19863962
BR

 

[Last Place Jason]

Rod, stand about 1 foot from a solid wall, then push on it as if you were trying to move it. What muscles are being activated? Same deal with running.

 

[skedaddle]

After running again this morning and paying more attention to what I'm doing, I'd say that I'm lifting my leg fast enough to not trip over my forefoot, that is, fast enough to overcome gravity pulling the forefoot down and the friction of keeping it in place. If your ankle is truly relaxed and you simply move your leg foreward your heel will lift up and push your forefoot into or across the ground or push your leg up. Lifting fast enough means you have to get the other foot in place quickly, which means a cadence of 180+, right?

Skedaddle, I don't know if anyone is calling these rules, just trying to describe what works for us.

I think this thread is about looking at established guidelines and putting them in the dock, so when i say rules that's what i was referring to, sorry bad use of words. I'm just trying to be honest about my experiences, which i think is important. When i heard about the whole foot lifting technique i tried to implement it in a way i could only guess was the correct form, same with knee bending and the like, everything just felt odd or unnatural to me.
I'm not anti technique in any way shape or form, just don't think I'm getting the mechanics of it all, what does lift your feet even mean? I bet it's interpretation varies from person to person, its such an obscure point of reference.

 

[Sid]

I've recently examined several studies looking into the matter. The results are mixed

I believe that you're finding that the results are mixed, because the articles span years of time, during which the theory of running has itself evolved.

For example, in the article, Montgomery et. al., AJSM 1994:
"Forward propulsion was provided mainly by hip flexion and knee extension,which is contrary to the view that posterior calf muscles provide propulsion during toe off."

Looking at the legs from a purely mechanical point of view, they are levers. The largest and most powerful muscles (glutes, hammies, quads) are located near the fulcrum (hips), hence they must do the majority of the work, during different phases.

From another perspective, look at Pistorius who lacks entire muscle groups. Clearly, those muscles are minimally involved in propulsion.

Quads are somewhat important, too!

Ergo, by process of elimination, the major muscles of propulsion are the glutes and hamstrings.

stand about 1 foot from a solid wall, then push on it as if you were trying to move it. What muscles are being activated? Same deal with running.

Well, this is the clearest illustration!

 

[barefootandagile]

Do you even run barefoot Jeremy? Not that it matters--running is running--it just struck me as a funny thing to say. Kind of like me saying I can't speak for the entire minimalist community.

This is me..

but you knew that already.

 

[barefootandagile]

Jason,

I really do wish I had more time to devote to this topic on here. I find it fascinating and informative to read what others think about the issue. I do indeed have my own well thought out opinion and experience that I so wish I could discuss more of :-( maybe later I will get sometime....

 

[Barefooting Bob]

When I started running barefoot, I did concentrate on lifting the feet, for fear of my stride becoming to long and starting to heal strike. Also many areas of uneven sidewalks, roads and trails around my neck of the woods and I had a fear of stubbing my toes. But as I progressed in my milage and my comfort level it just becomes more natural to let the body, legs and feet take over and stop thinking about what needs to be done and just let it happen.

 

[Barefoot TJ]

That's exactly how I feel about it, Mr. Bob. Once you have mastered patience, just run.

 

[Barefooting Bob]

Absolutely.