draft proposed BRS standard for minimal running shoes PLEASE WEIGH IN

And I agree, BB, just because

And I agree, BB, just because a shoe doesn't fit a minimalist standard doesn't make it a useless shoe.
 
I spoke up because this pair

I spoke up because this pair of sandals does not impede my feet in any way. They function like other pairs of huaraches I have made. They do not mold, do not support, do not cushion. I simply object to the idea that I am not a minimalist runner for the simple fact they are 1 cm thick and can't be rolled up. They are cork, it would ruin them.

But seriously, why is minimalism an on off switch (binary opposition anyone, heh). Make it a scale with an eventual cutoff point.

Stage 0: barefeet, barefoot orthotic

Stage 1: socks, anything else one layer about 1 mm. Full sole flexibility (rolls in an O). Fully flexible uppers.

Stage 2: Up to 4 mm sole. Some vibrams, some huraches. Water shoes. Full sole flexibility (rolls in an O). Mostly flexible uppers.

Stage 3. Up to 1 cm sole. Most sandals, some shoes. Partial flexibility (rolls into a C). Mostly flexible uppers.

Stage 4. Anything over 1 cm sole. Sandals and flats. Partial flexibility (rolls into a C). Mostly flexible uppers.

Stage 5. A sandal or shoe that meets the above requirements but may 'sin' in some way. For example, the sole is over 1 cm. Or if a shoe has a SLIGHT heel raise. Or thin tevas which strictly speaking are cushioned (or reused foam flip flops)

These stages make the cutoff. Anything over the cutoff is not minimalist. Such would be any shoe or sandal with arch support, a raised heel for the purpose of cushioning a heel impact or more than a mm or two, a sole designed to eliminate ground feel, or too many sins. Also any stiff or high upper would disqualify. Any orthotic designed into the shoe. (I think self included orthotics should be allowed and still be minimalist. Like a MT patch, or something like that)
 
Nyal, as I lay in bed last

Nyal, as I lay in bed last night, this is kinda like what I was thinking, but instead of calling them stages, I was calling them levels. Level 0 = Barefoot; Level 1 = ...
 
This discussion is ongoing

This discussion is ongoing and open. We will not try to set this standard without hearing from you guys first. Just as the BRS is a community in which all are welcome to contribute and take responsibility for its growth, we turn to all of you to help us with this standard as well.
 
How about 'steps'? hee hee 

How about 'steps'? hee hee
 
I guess I like Nyal's idea.

I guess I like Nyal's idea. Even though I don't really plan on wearing anything while I'm running, I do use "minimal" shoes for walking around, especially in public or somewhere with a lot of goatheads. Really I mostly wear my flip flops, jut because they're fast and simple, and while I would never run in them, and I don't consider them barefoot, I don't really consider it to count as actually wearing a "shoe". So I can comfortably say that I don't really wear shoes, even if I just had my flip-flops on. Minimal shoes should be something that doesn't really quite count as a shoe, which isn't by any means a quantifiable definition, but it has an idea to it. Also, all minimal shoes should have to breathe(Unless its supposed to be water proof or something). Not that breathability makes a shoes any more or less minimal, but for my purpose of wearing a shoe that isn't totally unbearable to my barefoot accustomed feet, its a pretty big deal, and it would be nice if manufacturers would consider this.
 
Steps, now that is cute!  If

Steps, now that is cute! If we go with incorporating "steps," we will use the term Steps. Do I hear a second?
 
Will we define a 12 step

Will we define a 12 step program weaning people off shoes?
 
That's a terrific idea.  Ha!

That's a terrific idea. Ha!
 
I didn't take time to read

I didn't take time to read all of the posts so hopefully this is a new thought.



Minimalist is no different than "cross trainers, tennis, basketball, walking, dress" or any other description of any other shoes. It's just a way to sell a product and since you can't sell nothing (barefoot) so minimalist is what we get.
 
Zep, those are some great

Zep, those are some great points. So glad you posted to share. Those are valid considerations, and as we move forward and learn from one another, hopefully we can incorporate a program that will define what minimalism means for the majority of these concerns.

Naked, uh, that's not what this thread is about.
 
minimalSHOE=minimumLEVELshoe

minimalSHOE=minimumLEVELshoe
  • 1b. The shoe should not impede the movement or flexibility of the foot in any way. The shoe should allow the foot to use all its musculature and strength, including the grasping and splaying actions of the toes.
  • 2c. There should be no cushioning.
With these two restrictions the range of shoes that fits stomper's definition is quite narrow.

For instance, 2c. would leave off all FiveFingers with EVA midsole, like KSOs, Treks, Bikilas, Flows and so on.

If 1b. is strictly applied only socks, the forthcoming Inov8 EvoSkin and some FiveFingers should be included. I doubt you can grasp something with your toes through the thinnest flat sole of some sandals or flip-flops, and any grasping action without actually anything to grasp won't help your feet and legs to walk or run.

That said, I like the idea. I find the addition of cushioning such as an EVA midsole totally unnecessary (therefore far from minimal) assuming that the biomechanics of joints, bones, ligaments, tendons and muscles provide enough cushioning to run safe of injury to any minimally trained individual (i.e., almost any minimally sensible and sensitive person.)

As for the proposal of different levels to classify minimal shoes, I initially thought to be more accurate than a simple cut point, but later I thought it twice and I realized it would be contradictory by definition and also inaccurate if generally applied.

We shouldn't assign levels to the concept of minimal because minimal as attribute already implies a specific level: THE MINIMUM LEVEL.

Broadly speaking, the minimum level could be defined as a threshold between the excess in one or several quantitative magnitudes to attain a predefined state, attribute, etc. and a shortage in those magnitude/s making that state impossible to reach. However, such threshold often becomes blurred or is intrinsically not possible to determine, what makes the definition of an acceptance interval a more convenient tool to work with.



The second consideration to be taken is the dynamic nature of such threshold. This time I'm going to give some examples to spare you from my pseudo-accademic speech:

The minimal shoe to walk or run is a relative concept itself. The minimal shoe on the Moon would require both an air-tight construction to keep your body fluids in a liquid phase, and thermal isolation to prevent your feet from Moon's extreme temperatures. Similarly, a sandal wouldn't serve as a minimal shoe to walk in the Antarctica in the open air. The same can be applied to desserts with extremely high/low temperatures, and so on. Minimal is a relative concept that mostly depends on the factors affecting the activity and even the subject who is performing it.

Finally, my last concern involves the predefined state to be attained to define that minimum level. Again, I'm going to give an example of it. In a temperate climate and on a regular surface, the minimal shoe to walk a few miles for a trained individual would be only his or her own feet. If that individual wants to keep his or her skin clean and safe of any possible cut or puncture the minimal shoe for that purpose would probably require of some additional element of protection (a pair of socks would probably work), if that individual wanted his or her minimal shoes to last longer, a pair of socks wouldn't work quite well. Therefore, the purpose of the activity (in the former example, going for a walk in reusable minimal shoes) is an additional element to take into account in the definition of the minimum level of choice.



I think that any accurate definition regarding what a minimal shoe is should clearly specify that kind of assumptions and accept different definitions for the different factors involved.
 
Zephyr, I have one way to

Zephyr, I have one way to narrow it down. I propose we're talking about defining a minimal RUNNING shoe, not a minimal shoe in general. After all this is the barefoot RUNNING society.

However, in consideration of your hypotheticals, we might clarify that by calling ourselves Barefoot Running Society -- Earth Division. (The Lunar division is still being organized, I understand.)

But seriously, great discussion. I myself wonder whether a single standard or various levels would be best, but I'll hold my own opinion 'cause I really want to see what other people say.
 
Ditto.

Ditto.
 
Personally, I think of sole

Personally, I think of sole thickness when I think of minimal. But I either run bf, or in kso treks or bikilas. Even though I feel the ground more in either of them vs. boat anchors, they aren't anywhere near barefoot.

I have an analogy I've started using (actually, this is the first place I've used it :) ) Think of your hands. Since the only part of our body with more sensors than our feet are our hands. We can either use our hands naked, our cover them with gloves or mittens. Mittens would be like shoes that allow all of our toes to visit one another. Gloves (VFFs) have a separate home for each of our fingers. Typically mittens are thicker than gloves. Anyone who has ever worn these know that you can do more, from a dexterity standpoint, than you can in mittens. So I kind of relegate mittens to boat anchor status.

Now with gloves, we can do a lot more. But even with gloves, there are different thicknesses and materials. Some gloves are every bit as thick as mittens. So padding doesn't define gloves vs mittens, but many fingers vs one finger does. We've all heard of "driving" gloves. These are made of thinner material, so you can "feel" the wheel better, etc. But they are still gloves. And now you have gloves for most types of sports, that have been customized for that sport.

If you were to label a glove "minimal", I think most would think of "thin" instead of visualizing a glove with two fingers cut off (or really short finger spaces).

Minimal, I think to most people, means "as little as possible". What feels "minimal" to one person, will feel different to another, based on how sensitive your feet are.

If you choose 3 mm, as the thickest. Then is 4 mm that much of a difference? Not really. Just adding 1 mm each time, there wouldn't be much difference between the new thickness and the previous one. But when you get to, say, 9 mm, then "wow" that sucker's three times as thick as the 3 mm.

So minimal is relative to what you are comparing it to, and relative to how sensitive someones feet are. As has been mentioned before, to use the least amount of shoe needed to complete your run. I think this is what a minimal shoe is.

You can set any standard you want to, but people are going to go up or down from that thickness based on their current situation and needs.

I do agree that 0% drop from heel to toe would be a good idea, but I'll have to defer to others as to sole thickness.
 
Great feedback, Miker! 

Great feedback, Miker! Minimal means as little as possible, yes, but in the case of shoes it ALSO means (IMHO) a shoe that does not alter the biomechanics of the runner: no motion control, no arch support, no elevated heel...
 
stomper wrote:2a. The sole

stomper said:
2a. The sole must be thin, completely flat, and flexible. The sole should not curve.
I agree with the reasons behind that requirement, however, I would change some of the wording of the criteria. Saying that the sole should be "completely flat" and "the sole should not curve" both exclude a sole that fits the foots arch. Look at the bottom of the VFF and you'll see that the sole is molded to fit the contour of the foot's arch. This curve in the sole works in conjunction with the strapping system, to ensure that the shoe stays centered with the foot rather than flop around independently.
 
I don't think Stomper meant,

I don't think Stomper meant, curve of the foot's sole. Perhaps he meant curve vertically, like you see the arch support in a shoe curving the arch upward or the toes of some shoes curving upwards, but yes, the wording would need to be changed to specifically state so. Stomper?
 
When Abide first mentioned

When Abide first mentioned 4mm thickness my immediate response was "that's too thick!" but now after hearing everyone else's ideas I see that I'm in the minority there.

Danjo, regarding running w/flip flops, I ran with new forum member Ryan (from Vancouver, WA) today. He's been running for 6 years bf'ed and he said that he sometimes runs with flip flops in his fanny pack to get through prickly patches on wilder runs. It's my nature to go all or nothing but the wisdom of his pragmatism hit home with me.
 

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