The Running Form Thread

After all this discussion what's the goal, to run with the least bounce, yet longest stride while keeping your pulse as low? I mean is it possible for people to actually consciously modify their running form for longer than a mile?
 
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The goal is to be a happier person. To do what you love. Someone can love and enjoy running more if it is easier, more joyful and they stay injury free.

Thousands of runners agree that Chi Running (and Pose, barefoot, etc) lower their perceived rate of exertion (running is easier).

Is it possible to consciously modify running form for longer than a mile? Of course. And eventually it becomes habit (sub-conscious).

10 years ago I suffered from chronic running injuries to the point where I was told by doctors I would never run again. For over 2 years, I could barely walk because of arthritis and tendonitis in both of my knees. After learning Chi Running, I have been injury free for the past 8 years, run ultra marathons and love running and life more than ever. Learning to run more efficiently has great awards. See why I'm so passionate about Chi Running and sharing it.
 
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The goal is to be a happier person. To do what you love. Someone can love and enjoy running more if it is easier, more joyful and they stay injury free.

Thousands of runners agree that Chi Running (and Pose, barefoot, etc) lower their perceived rate of exertion (running is easier).

Is it possible to consciously modify running form for longer than a mile? Of course. And eventually it becomes habit (sub-conscious).

10 years ago I suffered from chronic running injuries to the point where I was told by doctors I would never run again. For over 2 years, I could barely walk because of arthritis and tendonitis in both of my knees. After learning Chi Running, I have been injury free for the past 8 years, run ultra marathons and love running and life more than ever. Learning to run more efficiently has great awards. See why I'm so passionate about Chi Running and sharing it.

Wow that is a cool story, it's good to know tendonitis goes away :)

Something I have been wondering recently and may be related to you, is what affect your body weight has in relation to running form and running injuries? Did you have any associated weight loss with your running history? And if so did your form improve?
 
Hello,
I'm relatively new to barefoot running. I don't know if "understanding the science" will help me applying the theory to my practical running. In the end, it's all about feeling my body, isn't it? The problem is that the way somebody feels movements in his or her body can be quite different to what is seen or measured or suggested from the outside.
When I run, I don't see myself in profile, so adjusting my gait or improving my form by comparing it mentally with an ideal form is kind of awkward.

I learned a lot from books, but the concept I could never feel in my body whilst running is the leaning forward principle: It just doesn't feel right for me, creating all sorts of tensions.

Here is how I feel the movements of my body when running efficiently (that is: easy, lightly, painfree and most important: happily :) ):
It feels as if I had wheels instead of legs with the upper body keeping straight. The movement of the legs is like cycling without a bike. On a bike, the hips don't go up and down, it's just the legs that are wheeling around. And on normal bicycles (I don't mean the kind you use for competitions) you don't lean forward neither. But the forward motion happens nevertheless.
I hope, this makes sense - if not, never mind, it's just a beginner's funny ideas...
 
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My understanding of physics is so rudimentary that I've had to concentrate hard to follow this whole conversation. But I went to my son, who is a physics whiz and told him about the discussion here and he told me a couple of interesting things, which may or may not add to the discussion. He told me that the forces of friction play a role in moving forward and that we are using these forces to go forward. He claims that in order to make that first move to lean forward, we are pushing against friction, because to just move our center of mass we come up against the friction on the ground. So even in the chi-running position of falling forward, in order to to just even bring our back leg forward again, we still must push horizontally with the foot that is on the ground to make that move. We are pushing in a horizontal way. Just because it doesn't feel like pushing doesn't mean we're not pushing. In fact, he was telling me that in order to keep ourselves standing upright, balanced, we are actually using friction to do that. (My son used the example of sitting in a chair with wheels and feet on the floor and how you would pull or push horizontally to make the chair move forward or backward.) He said the reason a runner could still run on ice was that there was still some friction there. On a truly slippery frictionless surface, we wouldn't move forward. Our feet would just slip around. (I may have not explained that very well, or used the terms properly while attempting to do so, so I'm sorry about that if I am not being precise.)

Something else cool I learned while I was talking to him is that when we push using frictional forces to go forward, the earth moves too! The whole earth!! The movement of the earth is negligible, however, because of how large it is and how small we are.

I like using the chi-running/walking technique with my barefoot running because it is helpful to me in getting my body in a good position for running. I used to stick my leg way out in front of me, land on my heel, kind of pull and rock over my foot, back when I wore shoes. This has been a very difficult thing to change, but leaning forward has helped me feel more of my weight over my mid-foot, which has been helpful to me. I definitely move more efficiently and easily this way. I have been very confused by the idea of gravity and falling forward, however, so the whole discussion here has been interesting to me. I have been taking the word of the chi-running theorists about gravity helping propel one forward, but haven't been able to understand how. Have also been confused about how I'm "breaking" my fall. If I'm falling, then I land pretty hard on the foot that breaks the fall. Yet I'm supposed to land lightly, so in order to place my foot lightly under me while falling, I must be doing something to counteract gravity. Otherwise my foot would just slam into the ground. I figured I was handling the force of landing in the fall by having my knee bent. I have often been out there wondering what exactly propels me forward if I'm not supposed to push. It has almost driven my crazy trying to figure it all out. Lol!

My son explaining friction to me and the way we have to pull or push against it to move helped me understand this a little better. Now, the exact nature of the pushing and which muscles are being used (contracted) is another story. Still a bit confused about that.
 
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GREAT discussion! I think everyone is learning. I strongly agree with the points made by Jason, DayRunner and BF Fresca's son...we're all saying the same thing just in different language. Which is terrific because it will help more people understand.

Discussions/respectful debates like this are very useful; not because of theory but for application in how to coach runners. I've been a trainer/coach full time for over 12 years and while I like to geek out by reading and trying to understand research I'm much more interested in how to apply it to help people move better and be pain-free.

I learned Pose in 2002 from Graham Fletcher so I'm sure I had a good education into the Pose methodology and theory. I used Pose to teach running technique but after working with these methods for a couple of years and also learning more about human movement from non-Pose sources (including getting a graduate degree in exercise science) I found the "falling to run" and "pulling the foot off the ground" cues to be misleading and ineffective.

In my experience people inevitably ended up leaning too far to feel like they were falling. They would be out of control. But I do agree that some degree of leaning (which will increase a bit with increased speed) is important. Here's a simple way I teach it in my Core Running program.

Doing this in bare feet is best but you can also do it in shoes. Stand tall with your spine aligned long and strong, keeping the natural curves in your back. Soften your knees. Keeping tall alignment in your torso shift your weight forward onto the balls of your feet while keeping the heels on the ground. Now shift your weight back onto your heels without falling over and keeping the balls of your feet on the ground.

Shift back and forth between these two positions a few times- go as far as you can in each position without falling over. Now find a spot where you feel balanced between the balls of your feet and your heels (again keeping that tall torso position). Then shift your weight slightly forward towards the ball of the foot (maybe 60% on ball/40% on heel - not an exact measurement, just a cue).

As they're working on changing their technique I get my runners to do this simple drill and start each run in this position. This positions them in tall posture with a slight lean which may not be easy to see but which they will feel. And they are still balanced and in control.

A progression of this exercise is to do it on one leg.

A further progression, once they are able to feel stable on one leg with their weight slightly towards the front of the foot, is to play around with lateral pressure. While keeping tall posture on one leg with weight slightly forward put more pressure on the outside ball of the foot. Then put more pressure on the innermost ball of the foot. Next find a position where you feel balanced between outer and inner ball of foot. And finally put a bit more pressure on the inside ball of the foot. I'll use the 60/40 cue again but use whatever terms work for you. The point is to have a bit more pressure through the first ray - the big toe and the first metatarsal.

This is how you want to load the foot during running when you "take off". Dr. George Sheehan used the term "big toe, butt and belly." Loading properly through the big toe allows the glutes to fire and will also help activate the core properly. But it's difficult for people to feel this while moving because the stance phase is so short. By doing this while stationary they get to feel what the lean feels like as well as what proper loading through the foot and entire kinetic chain feels like.

This posture isn't very different from what Pose, Chi and numerous other methods try to teach. But I think the explanations they provide are wrong (i.e. falling forward).

I'm not saying my way is the ONLY way but wanted to share it as an example of how an understanding biomechanics and neuromuscular function affects how you coach/cue runners. Learning more about your subject matter will make you a better coach. That's why I recommend studying many different sources as opposed to just using what one school of thought teaches.
 
Hobbit, thanks for sharing your comments. I also believe that self-awareness of how we move is possibly the most important aspect of running with fewer injuries. You may want to check out the books written about running technique for visuals. I know the pictures in the Chi Running book helped me a ton when I first started. What really helped the most was having a certified instructor watch me and tell me what I was doing. Also, video analysis is sooo important! Most students I video say "I didn't know I did that..."

Barefoot Fresca, you are totally correct about friction. But ask your son this: Which is more efficient (easier)? To push your body weight foward or up the trail? Or is it easier to lift your leg?

I think it's obvious that it's easier to just lift one leg in front of the other for movement. Whether you fall, use gravity, pawback or whatever is a seperate issue. Yes, friction is needed for movement but pushing off with your back leg is incredibly inefficient and leads to lower leg injuries.

When you push off with your back leg, it uses small muscles not designed to do such a big job. Just allowing your legs to come up uses deep, large internal muscles (hip flexors/psoas) to create that movement. This is way more efficient. Try it yourself. Walk around for 5 minutes 'peeling your feet off the ground' not exaggerating the movement. Then walk around for 5 minutes pushing into the ground. Which is easier? It also results in less up and down movement which saves energy as well as reduces impact.
 
Jason - I dug up a couple of studies on Pose. Dallam et. all 2005 and Fletcher, Bartlett and Romanov 2010 both show that even with Pose there is vertical motion of COM. With Pose it's not as large as a control group but still there (which we would expect since you can't run without leaving the ground). I would add that minimizing vertical motion is a good thing.
 
Damian, the push/lift, however you want to describe it is a reflex. Of course pushing consciously into the ground is more work; I totally agree with that. Many runners work too hard. The common element in all these different schools of running is to use less energy/effort. It's the explanations I have an issue with. So yes you do "push off", it's just not an active motion but a passive one as Steve Magness would put it.
 
Here is a video of me showing and describing how I walk without pushing off or into the ground. Please watch the entire video to see the end result.

The key is to peel your feet off the ground and do not push into the ground when we walk or run. You do NOT want to exaggerate lifting your legs when you walk or run. Just peel the feet but don't push off.


We even teach this while walking or running on sand. We want to be as 'light' as possible by not creating an indent into the sand. The results are less up and down movement, less impact, and reduced energy usage wasted in pushing my body weight up and forward.
 
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Curb,

I agree that we agree :) But, I think a major reason recreational runners are inefficient when they run is because they believe movement is a result of pushing off with their back leg. From what I found in my teachings is that reducing this wasted energy results in running being easier, less up and down movement and fewer injuries. It's such an easy lesson with great results.

Also, when we don't push off into the ground (or push our body weight up and forward), there is less dorsiflexion. This results in less shin splints, less heel striking and this movement also engages the 'core'. Instead of using the calves to push us forward, the 'core' is engaged to create this 'peeling' action.

Again, I think different opinions and teachings are valuable because everyone learns differently. I might play around with how I teach posture with your previous post. These discussions are invaluable if we have open minds.
 
Jason, I knew I would hear that. You are correct, walking and running are completely different movement patterns. However, the easiest way of teaching and practicing 'peeling the feet' is walking. We then move on to practicing it when we run. Same concept and same benefits. The physical laws don't change when we walk or run. Would you agree that pushing off with the back leg is inefficient and the results can be harmful?
 
Jason, I knew I would hear that. You are correct, walking and running are completely different movement patterns. However, the easiest way of teaching and practicing 'peeling the feet' is walking. We then move on to practicing it when we run. Same concept and same benefits. The physical laws don't change when we walk or run. Would you agree that pushing off with the back leg is inefficient and the results can be harmful?

"Pushing off" is inherently a bad description of what's occurring because it lumps a lot of activity together. There are three major joints that play a role- the hip, the knee, and the ankle. After the foot touches the ground, all three joints can be utilized to produce force that propels us forward. The hip extends, the knee extension, and plantarflexion of the foot at the ankle. Hip extension good and is necessary; I'd argue THE primary force that propels us. Knee extension is minimal and probably mostly passive. I believe the plantarflexion of the foot is the "pushing off" you're talking about, which I would agree is both inefficient and harmful. In fact, this is probably one of the major reasons new "natural" runners have calf/Achilles issues.

When you talk about making divots, the first two "pushing off" motions will result in a flat footprint. The last will result in a footprint with a deep divot at the front of the print.
 
Here is something for everyone to try:

I recommend trying it walking because the same basic laws of physics applies both walking or running.

Walk normally. Then walk leaning backwards (from the ankles) as much as you can. Notice the difference. Now walk leaning forwards (from the ankles) as much as you can. Notice the difference. Play around with different amounts of lean both forwards and backwards. Where is the amount of lean that makes walking the easiest?

The question is: What causes this change in effort and/or speed?
 
Here is something for everyone to try:

I recommend trying it walking because the same basic laws of physics applies both walking or running.

Walk normally. Then walk leaning backwards (from the ankles) as much as you can. Notice the difference. Now walk leaning forwards (from the ankles) as much as you can. Notice the difference. Play around with different amounts of lean both forwards and backwards. Where is the amount of lean that makes walking the easiest?

The question is: What causes this change in effort and/or speed?

Here's a good explanation of the differences between walking and running from Maff:

http://naturalrunningcenter.com/2012/06/21/walking-vs-running-gaits/
 
Jason, I understand the differences in walking and running gaits. But physics is physics. The exercise works while running to0, please just try it!

I also agree the glutes can be used for power while running. I've seen Dr. C's videos before. But we are talking about ways of making running more efficient as well, not just power running.
 
But we are talking about ways of making running more efficient as well, not just power running.

Mark discusses the idea as a means of optimizing power (thus speed), but the same principle applies to efficiency. The glutes are the strongest muscles in the body. If you can optimize your gait to rely primarily on the glutes, you can run a really, really long distance before they fatigue. If the rest of the leg muscles are more or less passive, you can't get much more efficient.

When talking to ultrarunners, the first question I ask is which muscles are sore after a race. Ideally, none should be sore. If one muscle group is sore, they're relying on it too much and may benefit from relaxing it. Quads are the most common (they run with a walking gait.... overstriding with a heel strike). Calves are the second most common (relying on the bad "pushing off" we both described earlier).

That's not a great answer... but does it make sense?
 
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