Shoes, a fracture, and a fun downhill.

[Nyal]

I injured my left foot on an outing on asphalt last Sunday. It felt like a tie between a possible stress fracture and a neuroma. Well, after resting it a whopping five days I decided to risk a five miler in regular running shoes. It was an agonizing, miserable run. One of the worst ones of my running career. I was tired, I had a stitch in the side, I was unable to breathe, and my hurt foot began to hurt after 2 miles. After 5 I could not walk.

What did I learn?

1. Prolly, almost certainly a fracture. The added stress localized the pain in a very tight area on the bottom bone on the 2nd toe where it hits the metty head. It will be fine after 6 weeks, or something like that. Can't walk barefoot at all.

2. The run reinjured my winter injury, the peroneal tendon. I now know what caused this injury (peroneol tendonosis). It was the shoes. No idea how, though. It will be fine after a few days rest.

3. Motion control shoes suck for running. My feet could not function and it was all up to the achilles to power me. I will never run in running shoes again for any reason. I will use them for walking though, they take all the pain away from the toes.

4. BFR form kicks ass. I could not dial it in during the run, but I was able to shoot down a long hill to keep two other runners from passing me. I was FAST (for me) on this run. Maybe the fastest ever. I wound up walking 5 minutes and walking 2 for the last 2.5 miles and didn't bother stopping the watch. I still almost broke 10:00 and posted the fastest time ever for that route.

I am very frustrated, but will cross train for my six weeks. I admit I am rethinking running on asphalt BF. Will I need to start all over in my transition? Or can I start somewhere in the middle?

 

[Jimmy Hart]

 You were foolish to take

You were foolish to take five days off and then go out to test an injury with a five mile run. You should have stopped at two when it started hurting shoes or no shoes. Why do you guys keep doing this kind of stuff to yourself? We preach and preach on here about the injury rates of shoes and how when you feel a pain you have to back off and take it easy yet as a barefoot runner you go out with a pair of shoes and figure it's ok to just drop a 5 miler? That was poor logic my friend and I am very sorry to hear that you are that injured.

To answer some of your points it is the shoes and the motion control built into the sole that caused the peroneal issues. The shoes keep your ankle from moving in a motion that is natural to your body. That limited range of motion throws you out of alignment and your tendons suffer the onslaught of force reverb.

I would be careful using those shoes as a walking shoe as they will do the same in your walking form and that could potentially cause you problems when you do get back to running.

Stay off of your feet as much as possible as even walking in shoes will create irritations for a fracture. There is little to nothing that can be done for breaks in the foot but walking around and doing stuff in shoes or not will lengthen your recovery time.

You can run bf on pavement but it takes time to adapt to it. Yes we tell people to do some running on hard surfaces from the get go because it teaches the body to adapt faster and speeds up the feedback recognition process but that doesnt mean you can just get out there and start trucking miles. You have to be smart and listen to your body as you go, give it rest, and build up slowly. Making the change to bf running sucks for the average person because it can take a long time. We do not want to wait. We want to get going and get going fast as a results now driven society but you have to take it slow and be extremely patient. Especially now that you will be coming back from an injury. Take it slow and then take it slower and you should be fine.

I apologize for the rant to start this post but this kind of story is way to common and to hear that you were sprinting down a hill after having pains that should have told you to stop....as a coach I do not deal well with those kinds of stories.

 

[Barefoot TJ]

You still need to get a true

You still need to get a true diagnosis, Nyal, just to make sure it's not a neuroma, since you suffer from MT.

BUT, did the pain go away after you got off of your feet? Were you able to put hands on your foot and massage it without feeling pain from doing so? If so, then it's probably a neuroma; if not, then it's probably a stress fracture or some other deep tissue injuiry. (Do tendons count as tissue? Do nerves count as tissue?)

Once you do start running again, I would think you could start back at half of what you were doing before the initial injury, since it wasn't that long ago. Six weeks isn't that long. I was on my butt for nearly 3 months after the cryosurgery, and I started up at 3 - 5 miles, and am now at 6 miles at a time. That's about half of what I used to consistently run (10 miles 3 to 4 times a week). I had surgery at the end of March, so I've been back running for a good month to month and a half now.

Good luck, buddy! Keep us informed and just because you are not running doesn't mean you get to disappear from the forums! ;-) Hey, now you have more time to write!

 

[Nyal]

Barefoot TJ wrote:You still

You still need to get a true diagnosis, Nyal, just to make sure it's not a neuroma, since you suffer from MT.

BUT, did the pain go away after you got off of your feet? Were you able to put hands on your foot and massage it without feeling pain from doing so? If so, then it's probably a neuroma; if not, then it's probably a stress fracture or some other deep tissue injuiry. (Do tendons count as tissue? Do nerves count as tissue?)

Once you do start running again, I would think you could start back at half of what you were doing before the initial injury, since it wasn't that long ago. Six weeks isn't that long. I was on my butt for nearly 3 months after the cryosurgery, and I started up at 3 - 5 miles, and am now at 6 miles at a time. That's about half of what I used to consistently run (10 miles 3 to 4 times a week). I had surgery at the end of March, so I've been back running for a good month to month and a half now.

Good luck, buddy! Keep us informed and just because you are not running doesn't mean you get to disappear from the forums! ;-) Hey, now you have more time to write!

Half is good. That's about what I was shooting for. I am a little disappointed to miss a 10k I wanted to go for. My first race ever. I think I will be fine cross training. I will stay off it and will not run.

The pain did not go way after the run, not for a few hours. I took some Ibu and iced it and it is now mostly back to normal. In the middle of the run I took my shoe off and massaged it and felt considerable pain that responded to pressure on the bone. It would transfer it as well. I am not ruling out a developing neuroma, I still have that numb toe, but in this case I am very sure this injury is on top of a potential MN.

BTW, I wore the running shoes to work ( I work in a very intense on your feet kind of job) and they eliminated the pain. I even stomped in them hard and hopped to see if a run was worth the risk. I will never run in running shoes again. They hurt my feet and took a lot of the zip out of the form.

 

[Nyal]

 Calm down Jimmy. It's my

Calm down Jimmy. It's my foot and I took what I felt to be a calculated risk. The initial pain was subdued and I felt it was worth a shot. I don't think I did much more to it except to localize the pain. It already feels about how it did before the run. Five miles is only a half mile longer than my current BF distance. I regret nothing and you should not take anything I do to my feet personally. I pay the price for my own decisions.

Also, I am still in transition, but not exactly a beginner any more. I have worked VERY slowly up to my current distance on asphalt, going less than the 10 percent, taking days off between runs. This is one of those things. My peroneal tendonosis injury left my left foot very weak from this winter. It is MILES ahead of where it has been and I credit BFR for this, but it hits the ground harder. I can't stop that. I did NOT just jump out on the asphalt. Anyone who has followed my progress knows how cautious and careful I am, ESPECIALLY with asphalt. I am surprised by this injury, I did nothing wrong and nothing to risk it. I had no warning, no initial pain, no careless runs. It just happened.

You are out of line. Each of us have limits and hurdles to clear. Because we get hurt does not mean we are foolish, it is a fact of life. I am having serious doubts I can manage asphalt without correcting my Morton's Toe problem. I suspect I am going to go minimal on asphalt. I RECOGNIZE this is less than ideal, but it my not be permanent. I hope not.

And sprinting down the hill? That was the only good part of the whole run. I did better than the normally shod on that hill. Damage was done, let's get home.

 

[Jimmy Hart]

 1. I apologized for taking

1. I apologized for taking your post and story as an opportunity to make a point.

2. you are correct that i dont know your story and your training but i still stand by the fact that coming off an injury or pain that forced you to have to rest and going on a run that is only a half mile shorter than your bf max is too risky.

3. i never intend to offend anyone and certainly did mean to cross a line with you. i get emails daily from people who want my input and answers on stuff that is just out right stupid for them to have done, yet they want me to tell them it was ok and how to fix it. i took this to be a similar situation and again i apologize if i got it wrong.

4. final point. this isn't just one of those things. it could very well be that your peroneal tendonosis caused the issues in your foot. like you said the foot comes down harder than it should and that could be directly linked to the pain you're feeling now. odds are the mileage you were putting in caused the issue, you're correct that there was nothing you could because it gave you no warning and that is common and just one of those things. i was recently sidelined by some pain and diagnosed with neuromas. what we found out soon after is that i have a bone spur in my heel and that was causing issues when i walked bare or minimal so that put undue stress on the ball of my foot. next thing you know i've got a whole new issue caused by another issue that never seemed like a problem. while your off of running i would recommend you work as much as possible and safe to work on your foot strength so you do not repeat the cycle when you get healthy and clear to run.

 

[Nyal]

 Sorry I pissed up like that,

Sorry I pissed up like that, Jimmy. I am very frustrated.

Yes, the injury is a result of the PT. Lefty has been getting beaten up the whole transition and usually is the problem. If Lefty were anything like Righty, I would already be up to 10k. But alas.

As far at treating the PT, I researched normal treatments and they are rest and training the specific area. I was running 30 miles a week, transitioning to BFR while running shoes and made the decision to lose the shoes to aid the transition while resting the PT (it was not severe at this point, but Lefty was very, very weak). This worked wonders, especially since trail running almost perfectly mirror the normal training.

Uff da. So as if the PT were not enough I also have fairly pronounced Morton's Toe on both feet. This (and the change in the arch from the PT) makes me land and spend most of my time 2nd metty towards the little toe. We all know it is the 1st metty that should take the load, but those are the dice. I cannot correct the issue by form alone. PT plus MT led to me being unable to deal with the strains of concrete. Until the PT is gone, it will reinjure without a Morton Pad.

So my plan is this:

1. Rest and cross train until foot is better.

2. Ease slowly back into minimalist and BFR.

3. Use orthotic while on asphalt at all times.

4. Wait for the PT to go away. If it never does, stay at number 3.

Do you ever get foot envy? I look at the wifes feet with their perfect arches, long 1st metty, short toes and wish for a foot transplant.

 

[Jimmy Hart]

 i have mortons on my left

i have mortons on my left foot only. drives me crazy to look down and see two completely different feet. i mean how does that happen? seriously. the bone spur and subsequent neuromas are all on the left foot which does not make life any easier. the bone spur is not from running but a trampolene back in the day. still it caused these neuromas because i've been at this well over a decade and never had any pains before. so now when i wear minimal shoes for walking i have a gel cup in the heel and a pedi fix cushion pad under the ball of my foot. feels insane but i dont have any normal shoes to wear so i had to make due. i went to the store and found a nice pair of racing flats that would do the trick but i just couldn't make myself buy a pair of shoes like that. insane considering they have an 8mm thick sole at the forefoot...same as vff treks. maybe i should just get some treks?

for now all my cushioning pads fit in my ZEMs and it feels fine so that's what i'm going with. i feel for you Nyal i really do. just next time don't go for a 5 mile tester run or at least dont tell me about it!

 

[Barefoot TJ]

So it looks like you may be

So it looks like you may be dealing with at least two problems then. Do you think what you are experiencing now, the newest injury, is from PT or something else like a stress fracture. Then you still need to find out if you indeed have a neuroma or not.

 

[jschwab]

No advice, just some

No advice, just some encouragement. I had every problem in the book when I first tried to transition last summer including peroneal tendonitis. It was horrible. I got orthotics even. Now I've worked out the kinks to the point where have no problems at all except tender feet from tough asphalt. I wish you similar success, cause it ain't easy and it takes time but most of all mental energy. You won't figure it all out overnight because it's too complex and involves too many factors (definitely think alot about your nonrunning shoes) . But. hey, you found the secret to fast downhil running! (That's my favorite part about BFR is the downhill advantage)

 

[Barefoot TJ]

Here's an email I was

Here's an email I was reminded of today that I received over a year ago. Ben from Ted's group was wishing to help me with my neuroma problem. It may work for those of you in the early stages of a neuroma (Morton's Neuroma) problem:

> Please get a copy of Active Isolated Stretching by Aaron Mattes and do

> the Ankle-Foot protocol (pp. 76-85) morning and evening. Whenever you

> can, have an assistant do the assisted Ankle-Foot protocol with you.

> (pp. 146-158) [Active Isolated Stretching available at

> stretchingusa.com]

> Mattes reports excellent results with Morton's over his 40 years as a

> therapist and feels that surgery is usually not needed as long as a

> serious commitment to AIS stretching is first attempted.

> Feel free to contact me with any questions.

> Be well,

> Ben Fury

> Bettercise