Optimal strength training for runners

[Bare Lee]

Those are pretty nice and cheap. I would consider getting something like that if I did travel a lot. I like the single insertion point makes it a little easier to hang than rings.
I do have a pair of rings that I have yet to use. One of these days I'll add in some work with them. I got them primarily for back rowing work and pushups/dips. But with the plan I am following the work wasn't heavy enough to fit them in.

Speaking of which I am seeing pretty good progress so far with my modified 40 day, one thing I may adjust in the future if I ever did this again is to only deadlift once or twice a week. By the end of the week I really feel beat down. However I did a psuedo max today and pulled a 308 very easily. So its working in a very short time too.

Cool, I may try the 40-day plan sometime in the future when I need some variety. This week I just want to get in decent workouts and then start to hit it again next week, or maybe by the end of this week if everything feels solid. Mostly I really need to get the running back up to speed. I haven't been on a proper long run (>6 miles) for almost two months now.

Do you find it true that aerobic fitness goes and comes back faster than anaerobic fitness? Seems like I can lay off the weights for 2-4 weeks and get back in it after a week or less, but running needs to be pretty constant or it falls off quickly. But it also comes back quickly, so hopefully after a couple of weeks of consistent running I'll be back in the 25-30 mpw range. It's the only way I'm going to lose this winter padding.

Rippetoe and others think deadlifts must be done in moderation. I dunno. I like a good heavy set once a week. Since you're doing them more than that, can you just do the other days light?

 

[NickW]

Do you find it true that aerobic fitness goes and comes back faster than anaerobic fitness? Seems like I can lay off the weights for 2-4 weeks and get back in it after a week or less, but running needs to be pretty constant or it falls off quickly. But it also comes back quickly, so hopefully after a couple of weeks of consistent running I'll be back in the 25-30 mpw range. It's the only way I'm going to lose this winter padding.

I notice with myself I lose aerobic fitness after a week or more of non training. As long as I do some sort of runs I can usually maintain and at least slow the aerobic loss. It also tends to come back pretty fast for me. As far as the anaerobic side, I do seem to not lose it as fast but it takes much much longer to build back. Hope you can get back into the swing of things Lee.

 

[Abide]

Cool, I may try the 40-day plan sometime in the future when I need some variety. This week I just want to get in decent workouts and then start to hit it again next week, or maybe by the end of this week if everything feels solid. Mostly I really need to get the running back up to speed. I haven't been on a proper long run (>6 miles) for almost two months now.

Do you find it true that aerobic fitness goes and comes back faster than anaerobic fitness? Seems like I can lay off the weights for 2-4 weeks and get back in it after a week or less, but running needs to be pretty constant or it falls off quickly. But it also comes back quickly, so hopefully after a couple of weeks of consistent running I'll be back in the 25-30 mpw range. It's the only way I'm going to lose this winter padding.

Rippetoe and others think deadlifts must be done in moderation. I dunno. I like a good heavy set once a week. Since you're doing them more than that, can you just do the other days light?

Well technically they should all be light, this directly from his article.
“For the next forty workouts, pick five lifts. Do them every workout. Never miss a rep, in fact, never even get close to struggling. Go as light as you need to go and don’t go over ten reps for any of the movements in a workout. It is going to seem easy. When the weights feel light, simply add more weight.”

It's hard for me to conceptualize what light is, so I am trying to use the RPE scheme to track it. The problem is early in the week things feel light but not so much later in the week. If I am not feeling it in the morning I have done a couple lighter 10 rep sets. Switching styles helps too. So yeah I can adjust a bit. I should probably load up the front squats more on one day and lighten the DL.

Yeah in my experience consistency with running is very important, but to maintain I have been able to just run twice a week and maybe only one or two long runs a month and jump back into it pretty easily.
With lifting its true you can come back from a short break and not lose much, but it takes a little more to maintain/gain long term. So if you skip a week then lift a couple of times and skip another week or two you will probably start to lose.

 

[Sid]

I like that single dumbbell high pull idea. Swingle arm swings are a good one too

Thanks for reminding me about the high pull. Nice exercise.
I tried them with the dumbbells. For some reason, I think that the kettlebell works better for me with this specific exercise.

 

[Sid]

... Before leaving I got in some mild bench pressing at about 75% 1RM x 5 x 4-5 (I like showing off my new-found ability to write meatheadese). Yesterday I was able to run home and do some alternating DB presses.

Okay, you "meatheads" have inspired me to get back into weight training, well... the 5 Minute Abs version. Usually, I'm just too busy (lazy), and a full strength workout is too daunting (lazy), and I'm just not up to it (lazy). So, I pick a major lift and pyramid up until I'm done. That's it. Pretty simple. Less than ideal, better than nothing, doesn't leave me making excuses, don't feel sore for days, easy to commit to one exercise a day, don't feel burned out. Eh, it's a start. We'll see where it goes...

 

[Abide]

Okay, you "meatheads" have inspired me to get back into weight training, well... the 5 Minute Abs version. Usually, I'm just too busy (lazy), and a full strength workout is too daunting (lazy), and I'm just not up to it (lazy). So, I pick a major lift and pyramid up until I'm done. That's it. Pretty simple. Less than ideal, better than nothing, doesn't leave me making excuses, don't feel sore for days, easy to commit to one exercise a day, don't feel burned out. Eh, it's a start. We'll see where it goes...

Alright keep it consistent too. Jim Wendler has a routine called jack shit which is basically what you just described but with percentages.

If that gets too complicated...lol... you can always do 5x5, start light and every consecutive workout add 5 to 10 lbs.

 

[Bare Lee]

Less than ideal, better than nothing.

Sounds great Sid. Do it the way you like it and you will be consistent, which is all that really matters. After a few months you may find it addicting in the same way that running is. Running and lifting seem so fundamental to me, like fruits and vegetables.

If you do anything that leaves you sore for more than 24-48 hours, you've done too much. A few weeks ago when I set a new max squat it took almost four days for the soreness to go away. I did too much. But I kinda liked it.

Had a decent squat session yesterday. I think I've got the bar position and stance pretty much figured out now. My form felt pretty good and smooth. This damn cold is still leaving me with less than full energy though, and now I'm spitting up green phlegm.

 

[NickW]

Sounds great Sid. Do it the way you like it and you will be consistent, which is all that really matters. After a few months you may find it addicting in the same way that running is. Running and lifting seem so fundamental to me, like fruits and vegetables.

If you do anything that leaves you sore for more than 24-48 hours, you've done too much. A few weeks ago when I set a new max squat it took almost four days for the soreness to go away. I did too much. But I kinda liked it.

Had a decent squat session yesterday. I think I've got the bar position and stance pretty much figured out now. My form felt pretty good and smooth. This damn cold is still leaving me with less than full energy though, and now I'm spitting up green phlegm.

I have a tendency to be the sorest about 48 hours after if I put in a good ST session without having done it in a while. Once my body has readjusted (usually about two weeks or so of consistent ST) then I don't really get sore unless I overdo it.

Wow Lee, this bout of sickness is really lingering for you isn't it? Hope you can kick it finally in the next couple days. I hate being sick, and the wife would tell you I am a big baby when I get sick.

 

[Bare Lee]

I have a tendency to be the sorest about 48 hours after if I put in a good ST session without having done it in a while. Once my body has readjusted (usually about two weeks or so of consistent ST) then I don't really get sore unless I overdo it.

Wow Lee, this bout of sickness is really lingering for you isn't it? Hope you can kick it finally in the next couple days. I hate being sick, and the wife would tell you I am a big baby when I get sick.

For me, I'm usually a little sore afterwards, but I'm usually pushing it a bit too. In some of the stuff I've read over the last year or two, people seem concerned with DOMS, but I always thought it was normal. At some point, I suppose, I would stop pushing things and just maintain, but I've never reached that point. Today I feel a little sore from yesterday's squats and dips, and it feels good. It primes me for the next workout, which today is deadlifts, power cleans, and presses. I don't think I would like not feeling sore after a workout.

I jammed with a friend last night and he told me he's been fighting the same bug. His wife had a fever but we've had the same mild, but persistent symptoms. I guess it's been going around. Still, I think I might have fought it off better if I had been in better shape and had gotten proper sleep right away. I know ST is supposed to boost one's immune system, but in my experience, running regularly is a better preventative against common colds. I feel OK today even though I only slept six hours last night, and had 3-4 beers after the jam, so hopefully tomorrow I can get in a good 3-5 miles and get the running up and running again. After three days of mild ST, I already feel like I'm back in the ST game, ready to push it a bit this afternoon.

 

[NickW]

Good Lee. I've always felt running and just being busy exercising in general helps to keep a bodies immune system strong. Seems when I get sick typically is after periods of inactivity and laziness.

 

[Sid]

In some of the stuff I've read over the last year or two, people seem concerned with DOMS, but I always thought it was normal.

What's wrong with DOMS?

 

[Bare Lee]

I notice with myself I lose aerobic fitness after a week or more of non training. As long as I do some sort of runs I can usually maintain and at least slow the aerobic loss. It also tends to come back pretty fast for me. As far as the anaerobic side, I do seem to not lose it as fast but it takes much much longer to build back. Hope you can get back into the swing of things Lee.

Here's something I stumbled across as a follow up to this discussion:
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/conditioning_is_a_sham

 

[NickW]

Not sure I agree with him completely, especially since I was both an infantryman AND a firefighter. Sure, strength is good to a point, but you do also have to have cardio and flexibility. Hes going a bit overboard on the strength side in my opinion and thats fine. I believe in a combination, not just strength. Oh, and having been in those two professions I can tell you there are definite times big strong guys (muscle builder strength only guys) could not keep up and could not do everything required. I do agree that overtraining either way, pure strength or pure cardio, is not good and you need a blend of them, but also the flexibility and mobility.

 

[Sid]

Here's something I stumbled across as a follow up to this discussion:
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/conditioning_is_a_sham

I dare you.

I double dog dare you!

 

[Bare Lee]

Not sure I agree with him completely, especially since I was both an infantryman AND a firefighter. Sure, strength is good to a point, but you do also have to have cardio and flexibility. Hes going a bit overboard on the strength side in my opinion and thats fine. I believe in a combination, not just strength. Oh, and having been in those two professions I can tell you there are definite times big strong guys (muscle builder strength only guys) could not keep up and could not do everything required. I do agree that overtraining either way, pure strength or pure cardio, is not good and you need a blend of them, but also the flexibility and mobility.

Did you skim Nick? He said strength first, then conditioning, since it takes longer to build the former, and it forms a base for everything else. He didn't argue for strength to the absolute exclusion of conditioning.

His general point, which jibes with my experience, is that strength gains last a lot longer. Even after years, I can get back to where I last left off, or at least 80% of it, within 3-6 months, whereas it may have taken me years to get there originally. And for running, I can definitely build up the cardio quickly, but also lose it quickly. What takes the longest is toughening up the legs and feet for the repetitive stress. That's why, even though my running has been crap lately, I'm not too worried about getting back up to 10+ miles for my long run within a month or so once my stubbed toe is good to go (I tried running on it this morning, and it feels like it's getting worse, not better, so I better rest it for a few days more before I try running again. On Monday it felt fine for a short run-commute - - strange).

 

[NickW]

Did you skim Nick? He said strength first, then conditioning, since it takes longer to build the former, and it forms a base for everything else. He didn't argue for strength to the absolute exclusion of conditioning.

His general point, which jibes with my experience, is that strength gains last a lot longer. Even after years, I can get back to where I last left off, or at least 80% of it, within 3-6 months, whereas it may have taken me years to get there originally. And for running, I can definitely build up the cardio quickly, but also lose it quickly. What takes the longest is toughening up the legs and feet for the repetitive stress. That's why, even though my running has been crap lately, I'm not too worried about getting back up to 10+ miles for my long run within a month or so once my stubbed toe is good to go (I tried running on it this morning, and it feels like it's getting worse, not better, so I better rest it for a few days more before I try running again. On Monday it felt fine for a short run-commute - - strange).

No I read it, and it is very much strength strength strength, and then maybe you should add other stuff like cardio, but cardio's not that important because strength beats all and is more important (this is the way his opinion reads to me). I do agree that strength gains from st last a lot longer and you don't lose it as fast. But he went out of his way to talk about how pointless cardio is for beginners, and I fully disagree with that. Like I said I believe a balance is needed, not just one or the other.

 

[NickW]

Oh and I also forgot to reply that I hope your toe gets better. Hope there's not something really wrong with it.

 

[Bare Lee]

No I read it, and it is very much strength strength strength, and then maybe you should add other stuff like cardio, but cardio's not that important because strength beats all and is more important (this is the way his opinion reads to me). I do agree that strength gains from st last a lot longer and you don't lose it as fast. But he went out of his way to talk about how pointless cardio is for beginners, and I fully disagree with that. Like I said I believe a balance is needed, not just one or the other.

I dunno, he just said for novices, focus the first six months on ST exclusively, then add in the cardio, right? I think that would've been good advice for me, when I was getting back into shape. I emphasized the running before my lower body st had become solid, and got itbs and a sore mcl. I wonder if that could've been avoided had I been stronger to begin with.

 

[Bare Lee]

Oh and I also forgot to reply that I hope your toe gets better. Hope there's not something really wrong with it.

No it was getting better fast and I even ran on it Monday, just 48 hours after I stubbed it, but today it feels stiff and painful, so I'll let it rest a few days before I run on it again. It was a real mild stubbing--no blood or swelling. Just hurts on top of the met joint. Sucks cuz I'm really raring to run again.

 

[Sid]

Why not have cake and eat it, too?

Ermm, okay, hold the cake.
http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2013/09/retired_military_generals_recr.html