Relaxation and bending knees

30 foot jaunt up and down my driveway yesterday
Sorry you hurt after your 30 ft jaunt. I just did about the same in my huaraches after taking the garbage out and could feel some pain in my right heel. Glad I didn't try to test out this new strapping system any more. Seems I am fine to walk in the huaraches but lord help me if I run. No, seriously, help me lord. I don't want to hurt anymore. Please?
 
as a further tweak, the timing of your push to achieve/maintain lift.
but it should never feel like a "push" per se
....see....easy! :D
 
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A couple of questions/thoughts (not drinking related).

1. Knee bending means different things to different people. When some people think knee bending they think about the knee return, or picking their knees up. I think more about sinking my hips to allow my foot landing to stay under my body, and also it facilitates the heel coming to rest after the forefoot. If we were to see you run, ideally your leg is never locked upon landing (or even close to straight). Lomad mentions that it is possible to bend the knee to much.....and I wouldn't argue with that.....but I would say that IMO it is far more likely that the knees are bent insufficiently than too much. That opinion is also shared by Ken Bob Saxton (whose advice I weight very heavily).

2. Where is your knee pain ? Is it outside of the knee joint, inside, or within the joint itself ? Knee pain is sometimes caused by very weak hips and glutes. I had one knee that bothered me when I started barefoot running, which turned out to be ITBS. I ended up feeling pain outside of my right knee and then eventually (weeks later) in my right hip. I did exercises to strenghten my hips and glutes, and practiced balancing on one leg for at least 10 minutes every day (not all at once). The proprioception develop is also important here.

I have no idea whether either of these are in the ballpark of what's causing your issue, but thought I'd mention them just in case.
 
PS: Sorry to B.O.B. for hijacking your thread....
Now you have to read through pages of irrelevant comments (well irrelevant in terms of your knee bend while running.....very relevant in terms of life lessons :barefoot:)
 
So true, and so tricky.



You have to remember that before BG took up BFR, he had already been running for close to 2 decades, so his case might not be that exemplary, although I wholly endorse it when possible.

Fair criticism; but even in small doses, the 'just run' approach will inform your overall understanding of yourself as a runner.

Woah. That was way too philosophical to have come from me. I have to go make a drinking joke now...
 
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Sorry you hurt after your 30 ft jaunt. I just did about the same in my huaraches after taking the garbage out and could feel some pain in my right heel. Glad I didn't try to test out this new strapping system any more. Seems I am fine to walk in the huaraches but lord help me if I run. No, seriously, help me lord. I don't want to hurt anymore. Please?

The current weather really (REALLY) makes me want to be a barefoot runner. Exercises like yesterday reaffirm my current path, however...i hope you're healing along well, though!
 
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The current weather really (REALLY) makes me want to be a barefoot runner. Exercises like yesterday reaffirm my current path, however...i hope you're healing along well, though!
I am really really struggling with this break. Today is absolutely wonderful and I want to take advantage of it. Unfortunately that trip to the garbage can and back reminded me that I need this break. I'm not healing like I want (it should be immediate right when resting?:D).
 
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It seems to me that a far more productive path towards making sure your knees and hips are working properly, besides running, is to do strength, flexibility, and balance exercises when you're not running. Then when you are, focus on good form, which is basically posture and foot landing, and perhaps, as a further tweak, the timing of your push to achieve/maintain lift.
Disclaimer: I know nothing about proper form and can tell you nothing about the right amount of knee bend.

On the other hand, what I have found is that though I'd been moderately active for years before bf running, little muscles and definitely feet and tendons were weak. My balance was weak. My hips and glutes were no where near what they needed to be (even with shod running, i managed to get away with it).
What I do know is that the more I keep up with my balance, hip strengthening, and squats, the more I seem to feel my whole legs being used to run, the less discomfort I feel. Though my knees don't usually act up, I can feel a tiny tingle of ITBS when I start slacking off on my hip/glute strengthening. Incorporating trail, uneven ground, and hills to my running seems to have also improved the smaller, supportive muscles that keep my form honest.

As far as knee bend, I feel like I bend them more the rougher the surface, without trying to on purpose. In fact, I try not to think too much about my form much when I run unless I'm wearing any type of shoes, in which case I have to be vigilant.
 
I'm all the time working on my form, but i feel little pain dependent on how I'm running. I just can't figure out the right form for me :oops:

I agree with what many people here say as well, the more you get in your head the harder it is to find your form. I personally (and with one of my friends at least) have found that knee pain is often caused by unnatural torquing forces on the knee, a twisting force if you will. Are you attempting to "straighten-out" your feet when they land or anything?
 
What do you think concretely? Should I simply stop thinking and run on the ball of my feet?

There are a million and one theories out there about what constitutes good running form, but in reality we are all different, we may share similar physiology but how that physiology develops is vastly influenced by our surroundings, our upbringing, the food we eat and the society we live in.
Some of us will have strong knees, others will have weak ankles or an imbalanced core, there is no one size fits all or magic panacea just a few basic guides to draw from such as 'too much too soon'.
My running philosophy my vary greatly from yours, my goals are different, so only you can answer the question what am i doing wrong?
Step back from the noise of the world, learn to trust your own instincts, listen to your body and above all enjoy what you are doing!
Children will dash about all day long without getting injured so why should it be any different for adults! Things are not as complicated as they may first appear, you are a runner because you were born a runner, some of us are born to run fast, some long and slow, but the bottom line is we are all runners so you are not doing anything wrong other than over-complicating things.
There is a case where you may have developed medical problems through years of wearing bad shoes, or past lifestyle choices, if that's the case then you may need to seek some advice from a professional, again only you can resolve that question.
Hope that helps some, it's the way i view things, may be overly simplistic to some, but isn't over-complicating our natural state the thing that got us all injured in the first place.
 
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There are a million and one theories out there about what constitutes good running form
Hey Skedaddle, although I agree with most of your comment, I think I would rephrase this sentence as not so much a million and one theories about what constitutes good running form, as a million and one theories about how to achieve good running form. If you look past all the various coaching cues, and models of what a runner needs to do/is doing, you may find that most of them are in service of the same form, with some variation. The secret, as you suggest, is to take into account each person's previous history of running/shoddedness/sports/injuries, and couple that with one's genetics or body type.
 
... even in small doses, the 'just run' approach will inform your overall understanding of yourself as a runner.
I actually think that makes a lot of sense. And the 'just run' approach on its own can probably work for a lot of people with sports backgrounds, but I look out my window at some of the runners going by (all shod) and see a wide range of form, some of it quite atrocious. I imagine some of them would improve just by taking off their shoes, but some of them definitely need someone to help them with posture.
 
but I look out my window at some of the runners going by (all shod) and see a wide range of form, some of it quite atrocious. I imagine some of them would improve just by taking off their shoes, but some of them definitely need someone to help them with posture.

But without them, where would our smug sense of superiority be directed? I kid, I kid. I agree with this, and as a currently shod runner, I try to both run in the principles of barefoot-style (often confused with Shaolin, or even Monkey style) as much as is possible. The shoes do add a degree of challenge at times, particularly when fatigued, but I try to be an example of a better way to use the body as a runner for those around me.

It's kind of funny. I haven't run barefoot in 9 or 10 months now but most of my non-close friends and acquaintances identify me as 'the barefoot running guy' and ask me form questions all the time. Scary, I know. But, they all know I had a lot of success with the FORM of bfr before i got hurt and have carried it over to shoerunnin'.

The wide world of runners, just out there plodding (couldn't resist) along could stand to do more than 'just run.' Maybe when it comes to barefoot running the 'just run' approach has better results because the body is self limiting to a degree and will teach its lessons in a snap (TMTS, anyone? c,mon Lee, Nick...raise those hands...mine is up for sure). But, and I think Nick and Gentile could back me on this, once you get the feel for what your body is doing, even just a bit, it becomes easier to 'just run' with improved results.

But I'm a bg mouthed know nothin', so don't trust my word on this stuff. I am working on my Chi-drinking certification, though. I can coach that...
 
But without them, where would our smug sense of superiority be directed? I kid, I kid. I agree with this, and as a currently shod runner, I try to both run in the principles of barefoot-style (often confused with Shaolin, or even Monkey style) as much as is possible. The shoes do add a degree of challenge at times, particularly when fatigued, but I try to be an example of a better way to use the body as a runner for those around me.

It's kind of funny. I haven't run barefoot in 9 or 10 months now but most of my non-close friends and acquaintances identify me as 'the barefoot running guy' and ask me form questions all the time. Scary, I know. But, they all know I had a lot of success with the FORM of bfr before i got hurt and have carried it over to shoerunnin'.

The wide world of runners, just out there plodding (couldn't resist) along could stand to do more than 'just run.' Maybe when it comes to barefoot running the 'just run' approach has better results because the body is self limiting to a degree and will teach its lessons in a snap (TMTS, anyone? c,mon Lee, Nick...raise those hands...mine is up for sure). But, and I think Nick and Gentile could back me on this, once you get the feel for what your body is doing, even just a bit, it becomes easier to 'just run' with improved results.

But I'm a bg mouthed know nothin', so don't trust my word on this stuff. I am working on my Chi-drinking certification, though. I can coach that...
Yah, I agree. Twenty years ago I 'just ran' barefoot, no problem. Now I over-intellectualize everything too much, and the real irony is that I've pretty much come back full circle to where I was before I began reading up on all the barefoot, running, exercise, physiology, biomechanics, training protocols, blah, blah, blah, and have returned to weights one day, running the next, each about an hour, only now I also row more, and have a foam roller that I plan on using, and a bosu ball that I never have--it's out in the yard by the kids' playground. Ok, and I've also usefully learned to incorporate fartleks and hills into my weekly routine. I concede that.

Anyway, I forgot to mention that a certain percentage of the runners I see go by do seem to have good form, although I'm not versed enough in the shoe market to tell whether they're using minimalist shoes or not. I did see a 12ish girl running alongside her mother yesterday, in heavy trainers, happily springing along with a nice forefoot landing just in front of her CoM, her inner barefoot innocence still intact, uncorrupted by the terrible shod world.
 
BL- I agree with the "coming full circle thing." When I first started, there was very little info out there. I just ran and figured things out mostly on my own. As discussions on forums progressed, my theories and teaching methods got more complex as we tried to intellectualize every minute detail. Eventually I realized we weren't helping most people, which began a period of simplification. A major component of that trend is the realization that a) people are different and will develop slightly different styles based on their individual physiology, and b) different people have different learning styles. The key is accounting for "a" while figuring out which"b" will be most successful.

Add in the fact that we (the collective running world) really don't know squat about running and you get a million and one divergent opinions.
 
I actually think that makes a lot of sense. And the 'just run' approach on its own can probably work for a lot of people with sports backgrounds, but I look out my window at some of the runners going by (all shod) and see a wide range of form, some of it quite atrocious. I imagine some of them would improve just by taking off their shoes, but some of them definitely need someone to help them with posture.

When I see this, I wince, no smugness; rather, I think of all the people I know who would benefit and enjoy exercise and running, but with little body awareness, and less physical fitness, run out their doors a few times, only to learn that exercise hurts hurts hurts. Much of that I believe could be avoided by teaching technique and approaches to fitness. Maybe some would be completely fixed by just taking off their shoes; I doubt it, even if you could convince them to try it.
It's sad that we as a nation don't emphasize physical fitness and how to approach it from childhood on up, but that's a story for another day.
 
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