Tiptoe through the forest (BFR form?)

[swedishpimple]

On my recent trip to the North Woods of Minnesota I did lots of BF and Minimal trail running... I also took lots of pictures.

Some of the stills I took of myself I did with a camera remote in hand... hoping to capture a winning picture of me dashing along the trails during my first BFR/MR vacation. I would setup the camera and then run by intermittently clicking away trying, I guess, to achieve a digital record of how cool I am or something. My wife took some others for me... shouting instructions like "smile" and "don't run angry".

But enough about my lameness.

I noticed something when I looked back over the "film"... the shots of me BFR on the trails, and in particular on the downhill patches showed me, reaching out, leading with my toes, almost tip-toeing if you will. My only guess is that this was a subconscious attempt to find a safe place to put my foot amid the rocks and roots. In comparison the shots of me running in similar conditions while minimally shod show my lead foot much more under my body or COG . Another surprise for me was that my knees kinda hurt while doing these trails BF, but not at all while MR... again I suspect the aforementioned form issue.

Trails are something I have been doing for a while bare... so I was surprised to see that my form could be so off while running them that way. I also was equally surprised that my minimal running form... the use of shoes for running (Feelmax Osma) being something which I had only dabbled in before this trip to MN would look and feel so good.

Anyway... I just thought I would share.

Needless to say... I'll be working on my BFR form some more on the hills and trails. But it's good to know that the MR option works for me.

Does anyone have any BFR pointers for keeping your feet more under you? Particularly on the downhills?

Thanks

S. Pimp.

 

[Barefoot TJ]

I happen to believe our form

I happen to believe our form changes, as it should, when we go from one type of terrain that is flat and predictable to one that is uneven and unpredicatable. It would only reason that we should change our form under varying conditions. Does it mean our form is wrong if we are running trails and our feet are NOT under us, verus forward or backward? I don't think so, but the jury is still out on this one. I would think it would be difficult to run trails with my weight under my center all the time. I would think I would be changing up where my center of gravity was all the time depending on the terrain and how strong I am as a runner to tackle it.

What is troubling is that you experience knee pain while running barefoot on trails. There must be something else within your barefoot-trail form that is contributing to your knee problems. But then I am no expert on trail running, so I bow to the more experienced on this subject.

 

[barefoot.zumba.runner]

to be honest Pimp, not sure

to be honest Pimp, not sure I know if I can answer that question. I'll pay more attention to it on my run tomorrow and will get back to ya.

On that note, though, how was your trip up Nort? Sounds like a nice time, cold I bet though

 

[Blind Boy]

I wonder if it really is your

I wonder if it really is your A game or if you tensed up enough by having a camera around that you just couldn't get it right. Anyway, some over-extension is normal on trails but if it's a constant thing you really need to work on it. As always, let comfort guide you to what works and what doesn't.

 

[swedishpimple]

TJ - The knee pain isn't

TJ - The knee pain isn't totally new to me... it is something I have struggled with on and off for the last 10 years or so. It is one of the reasons I have avoided taking up running for so long. The worst it ever got was 2 years ago on a trip to San Francisco... we did a 10 mile self guided walking tour (not barefoot) on those hilly streets and by the next day my knee was not happy... I had to limp and straight leg it for 2 days after. All that being said it doesn't bother me day to day... it doesn't bother me while skiing... and until this trip it rarely (1 or 2 other times) bothered me while running BF.

The BFR tiptoeing that I am attempting to describe from what I saw in my pictures looks very much like that... imagine reaching out with your lead leg to stick your toes in a pool to test the water temperature. My lead leg is extended out, my knee is nearly locked... this can't be good.

Like I said.... I am going to work on correcting this as it is obvious to me from the warnings my body is giving me that I need to change something rather than continue. The ironic part about this is that during these picture taking sessions I was really trying to run with good form... If this is my "A" game then I am indeed in trouble. I think one problem I have is that I am not totally body aware...I have never been really coordinated... for instance watching me dance or attempt step aerobics has made many a person guffaw and break into open mockery... but enough about my wife.

Zumba -

We had a wonderful time in the North Woods... I wonder what the Canadians call it? It was chilly in the mornings 38-46F... but the sun was out on most days... and with all the running I did, I hardly noticed even when we got in the 60F lake.

You MN folk are certainly a welcoming lot... we always enjoy our trips to your fine State.



S. Pimp.

 

[swedishpimple]

 BB - Good advice as always.

BB - Good advice as always.

I certainly haven't ruled out the possibility that knowing I was being captured on "film" had some negative effect on my gait. I have seen many a person who's smile went from pleasant to out right ridiculous in the face of the camera. I'm sure running form can likewise be affected.

S. Pimp.

 

[Barefoot TJ]

Good point, BB. Swede, good

Good point, BB.

Swede, good luck figuring it out. I think reaching with your toes could be like walking blind, or running blind. Perhaps it's a relaxation issue, unsure of what lies underfoot. Not good or bad, but both good and bad.

 

[Nyal]

 I am going to say something

I am going to say something that will get a brick thrown through my computer screen here, but it needs to be said.

Asphalt and concrete are not natural surfaces and as BF runners we learn proper form, a specialized skill in order to traverse it safely. It is possible, but it is not natural and we must learn. We are not adapted to those surfaces.

Trails, however, are different. We are perfectly adapted to run on trails. This is why your form changes between the two surface types. It is critical to allow you body to react and move in the easiest and most natural way possible off road. Here proper asphalt form is not a good idea. The trails have obstacles, rocks, roots, leaves, sand, packed dirt, and mud, all with 3 meters. You must run naturally here.

And? And it's ok because the softer and more forgiving nature of trails allow you to do more, like land slightly ahead of your CoG, to jump longer, etc. These issues would be contraindicated for asphalt, but are vital to run safely in the hills.

Don't believe me? Try this experiment that I did once: load a 180 bpm mp3 on your ipod. First, run a section trail, about half a mile, without the bpm, allowing all these 'asphalt mistakes' to happen. Then keep your cadence to the mp3 EXACTLY and make your form exact for asphalt conditions. The difference is vast between to two methods.

Asphalt, not natural, need learned skills to run on it.

Trails, natural, you have skills hardwired into your DNA.

Try it!

 

[Barefoot TJ]

I agree with you, Nyal. 

I agree with you, Nyal. Everything you said holds true in my book. Oh-oh, here comes a brick through my screen.

 

[stomper]

 Nyal has a good point,

Nyal has a good point, concrete and asphalt are very artificial "unnatural" surfaces, not in their hardness so much, but just in their sheer miles and miles of consistency. In a certain sense gravel roads are like that too... of course there's gravel in nature, but an ancient runner would never have to run mile and miles on it. Traversing more natural landscape there would be variety. So the form for running on those hard smooth surfaces is definitely specialized and doesn't feel right on trails to me.

SP, I've been struggling with steep trail downhills, trying to figure them out. When I noticed I was getting some knee pain on that terrain I told myself something was really wrong. I was reaching out a lot, kind of like you're talking about, and I could feel a braking action transmitted up through my knees. I believe Ken Bob talks about really picking up your feet and making them into a wheel like kind of motion, and also kind of giving into the speed. That's been helping, but I haven't totally solved it. This is definitely one of the hardest kinds of terrain for me to do barefoot, and minimal shoes make it a lot easier. But I like the real feel of BF.

Definitely let us know if you make any progress on this one..

 

[barefoot.zumba.runner]

Interesting point Nyal, I've

Interesting point Nyal, I've never done a trail run. I'm intrigued now though. Must find a trail to run on.



Pimp, south woods? :shrug: LOL Glad you had a nice time here in the land of 10,000 lakes.

 

[Nyal]

 I would never run in the

I would never run in the woods found in the SE US. Chiggers!!!!!! That tick over the summer already did a number on me.

 

[swedishpimple]

I enjoy running trails

I enjoy running trails because they are challenging... they add variety... and yes even danger. All that being said I also enjoy running on the road, even if it is a monotonous surface, because it is far easier to find a rhythm and get comfortable. But the again... I also like spicy food and vanilla ice cream (Yes sometime even together)... so maybe it all fits with who I am.

Nyal - Maybe I do need to just let things happen naturally.

Stomper - You are spot on with your description. I do feel like I am braking on the downhills. This motion explains everything... the images and the knee pain too. I'll have to try using the Ken Bob approach.

Most of my issues occur on downhills that are more gradual than abrupt. These are the ones that look like a blast to run down... but in my reality I get going fast and get nervous and the brakes come out.

On the steepest of hills I don't have this problem so much... I recognize that I need do something different. In these cases I usually turn my hips sideways and sidestep my way down... alternating from side to side (mogul style) in response to the terrain. This sideways skipping motion takes a real load off the knees BTW... it just wouldn't be that practical and efficient in all cases.

S. Pimp.

 

[NakedSoleNate]

 on downhills on trails I

on downhills on trails I just fall and move my feet fast enough to keep them under me...slightly out of control, and monstrous fun.

 

[Blind Boy]

Another thing occured to me

Another thing occured to me now, it's been a few months since I ran trails, but I bend my knees a lot more on trails. I'm probably like 5" shorter if I'm on a trail compared to a road. Also, I did have some knee issues that led me to figure this out, once I bent a little more it stopped getting worse at least.

 

[miqie]

"I also took lots of

"I also took lots of pictures." So, can we see some of these pics?

 

[Danjo]

Well Ken Bob's #1 peice of

Well Ken Bob's #1 peice of advice for hills is that you are going DOWN the hill, not across it, and definitely not up it (when you're headed down anyways.) If you focus on moving straight down the forward motion will take care of itself. Basically you have to bend your knees a lot, and not try to slow yourself down. I prefer running on trails for all the variety, but unfortunatly I mostly just have roads to run on around my house. Funny, most non-barefooting people think roads are extremely dangerous, but I just find them kinda boring. I try to spice them up by running through gravel parkinglots and randomly jumping onto the sidewalk and then back off again (I watch for cars of course.) I went for a barefoot hike the other day, and it was the best barefoot experience I've ever had. Now running on paved roads is like drinking just water after I had a fruit smoothie.

 

[barefoottyler]

When I met Ken Bob I paid

When I met Ken Bob I paid really close attention to his form. He seemed to always run with his feet under him even on the toughest of terrain. One thing he mentioned was to try to have one foot touching down before you lift the other one up. Make sure to bend your knees(with this form it should come naturally). There is not a point in hopping while running.



To do this just start slow and increase your speed until you are running. This will be strenuous the first time and probably tempting to just hop, but stick with it and try to glide. It keeps your weight distributed over both feet and keeps your feet below you. The nastiest of stuff is not bad when you use this form because the weight is distributed nicely.


In the near future I am going to make some videos showing different techniques, such as trail running, hills, etc. I'll make sure to post here and promote them.



Good luck.