The Running Form Thread

[damianstoy]

I would argue the phrase "not pushing off" is inaccurate because we're always producing downward force with the plant foot. The phrase "not pushing off with a concentric contraction of the calf muscles" would be a much better descriptor.

Regarding injuries- I'm personally in the same boat. I've been largely injury-free as an ultrarunner for years now. However, the research on injuries is poor at best, which is the reason for the caution in making the "reduced injury' claim.

Jason, I wonder if we are talking about the same thing. When I watch most runners, they are literally pushing their body weight up and forward using their legs. This is one thing that causes excessive up and down movement. Zero amount of pushing off the ground is required for forward movement. Of course the body needs to support its weight, but at no time do we need to push off to create forward movement.

An example would be running on ice. If I were to, I would be fine. But most people would slip because they are trying to push off the ground for forward movement. The same is similar for sand and snow.

 

[Last Place Jason]

I'd say it depends on the grade. If your foot can comfortably dorsiflex, I'd say let the heel touch. The problems arise if the grade is too steep and the heel can't touch. That puts A LOT of strain on the calf during long climbs. For that, I try to use obstacles as "steps" to unload the calf as often as possible.

 

[Last Place Jason]

I'd say it depends on the grade. If your foot can comfortably dorsiflex, I'd say let the heel touch. The problems arise if the grade is too steep and the heel can't touch. That puts A LOT of strain on the calf during long climbs. For that, I try to use obstacles as "steps" to unload the calf as often as possible.

 

[Last Place Jason]

If you place a runner on a force plate, they're always going to register a > body weight force no matter what technique is used. I think this may be a major misconception among the "gravity" crowd. While it feels like you're not pushing off, you are. Trust me... been to a few labs to test the theory.

The reason your foot doesn't slip backward as most runners do is because you're able to mitigate the amount of force supplied to achieve forward motion. The same concept happens when running up a steep grade on a loose surface. Think of it as traction control.

 

[damianstoy]

Jason, really I'm not so sure. Think about it. When I run in sand, I leave a foot print because of my body weight and some downward force due to gravity. But I don't leave a divot like most runners. They push down into the sand whereas I just lift my leg off the ground. To me, this is a huge difference.

Again, they are pushing into the ground and I am lifting. If I were pushing, wouldn't I leave a divot? And if others are leaving divots, aren't they wasting energy?

 

[Last Place Jason]

Positive. If you can find a local lab, test it out.

 

[damianstoy]

Positive. If you can find a local lab, test it out.

Ok, I trust you. I believe you that I push into the ground a little bit. But I believe most runners push quite a bit more than me. They are using their calves way too much when they run. This causes premature fatigue and injuries. Would you agree?

 

[damianstoy]

Speaking of running uphill and the calf muscle contraction, what is the proper way to handle the eccentric component while climbing hills? Obviously on flat surfaces the heel touches, is it also accepted that you let heel touch uphill?

In Chi Running, we teach a side hill technique which is very effective for running uphills and efficiently. It also allows your body to release the calves when running uphill. I use it a lot because I run in the mountains and I have 'tight' calves. It saves me all the time!

 

[Curb Ivanic]

Damian, while there's debate on things like footstrike, footwear, etc and injury rates there is enough research and data that tells us what propels us when we run. It's a cop out to say biomechanics studies have flaws; no study is perfect but collectively there is enough evidence to say that you actually do PUSH off the ground (and the ground pushes back). If you didn't you wouldn't move forward.

The theory that gravity causes forward motion doesn't hold up to observed facts. Gravity can only have one direction of pull and that is down. To move forward you need to counter gravity's force.

Let's look at what happens when we run. Imagine there's a wide dot marking the center of mass (COM) on a runner that we're viewing from the side. As the runner moves from mid-stance to take-off and into flight phase his COM is moving upward. There is always a vertical component to the running gait as well as a horizontal. (too much isn't good but there will always be some up and down motion).

According to the falling forward theory, gravity pulls you forward because you're leaning and off-balance. However according to physical laws, gravity can only pull down. So as you lean, the COM is being pulled down by gravity. But as has been observed in gait studies, COM is actually moving UP as the runner initially moves forward.

COM will be traveling down in the latter stage of flight so I guess that you could say in that portion the runner is in a "controlled fall". But that's like saying a jumping is controlled falling. You jump up in the air and then come back down. But we don't call that controlled falling, we call it a jump. You need to counteract the effects of gravity to initiate movement.

As opposed to using the term controlled fall why not use a more accurate description - running is springing from foot to foot. You load the spring and it bounces forward. Gravity does not provide the energy to move forward.

 

[Curb Ivanic]

To demonstrate the above I'll repost the video I showed in the FB thread. I use these elites because they are highly skilled and this is a 10,000 m race so it's not a sprint.

Running at ~ 5 min/mile is way faster than the pace ran by most recreational runners. But the difference in movement is in only in magnitude (faster running demonstrates higher knee lift, higher kick, longer stride and slightly higher cadence); the principles stay the same.

Watch the runners, you can even pause it in the stance phase. They aren't leaning forward excessively, if anything they're just staying in tall posture.

Note the motion in the spine and hips. Spine, hips, knee flex as they land (loading the spring) and then spine, hips and leg extend as they move forward (spring unloads). It's hard to see but there is some up and down motion as well. As I described above, COM travels upward in an arc from mid-stance, reaching a high point in mid-flight and then back down into the next stance phase.

I'm sure Ken will have some thoughts but I just don't see any way that gravity can propel you forward while you stay upright.

 

[damianstoy]

Curb,
Thanks for the post and I agree with most of your points. For the sake of moving the discussion along, I'll agree with you about gravity. But, as a Chi Running instructor, 'the lean' is a very useful tool to get runners to run more efficiently including reducing heel strike and over striding. I see this everyday in my students.

I really enjoy your comments about loading and unloading and I believe this is where the majority of our movement comes from. And in CR, we teach this via 'needle in cotton' and allowing the pelvis/spine to rotate. This gets deep, internal muscles such as the psoas and obliques to do the work and not so much the legs.

However, I still disagree that it is natural/efficient to push off when we run. The video you posted confirms this. They are not pushing off with their back leg. They have a huge kick behind them, something we teach in CR. To open up to the back, not the front like most recreational runners do. Can you please explain how when I run on snow or sand, I do not leave an imprint besides my footprint from my body weight and some downward force. A push off would leave a divot.

I wonder if when I say push off, it is different from your meaning. When I say it, I literally mean the runner is pushing off the ground with their back leg to push themselves forward. Of course we have to meet the force of the ground and resist it. But we don't have to push our body weight forward.

Please think about this: Imagine I am running uphill. Which is more efficient? To push my body weight up the hill? Or to lean from the ankles, fall forward and JUST lift my leg up? Since I am leaning from the ankles, I 'fall' forward and all I have to do is lift my leg up. This is way more efficient than pushing my body weight up hill. Trust me, I see it all the time. Most recreational runners are trying to take big strides and push their body up a mountain. I can easily run uphill all day because all I am doing is lifting my legs. This uses big, strong muscles to do the work.

 

[Last Place Jason]

I believe the disagreement comes from a misunderstanding of terminology. Curb's referring to "pushing off" as the force that's used to propel the runner forward, which is a function of hip extension and elastic recoil. When done correctly, this won't result in a divot other than the body weight + downward force... there should be no divot at the front of the print caused by the toes digging in.

Damian, your definition is the "pushing off' caused by a concentric contraction of the calf to 'launch" the body forward after the body has moved over the foot. When runners do this sort of "pushing off", they leave that tell-tale divot.

I think we're all pretty much on the same page that the former type of "pushing off' is correct, and the latter is incorrect.

To Curb's point about the gait analysis from the side- it would be very interesting to see a well-trained Pose (or Chi) runner hooked up to a computer and video that could analyze the position of the joints at hundreds of frames per second. This setup is what's used to measure the gait Curb talked about. It would provide the evidence to determine if the falling theory is what's really happening, or is the gait of Pose and Chi runners the same as others that run with what we consider "good form." As far as I know, no such video exists. Have you guys encountered anything like that?

 

[damianstoy]

Jason, great comments. I have wondered the same about a video analysis for myself. I would love for my gait to be analyzed because I have, to be honest, very efficient technique. I'll talk to MSU and see if I can get it done.

Here are some thoughts about the gravity argument. I just proved gravity (or some external force) does propel me when I walk. I just tried walking, and what happened is my weight shifts to the front of my foot and my body weight (center of mass?) shifts forward. I then literally fall forward. Is this momentum, gravity?

This picture shows me leaning from the ankles and using gravity HERE

Notice, I connect my dots (ankle, hip, shoulder) during the landing phase when my foot is at its highest point. It is only about 1-2" of lean, not much. The same as the elites. The lean allows my weight to shift forward and then I fall forward.

 

[damianstoy]

I have posted two videos on my Facebook page, please take a look at. I would have posted them here, but I don't know how.

They show how pushing off while running or walking is inefficient and how we do use gravity to move.

https://www.facebook.com/WholisticRunning

 

[Curb Ivanic]

Jason's totally correct. The push-off isn't really a conscious action but is set up by a good landing from the flight phase. You eccentrically load the body to best utilize elastic recoil throughout the feet, legs and hips.

Now to Damian's point about running & walking, don't confuse the two. They are two distinct movement patterns. Running is not simply fast walking. I believe this is the problem with many recreational runners, they haven't learned the difference between running and walking so their movement is kind of a blend. Which is why they try to push off or lift the knee/leg when they should be using recoil to do this.

 

[damianstoy]

Curb, yes! Now we are getting somewhere. The lifting of the knee happens 'automatically' via recoil for sure!

Would you agree that most runners push off when they run? And if so, is this not efficient?

How do you teach folks to not 'confuse' running and walking? How do you teach runners to use recoil when it should happen automatically?

 

[Curb Ivanic]

Getting back to the point about gravity, you still can't use it to run. The term "controlled fall" is inappropriate and inaccurate. You are either falling or you're doing something else (my example of jumping above. You jump up and then "fall" back to the ground. But we don't call that a "controlled fall" do we?)

To fall you need to be unbalanced which means out of control. If you're not out of control you are balanced. But let's move away from simple language and try some experiments to get my point across. All you kids watching at home can try this too. Isn't science fun?

Experiment #1: Standing broad jump.

Trial 1: Mark a line on the ground and stand behind the line. Lean forward ("from the ankles") until you feel like you're falling then jump forward as far as you can - see if you can use gravity to help your jump. Have someone watching you so they can mark where you land. Or do it in a sand pit or step in wet paint. Repeat 5 - 10 times.

Trial 2: Stand behind the line and simply jump as far forward as you can. Don't worry about leaning, simply aim to do a good jump. Repeat 5 - 10 times.

Which method allowed you to jump farther and with greater control? (Hint: it's not #1).

Gravity can only exert a downward force. By leaning so far forward that you're falling you now have to counteract a greater amount of force than when standing balanced and you're also unbalanced, so you won't be able to generate as much force.

Experiment #2: Sprint finish.

Watch a close sprinting race. Notice how at the finish line the runners lean forward really far? Yes they are allowing themselves to fall. But what happens? They're out of control and need to take steps to stop themselves or they'll fall flat on their face. They reach out with their legs in a long stride to stop the forward momentum.

So I would say they are no longer running but actually falling. But I wouldn't advise trying to run this way. You'll fall then have to regain balance and fight the gravitational force pulling you down, thereby slowing your momentum. Every fall you'd need to take long steps to stop the fall. In effect you'd be accelerating and then rapidly decelerating. I wouldn't call this movement running. It'd be jerky, forceful and not efficient to move for any length of time beyond a few steps. To run you need to be in balance and you can be in balance with a slight lean.

 

[damianstoy]

Curb,

Please check out my picture I posted on Facebook of me running. The lean we are talking about is 1-2". It's so slight most people watching don't notice it. The problem is when I video runners, they are completely upright and some are even leaning backwards. They are "fighting gravity". Sounds crazy but I see it all the time. So experiment #2 you are correct. That much lean is too much and silly.

Experiment #1: You are correct, running is not jumping. Also, watch my videos on Facebook of me walking. Each step I take I fall forward. Running is the same thing. Then my legs just come up behind me.

 

[Last Place Jason]

Tough to respond, crewing for a 100 in BFE right now.

The ultimate test: record someone the moment the body travels over the support foot (the "pose" of Pose). In the next few frames, do their hips move up or down? Current data shows they move up. The gravity theory would say they move down.

 

[damianstoy]

Oh come on, crewing is a bunch of sitting around. Just kidding, it's more difficult than running.

Yes, the hips (and body) go up and down. This comes from a few factors but doesn't prove the gravity theory wrong. Here is why:

Please watch my video of me walking. To walk, I step, weight goes forward to the front of my foot, center of mass is moved forward and I 'fall' for the next step. What is moving my body forward when I fall forward?

***To be honest, I think it is silly to argue about the gravity thing. I don't actually care. But the reason why the lean is SO important is for this reason. If a runner is very upright or leaning backwards, their feet are going to land out in front of them, usually with a heel strike. By slightly leaning from the ankles thus changing the angle of the body, the feet land more underneath the hips and it is almost impossible to then heel strike.

The reason this is so important is because of the force of the ground coming at you when you run. Just like riding a skateboard, if I were to reach out in front of me while riding a skateboard, it would act like a brake and slow me down (and hurt). Instead, on a skateboard, you place your foot underneath you and kick back. Basic physics!