hydration needs?

[SillyC]

Regarding salt and/or other electrolytes- if your skin is salty, you're taking far too much.

Is that from Waterlogged, Jason?

Because, hmmm..... I only started using electrolytes last summer (and they made me feel dramatically better). Before I started using them, I would get crusted with salt from running, biking, or cross-country skiing. I haven't noticed any increase since, and I can't notice that I'm more salty when I'm using electrolytes than I am when I haven't been.

 

[flammee]

Because, hmmm..... I only started using electrolytes last summer (and they made me feel dramatically better). Before I started using them, I would get crusted with salt from running, biking, or cross-country skiing. I haven't noticed any increase since, and I can't notice that I'm more salty when I'm using electrolytes than I am when I haven't been.

Did you only add electrolytes or were there also carbonhydrates that you added? There's scientific evidence that carbonhydrates makes the difference. Amount of electrolytes in sport drinks is so minimal that it doesn't make a difference.

 

[BFwillie_g]

Amount of electrolytes in sport drinks is so minimal that it doesn't make a difference.

I don't think they're talkig about sports drtinks ...

Just ran 75 minutes in the hot sun and it was g r e a t!!! No, I didn't drink, still haven't in fact... but I gotta go work!

 

[SillyC]

Well, this is going kind of far afield from the original post... but it's the internet.

Did you only add electrolytes or were there also carbonhydrates that you added? There's scientific evidence that carbonhydrates makes the difference. Amount of electrolytes in sport drinks is so minimal that it doesn't make a difference.

Flammee, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but can you point me to that scientific evidence?

Using electrolyte products has made a world of difference for me.
I'm 36 years old. I have been a runner for about 10 years, but a physically mature (and active) adult for ~ 8 years prior to that. Before running, I did a lot of hiking and recreational biking. While I was not a "cyclist", it wasn't unusual for me to bike ~ 50 miles in a week, just sort of tooling around. I'd do stuff like bike 12 miles to the beach, then bike back.

I always struggled with the heat, and badly, and I've always been a salty sweater. I dislike Gatorade because it is too sweet, and I don't like sweet drinks in general. I'm a water-drinker, but not a compulsive overdrinker, and never was. There were times when I went on dayhikes and would have to stop for a couple of hours and sit in the shade (I live in the north, so we're only talking about upper 80s). I worked in a commercial laundry during my late teens and early 20s, and I passed out a few times in the machine room. If it got above 85, I would feel miserable when barely active. Really, I felt like crud all summer long.

But two summers ago, I started popping a Nuun tab (these don't have carbohydrates) when I felt crummy. I was really suspicious of these, but a friend of mine who does Bikram Yoga gave me a tube of them. I don't feel crummy in the summer anymore. I haven't puked in the heat. I haven't passed out. My hands no longer swell up. I haven't wanted to call the WAHmbulance on warm-weather runs. In years past, I really HAD to get up at 5AM and run. When I tried to run with my lunch group, I would have to stop at the 2 mile mark and let them go on ahead while I sat in the shade.

I think it's a bit more complicated than the magic bullet of the Nuun tabs - I'm not really consuming that many of them. However, the ones I DO consume have given me that boost up to allow me to do some acclimatization training.

 

[SillyC]

Ah - I just read the writeup of waterlogged on irunfar. It's here:

http://www.irunfar.com/2012/07/waterlogged-a-dogma-shattering-book.html

For reason unclear to scientists, in a significant population of runners (measures as high as 13% of Boston Marathon runners in a 2002 study) exhibit excessive levels of ADH. This condition, referred to as Syndrome of Inappropriate ADH secretion (SIADH), causes athletes to retain water beyond physiologically need, despite potentially severe overhydration and hyponatremia.​

I looked this one up beyond irunfar. A minor bit of SIADH sounds a lot like what I've always experienced in the summer.

As dangerous and deadly as EAH can be, the treatment – if initiated promptly and correctly – is quite simple. Research and clinical application has shown that a simple 100-mL “mini-IV” of high-concentration saline solution (3.0% of greater) produces rapid recovery of even the severely hyponatremic – within minutes.​

Notable are studies that found a simple ingestion of the same volume and concentration of sodium solution does not have the same restorative effect. It is not known at this time why simply ingesting sodium is less effective.​

Think I'll stick with the Nuun rather than a bolus of sodium. I've never ended up hospitalized, so it's never been THAT bad for me. Ingesting the sodium seems to be effective enough for me. Guess I'm among the 13% that truly is going to benefit from electrolyte replacement.

 

[Last Place Jason]

Heather- personal experience and a smattering of science. Your body sheds excess sodium via sweat. Eat too much and you get salt deposits on the skin (which leads to chafing issues). The idea is the body is great at self-regulating this balance. If your skin is salty, you're getting more than enough sodium... the symptoms are caused by something other than sodium deficiency.

I don't know if Waterlogged addresses it, but I suspect other electrolyte deficiencies play a role- notably potassium and calcium.

 

[SillyC]

Jason - I take a calcium supplement (always have) and eat a lot of bananas (always have).

I'm not so sure I believe that everyone's body is so freakin' great at regulating electrolytes. It seems like a lot of the studies use "requiring hospitalization" as the end point, but with hyponatremia, there's a long "feel like crap" phase. I was perfectly capable of keeping myself out of the hospital - when I felt like crap, I sat on the couch and watched TV. So, if that's an acceptable solution, yeah, I don't NEED those electrolytes. I regulated by sitting down. But I think I'd like to run a summer ultra.

Ben Nephew - who is an endocrinologist and also a local ultrarunning champion - has joined in the discussion in the comments at irunfar. I hope he keeps contributing.

 

[7ships]

Should have been more clear when I called them salt pills. Endurolytes are attempting to provide an electrolyte mix that aids in hydration. They contain Na, Ca, Mg, K, vB6, Mn, not sure why the B6.
I've also always been a salty sweater, was never a big water drinker during runs but my skin tastes like brine just walking around, and I don't eat much salt. I've read that one of the adaptations the body makes to heat training is reduced salinity in sweat.

The big thing for me was going from testing water, sports drinks, powders with sugar and electrolytes, etc., I found that the electrolyte pills helped me with recovery, and kept my energy up during runs, especially at longer distance.

 

[SillyC]

There ARE some health benefits to B6.... but if you're taking a multivitamin you don't need anymore B6.

My mom works on drug trials for people with a severe illness, and has had some dealings with vitamin manufacturers. According to her, the main reason massive doses of B vitamins are put into supplements is to turn your urine yellow. That's how consumers "know they are working". Yet another reason we can't use urine color as a good indicator of hydration.

 

[Bare Lee]

Should have been more clear when I called them salt pills. Endurolytes are attempting to provide an electrolyte mix that aids in hydration. They contain Na, Ca, Mg, K, vB6, Mn, not sure why the B6.
I've also always been a salty sweater, was never a big water drinker during runs but my skin tastes like brine just walking around, and I don't eat much salt. I've read that one of the adaptations the body makes to heat training is reduced salinity in sweat.

The big thing for me was going from testing water, sports drinks, powders with sugar and electrolytes, etc., I found that the electrolyte pills helped me with recovery, and kept my energy up during runs, especially at longer distance.

Thanks for the clarification. I ordered some yesterday from Amazon. I don't really need them for running, since hydration has never been a problem for me and I only run an hour or less, and I've never been much of a pill-popper (I don't take vitamins or anything), but if it helps with recovery, which translates as not getting drowsy while at my desk later in the day, then they'll be worth it.
Hey, unrelated question: what's the best IPA you've ever tasted?

 

[7ships]

Haha, you bring every damn thread back to beer Bare!
I used to be a huge fan of MBC's High Seas IPA but they destroyed it over time. I'm not a big strong beer kind of guy as I want to be able to throw back a few before it's over but if you're going to twist my arm I might go with a Ranger from New Belgium.

 

[Bare Lee]

Haha, you bring every damn thread back to beer Bare!
I used to be a huge fan of MBC's High Seas IPA but they destroyed it over time. I'm not a big strong beer kind of guy as I want to be able to throw back a few before it's over but if you're going to twist my arm I might go with a Ranger from New Belgium.

Well, I don't know too many distillers, so I have to take advantage when I can. I'm more of a lager guy myself, but lately I've been getting into a good IPA before dinner and then a glass of wine with it. The bitter taste of the IPA seems to set my taste buds up nicely for food and wine. I've tried the Ranger and liked it, but that was a while ago. I'll have to give it another go while I'm in this IPA phase. Tonight I'm going to have a Red Hook IPA, I think it's called Hammer something. Right now the Founders Centennial IPA is winning the contest.

 

[7ships]

I like what Founders does. I tried to get involved with them, making whisky out of their beers and pairing them up, kind of like your IPA and wine thing...but with more hair on it

By the way a lager is a great way to recover from a long run, and I read something a while back that said that a light beer the night before a run is good prep...but who needs excuses?!

 

[BFwillie_g]

Jason - I take a calcium supplement (always have) and eat a lot of bananas (always have)..

can I ask why you take calcium, SC?

can you google-translate this:

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wissen/kalzium-praeparate-gefahr-fuers-herz-1.981564

oh, a BBC article, roughly similar:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-10805062
?

 

[Last Place Jason]

Jason - I take a calcium supplement (always have) and eat a lot of bananas (always have).

I'm not so sure I believe that everyone's body is so freakin' great at regulating electrolytes. It seems like a lot of the studies use "requiring hospitalization" as the end point, but with hyponatremia, there's a long "feel like crap" phase. I was perfectly capable of keeping myself out of the hospital - when I felt like crap, I sat on the couch and watched TV. So, if that's an acceptable solution, yeah, I don't NEED those electrolytes. I regulated by sitting down. But I think I'd like to run a summer ultra.

Ben Nephew - who is an endocrinologist and also a local ultrarunning champion - has joined in the discussion in the comments at irunfar. I hope he keeps contributing.

I think that's one of the main points Noakes is making (though I didn't read the book)- hyponatermia is a problem. He's proposing drinking less (to thirst) instead of over-drinking as we do now. Drinking less would eliminate the need for electrolyte supplementation.

It's an interesting idea. I've had three major "feel like shit" episodes this year. All were in hot, dry weather (and I was wearing moisture-wicking shirts). I assumed it was a problem with dehydration or electrolytes, but the symptoms were odd. In retrospect, it may have been poor thermoregulation... I got too hot from running too hard. The symptoms disappeared when temps cooled in all three cases.

 

[migangelo]

my mom had an old out of print book from Paul Bragg. famous author, vegetarian, businessman, and athlete. he wrote that he challenged a bunch of college kids to race across death valley. they could have all the salt and water they wanted while he only drank water. i think the one who lasted the longest went 20 miles. not sure if i remember correctly but he may have gone back and forth from feeling so good. anyway he wanted to prove taking in salt was unnecessary.

 

[SillyC]

can I ask why you take calcium, SC?

can you google-translate this:

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wissen/kalzium-praeparate-gefahr-fuers-herz-1.981564

oh, a BBC article, roughly similar:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-10805062
?

Well, I'll keep that in mind for when I get old, and see if they are recommending to NOT take calcium supplements. I had tibial stress fractures in my early teens, so began taking calcium supplements then. And after that, I went on and started breeding. I breastfed those kids for a long time. That snags a lot of calcium, and I think a lot of women don't recover from that.

 

[SillyC]

It's an interesting idea. I've had three major "feel like shit" episodes this year. All were in hot, dry weather (and I was wearing moisture-wicking shirts). I assumed it was a problem with dehydration or electrolytes, but the symptoms were odd. In retrospect, it may have been poor thermoregulation... I got too hot from running too hard. The symptoms disappeared when temps cooled in all three cases.

You know, I always blamed "just heat" for how bad I felt all summer long, Jason. And I still have to slow down in the heat. But I never, ever feel as bad as I used to now that I use electrolytes. My hands used to get HUGE. I still typically gain about two pounds on the day AFTER a long run. Now, maybe I'm a bit off, but my point is that it might be premature to replace the "Drink drink drink" dogma with a "Don't drink and electrolytes are a waste of money" dogma. If there is ANY dogma, I think it should be "Experiment and go with what works for you".

I may have to read the book now.

 

[Last Place Jason]

Agreed. The idea is interesting as it could be a possible explanation to the problem that was previously unknown. Unfortunately I'm heading into three major races and don't have a chance to experiment on really long runs. If you do experiment with this, let us know how the results end up.

 

[Bare Lee]

If there is ANY dogma, I think it should be "Experiment and go with what works for you".

Tru dat.