The Running Form Thread

Jason, I'm not able to finish reading through this whole thread right now. But in response to your request at BRS to look into possible flaws with the spring-mass model, the best I can come up with, and this concurs with your skepticism, is:

"Quantitative comparisons of the [spring-mass] model with human data suggests that, while capturing the vertical dynamics well, it does a poorer quantitative job of capturing the horizontal dynamics."
www.princeton.edu/.../How%20well%20a%20spring-mass-like.pdf
Page 14.

This makes intuitive sense to me, as I was going to suggest that force application seems to be at least partially unaccounted for, as well as arm swing and torso torque, but I really don't understand the model very well in its technical details. It just seems incomplete to think of stride as a simple spring with a angled forward vector, but I'm incapable of intellectualizing my intuition.
 
I wonder if I'm missing something because I don't know much about physics.
Yes, you are. You have a folk understanding that helps you coach others with a similar level of (mis)understanding. The sun appears to rise in the east, but in fact the earth is rotating eastwards. This misunderstanding doesn't in any way impede one from telling time by looking at the 'position' of the sun in the sky. Use your Illusion as Guns 'n Roses said.
 
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Hello everybody,
I've read a couple of times in this thread, that walking and running are done with two different gaits. Is this necessarily so? If yes, why?
It seems to me (but I might be wrong), that the only difference between my walking and running is the speed: I walk on the forefoot without overstriding, as I do in running and the movement of hips, knees, ankles and feet seem to be exactly the same. There is a very short moment in walking when both feet touch the ground simultaneously, which disappears as soon as I begin running, but the change from walking to running happens in a very fluid manner: I can't perceive any essential difference.
 
Hello everybody,
I've read a couple of times in this thread, that walking and running are done with two different gaits. Is this necessarily so? If yes, why?
It seems to me (but I might be wrong), that the only difference between my walking and running is the speed: I walk on the forefoot without overstriding, as I do in running and the movement of hips, knees, ankles and feet seem to be exactly the same. There is a very short moment in walking when both feet touch the ground simultaneously, which disappears as soon as I begin running, but the change from walking to running happens in a very fluid manner: I can't perceive any essential difference.

Walking doesn't normally occur on the forefoot. A friend of mine is currently doing research on the issue, and the findings are fascinating. Almost all adults walk with a heel-toe motion. Most kids after the age of five do the same. Kids under five are about 50/50. Shoes may be an extraneous variable.

Most adults will walk on their forefoot/midfoot when walking over a painful stimulus, but otherwise walk heel-toe. So... you're an exception to the rule. ;)
 
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Walking doesn't normally occur on the forefoot. A friend of mine is currently doing research on the issue, and the findings are fascinating. Almost all adults walk with a heel-toe motion. Most kids after the age of five do the same. Kids under five are about 50/50. Shoes may be an extraneous variable.

Most adults will walk on their forefoot/midfoot when walking over a painful stimulus, but otherwise walk heel-toe. So... you're an exception to the rule. ;)
Jason, is it just modern society that walks heel-toe or do third world countries where shoes are much less common walk the same way? Walking in thick shoes I walk heel-toe because the shoe almost forces me to, barefoot on the other hand or in (I hate this term) barefoot style shoes I walk more forefoot or midfoot.
 
Great answer, and I would say the same about what ultra runners tell me. The smart ones that do core stuff say their glutes are sore. Still think we can cooperate with gravity but I'll let that one go.

What are your thoughts on elastic recoil? How do we maximize it? Stretching, strengthening, relaxing, pelvic/spinal rotation?
 
Okay, I spent an inordinate amount of time digging through a litany of posts all over the Interwebz. As it turns out, most of the criticism of the "running is a controlled fall" theory is directed at Pose. This isn't a surprise since a) Pose coaches tend to claim scientific principles are responsible for the efficiency of Pose, thus invoking the ire of real scientists, and b) Pose makes claims of performance, whereas ChiRunning focuses on the enjoyment of running.

The best critique (easy to understand) can be found here: http://canute1.wordpress.com/2010/02/14/problems-with-pose/

A great argument with the associated math can be found here: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/huaraches/19f8Pe45Z1Q. The thread is ridiculously long, but Gordo and OrionFrye provide the physics explanation and associated math that debunk the theory (note- they're actually experts, not just a coach claiming to understand the physics).

The root of the problem seems to be a difference between perception and the reality of the underlying biomechanics. If you lean forward when running, it feels like gravity is pulling you forward. Indeed, there's a correlation between pace and degree of the lean. However, it's an illusory correlation and a perceptual illusion. You don't feel which muscles are contracting to induce forward motion because it's largely a reflex (doesn't require conscious though). Gravity does play a role in running, but not as a force that propels you forward.

In both ChiRuning and Pose (and Good Form Running), the underlying explanation makes for a good teaching tool, but it's a misrepresentation of what's actually occurring. I'd say it's perfectly okay to tell people they're falling forward as a means of teaching the principles of "natural running" so long as you understand that's not what's really happening.
 
Yes, you are. You have a folk understanding that helps you coach others with a similar level of (mis)understanding. The sun appears to rise in the east, but in fact the earth is rotating eastwards. This misunderstanding doesn't in any way impede one from telling time by looking at the 'position' of the sun in the sky. Use your Illusion as Guns 'n Roses said.
Again, I disagree. And the results of what I teach is what matters.

But again, I will share this exercise to prove (at least to me) that gravity can help us move:

Walk (or run) normally. Then lean backwards from the ankles. Notice how it feels. Then lean forwards from the ankles. Notice how it feels. Now find that 'sweet spot' where walking or running is the easiest.

Why is there a change in speed/ease?
 
Jason, is it just modern society that walks heel-toe or do third world countries where shoes are much less common walk the same way? Walking in thick shoes I walk heel-toe because the shoe almost forces me to, barefoot on the other hand or in (I hate this term) barefoot style shoes I walk more forefoot or midfoot.

Good question. Initial observation seems to indicate walking heel-toe is universal, but no controlled studies have been done.That's part of the goal of studying children... but that has problems, too.

Modern shoes (non-minimalist shoes) are built as rockers, so they more or less force a heel-toe walking gait. The issue with you would be knowledge- do you walk more midfoot/forefoot because you lose the rockered shoe, or do you do it because of your exposure to the barefoot/minimalist world and consciously (or unconsciously) walk on your midfoot?
 
Great answer, and I would say the same about what ultra runners tell me. The smart ones that do core stuff say their glutes are sore. Still think we can cooperate with gravity but I'll let that one go.

What are your thoughts on elastic recoil? How do we maximize it? Stretching, strengthening, relaxing, pelvic/spinal rotation?

I think the best way to describe the role of gravity and Chi/Pose/natural running would be to say the running form teaches you to minimize the energy needed to overcome gravity (and friction and air resistance).

Regarding elastic recoil- good question. I think we'd first have to figure out if the actual tendons can be manipulated to become more efficient. I think there's probably a certain degree of range of motion that would maximize the potential for elastic recoil, and Dicharry and Cucuzzella talk about that. They even have some tests and associated stretches if range of motion is limited. I don't know of any published research that discusses the issue though, so I'm skeptical.
 
When walking barefoot I walk midfoot or forefoot because it hurts like hell for me to walk heel-toe. Bone is not meant to land on hard surfaces (concrete, pavement, rocks) and when it does it doesn't feel good, at least in my experiment of one that's how I perceive it. I also do not have a very big fat pad on the heel so maybe that's also a contributing factor to why I can't walk heel-toe without pain.
 
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Again, I disagree. And the results of what I teach is what matters.

But again, I will share this exercise to prove (at least to me) that gravity can help us move:

Walk (or run) normally. Then lean backwards from the ankles. Notice how it feels. Then lean forwards from the ankles. Notice how it feels. Now find that 'sweet spot' where walking or running is the easiest.

Why is there a change in speed/ease?
Look up at the sun. Note its position. Look up again an hour later. Note its position again. Why is there a change in position? You can prove (at least to yourself) that the sun has moved.

The point is: we can't trust our intuitions or perceptions. That is not science. That is folk knowledge. If everything were as it appears, there would be no need for science. If you really want to know why gravity can't move you forward, look it up. Jason's link to Canute's post is a good place to start. Or read Newton.

But I agree with you that the results of what you teach are what matters. Why? Because you're a coach, not a scientist. I imagine you are much more accomplished runner than I am (which isn't saying much unfortunately), and I could learn a lot from you, but being good at something and understanding the underlying principles are two different things. Ask a baseball player to describe a ball's trajectory using calculus. He will most likely fail. As a scientist to hit a home run off of a 90-mile-an-hour fastball. He too will fail. Apples and oranges.
 
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Again, I disagree. And the results of what I teach is what matters.

But again, I will share this exercise to prove (at least to me) that gravity can help us move:

Walk (or run) normally. Then lean backwards from the ankles. Notice how it feels. Then lean forwards from the ankles. Notice how it feels. Now find that 'sweet spot' where walking or running is the easiest.

Why is there a change in speed/ease?

I think we can invoke Occam's razor here. As an alternative to the gravity hypothesis, I'd say it's easier because leaning forward changes the vector of the "push" derived from the glutes. When we lean back, the energy from hip extension is directed backward. In order to move forward, we have to use hip flexion and knee extension to get our feet in front of our center of gravity. Both of these motions are normally passive, so the extra energy needed results in less efficiency. Also, leaning back probably directs any elastic recoil backward, which is another force to be overcome. When we lean forward, we can induce motion using the glutes and the other motions become passive.In essence, leaning forward utilizes our anatomy. Leaning backward causes some of our anatomy to work against us.
 
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Bare Lee, great great answer. I am also a scientist (botanist) so I do appreciate science for sure, and I'm a geek. But I still don't get why the correct amount of lean helps me run more efficiently. Some have said it puts the hips in the proper position or it allows our feet to land in the most efficient place. Though I agree with these, I literally feel like I'm falling forward. Hence, moving forward for 'free'. Thoughts?
 
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When walking barefoot I walk midfoot or forefoot because it hurts like hell for me to walk heel-toe. Bone is not meant to land on hard surfaces (concrete, pavement, rocks) and when it does it doesn't feel good, at least in my experiment of one that's how I perceive it. I also do not have a very big fat pad on the heel so maybe that's also a contributing factor to why I can't walk heel-toe without pain.
Nick, I think the problem is you're going from barefoot running to barefoot walking. Give it some time you may find yourself walking heel-to-toe, after you've adapted. I have a fat heel pad. Like Jason said, I change to more of a forefoot landing on gravel and harsh surfaces, but on smooth concrete it's definitely heel-to-toe. And I can confirm from memory that most habitually barefoot populations walk heel-to-toe.
 
I think we can invoke Occam's razor here. As an alternative to the gravity hypothesis, I'd say it's easier because leaning forward changes the vector of the "push" derived from the glutes. When we lean back, the energy from hip extension is directed backward. In order to move forward, we have to use hip flexion and knee extension to get our feet in front of our center of gravity. Both of these motions are normally passive, so the extra energy needed results in less efficiency. Also, leaning back probably directs any elastic recoil backward, which is another force to be overcome. When we lean forward, we can induce motion using the glutes and the other motions become passive.In essence, leaning forward utilizes our anatomy. Leaning backward causes some of our anatomy to work against us.
Jason, that is what I'm playing around with now. And I think to a large degree you are correct. This is possibly the major reason a slight lean is more efficient. But I sure feel like falling...
Have you tried it? Do you not feel like you are being pulled forward?
 
After over a year and a half, wouldn't you think I would have built up this fat pad? Lee, I can also confirm from my time in Afghanistan that I saw a lot of the locals walking with a forefoot-midfoot strike mostly, but again this is a very very rocky region (kind of looks like God took a plow and churned all the rocks to the surface), so my experience may be skewed.
 
Bare Lee, great great answer. I am also a scientist (botanist) so I do appreciate science for sure, and I'm a geek. But I still don't get why the correct amount of lean helps me run more efficiently. Some have said it puts the hips in the proper position or it allows our feet to land in the most efficient place. Though I agree with these, I literally feel like I'm falling forward. Hence, moving forward for 'free'. Thoughts?
I'm sorry Damian, this will seem like a cop-out, but I really can't spend any more time here today. I've been promising myself not to get involved in these discussions for some time. I did read an excellent description of how the lean changes as we accelerate and decelerate to overcome inertia and to brake, respectively, but I don't know exactly where it is. I became pretty lazy about bookmarking and organizing stuff over this past summer. But it's out there. Magness is probably the best place to start. And I apologize for my curt tone. I didn't sleep very well, and I awoke to some knee pain after stupidly doing lateral abduction and adduction stuff yesterday while rehabbing a minor knee tweak.

Actually, if you don't mind me taking advantage of your experience as coach and runner, would you recommend complete rest or is it OK to begin running again once the pain has diminished to mere soreness? I mysteriously tweaked my knee three weeks ago less than a mile into a six-mile run. I could barely walk the next day, but the doc said my x-rays looked fine, and I was able to walk without a limp within 5 days or so. I began running short distances last week, after a two-week break, and am usually fine the next day, but the spot on the lower inside of the left knee is still a bit painful to the touch. I'm wondering if I should wait until there's no more tactile pain whatsoever, or if it's OK to run short distances as long as the post-run soreness goes away by the next day. The reason I'm in such a hurry to get back to running is that it's the only way I manage to sleep well. My strength training doesn't do that for me. And if anyone besides Damian has some thoughts on this, I'd also appreciate hearing those too.
 
Wow that is a cool story, it's good to know tendonitis goes away :)

Something I have been wondering recently and may be related to you, is what affect your body weight has in relation to running form and running injuries? Did you have any associated weight loss with your running history? And if so did your form improve?
Abide, I haven't had any change in weight much since high school. But weight loss can help reduce impact. You can also reduce impact by running more efficiently. Less up and down movement, pelvic rotation, feet landing closer to underneath your hips.

Also, if you want I can share with you some foods that speed up the healing process.