Possibly accidentally came across the root problem of my foot/ankle pain

I have had PF for probably close to a year now. I started seeing a PT almost two months ago and he has gotten rid the PF, however a new problem has developed which is ankle/foot pain on the outside edge of the foot just below the ankle. Kind of felt like things binding up. Anyhow, the PT hasn't been able to figure that problem out more than temporarily (maybe 5 minutes). I had my PT apt last night and may have stumbled accidentally upon the root cause of my problems. My PT had me do some barefoot squats and he noticed that my arch on my right foot (the foot that is bothering me) collapses as I squat down. He gave me some exercises to do at home and away I went (short story anyhow).

This morning I was looking online about arches collapsing when doing squats, when I accidentally came across a gym rats rant about people doing squats duckfooted and walking this way, and how it causes the arch to collapse and the ankle to roll in an unnatural way. Anyhow, I already know that I am duckfooted on the right foot so this rings a bell for me. I decide to test it and do barefoot squats in the kitchen on the tile and doing them my natural way the arch collapsed, but sure as it rains here in Portland when I straightened my foot my arch did not collapse and my ankle did not roll in nor did it hurt. I ran some errands this morning and I really focused on trying to walk as straight as I could and had no foot pain, although my ankle, arch, and knee all fatigued quite a bit. This felt weird, but maybe this is why I have so many problems with that right foot. Basically I am looking for some advice on how to correct this duckfooted problem in my right leg and if this is a correct assumption that this could be the root problem. Thanks for all the advice you all have given me in the past and the advice you will give me on this.
 
The problem is that you overpronate on that side. While some of the folk here will likely disagree, this is a perfect example of someone who can benefit from a foot orthotic. In my experience, no amount of foot strengthening changes the way your foot is shaped. Turning it in may relieve the problem however, I will go out on a limb and tell you to consider having the peroneals and the peroneal tendon worked on. It is possible, seeing this many times before that you have tendonosis, not plantar fascitiis as you were diagnosed with. Also, due to the high arch, the calf is likely quite tight along with the rest of the body and you may do better with a sports chiro who can do active release or something similar with foot manipulation.
 
I've been told I was neutral, but that my right foot toes out. I also have a very low arch in that foot while the left foot is more normal. The sports PT I've been seeing has done quite a bit for me with the ASTYM treatment and has unlocked my heel a couple times through manipulation. He has also "unbinded" that spot I explained just under the ankle bone on the outside edge of the foot. I wasn't trying to change the shape of my foot, my shoes I was raised in already did that. I was trying to find out if there are exercises I can do which can help me turn my foot more inwards so it doesn't toe out (duckfoot) anymore. From what I've read (very limited mind you and I know internet is not always accurate which is why I ask you all here) you can retrain the muscles so that you are not duckfooted anymore. The articles I had read said that your muscles have been trained with the out turned foot so you have to retrain them. I haven't always been duckfooted either. I think this is a more recent development in the last 3-4 years or so. Thanks again for your advice Doc!
 
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I can get that an orthotic could help change the way a foot functions, but what does that orthotic do to the rest of the body attached higher up the chain?

As I've mentioned before, I have $300 custom-casted orthotics (supposedly, you can't get any better than this). They were prescribed to remedy the Morton's Neuroma pain I deal(t) with, that is, take the pressure and load off my metatarsals so the nerves would have more room and not become pinched, etc, etc. (Note: Studies show the number one cause of MN is the types of shoes we wear. Those of us who have more narrow spacing between the toes are more prone or predisposed to developing MN. If we were left barefoot from birth, we would never have developed MN, save stepping on a rock or such.)

When I wore the prescribed orthotics in my ASICS Kayanos (the devil's spawn themselves), not only did the MN worsen, but my KNEES ached...so bad that I would have to ice after every run when I wore them.

Now, I am an overpronator too, both feet I've been told. I never had an injury or experienced pain anywhere in my body when I ran barefoot. Put me in overbearing, Maximalist Running Shoes (MRS everybody!) with or without the orthotics and I suffer injuries (various) and pain.

So my questions are: Why don't orthotics (even when prescribed) help everyone who wear them? Why didn't they help me? And why am I able to run barefoot successfully yet suffer in shoes and orthotics?
 
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After TJ's post I guess I should say I am not totally against orthotics, but I believe they are tools to help you correct a problem (say an injury) and are not a correction themselves (if that makes sense).

(PS, I also didn't mean to start a debate)
 
Hahaha! "For example, my right foot (the problematic one) will revert back to its collapsed position when I take a piss." This is me. I notice when I use the latrine my right foot really goes wonky. I also noticed that (remember I sit at home the majority of the day) I sit on the couch with my right leg propped up resting on my left ankle, which causes the right foot to rotate more towards the outside. Jeesh, I've been damaging myself by leaving the workforce and becoming a student/stay at home father. I am really going to start working on how I sit, stand, and walk and then eventually how I run. Oh, and this is the blog that gave me the idea about the duckfooted thing when doing squats. Thanks for the link Abide! You may have just really helped me out a ton.
 
I hope it helps you out some, its one of those things I have never had to deal with but it always looks painful when people run that way? At the very least lifting might become more comfortable.
 
I hope it helps you out some, its one of those things I have never had to deal with but it always looks painful when people run that way? At the very least lifting might become more comfortable.
It's been a relatively new problem for me, maybe the last 3 years or so. I was working on correcting it a while ago when all this pf and everything got so bad that I lost focus on fixing it. Now I am going to make sure to follow through and fix it. Hopefully doing squats and the other leg exercises while making sure I have the foot forward will help to strengthen the muscles faster than just walking and running alone. At least this gives me hope that I may get back to running again, and not just gym and biking.
 
Hey! Nothin' wrong with a lit' debate now and again. :smug:
 
Interesting. I agree that it's probably just habit at this point. I know when I walk in regular shoes I am quite noticeably duck-footed, and when I walk barefoot I am just slightly duck-footed. Although my foot mostly self-corrected, I think the remaining duck-footedness is definitely due to habit after years of walking that way.

I ran across this video a few months ago, and it brought up another point about walking duck-footed:



For me, if my feet are just slightly pointed outward like I habitually have them, I can bend my knees without them going inward, but if I force my feet to point completely straight, when I bend my knees they go inward, just like the model in the video. I'm able to use my deep hip rotators to rotate my thighs outward while standing (like the model did), but I still haven't figured out how you're supposed to keep them rotated that way while walking.

NickW, do you find it's also the case for you that your knees go inward when you bend them with your feet pointed completely straight?

One of the comments in the articles also mentioned hip rotation, but I wonder if it's this deep hip rotation that she is referring to, or a different kind of hip rotation:
Nice thought, but no explanation of how to do this in the post. The a lot of comments that miss the point. When you walk and run, if you have proper hip rotation your foot will be straight. Don’t just point your foot in to be straight. Rotate your hips. Watch little kids run. Their belly buttons swing left and right. That’s hip rotation. Your foot will land straight all by itself if you have proper hip rotation. Walk with a swagger!

Edit: Just realized I'm not supposed to be posting here if I'm not one of the docs! My apologies; I won't do it again!
 
Hi Nick,
...you can retrain the muscles so that you are not duckfooted anymore. The articles I had read said that your muscles have been trained with the out turned foot so you have to retrain them. I haven't always been duckfooted either.
You could try out Feldenkrais. This technique works wonders to change muscular habits. During a session the practitioner will propose tiny but inhabitual movements, which are giving clues to the brain how to function differently or more efficiently.
 
In this case I'm glad the rules are being broken. Good links from Abide and video from Mayka and now I need to look up Feldenkrais. Nick I am in the same boat, many similar conditions. Seems like I figure out one problem (knees) and another springs up (PF). You could be on to something here, the trick is going to be how to fix it without affecting something further up the leg. Speedy recovery to you.
 
TJ broke her own rules! ooohh i'm telling!

No, we can post in the Ask the Docs AFTER a Doc has answered. I should have noted that in my, uh, notes. :sorry: